Game Design for discs, courses

[Jessy]

I've been playing for a couple years, and recognize, now that I have a bunch of discs, and some ability to throw them so that they fly significantly differently from each other, that I feel like I'm playing a video game with cheat codes on. I've never gotten an ace, but getting into the basket in two or three shots, versus the six or so that was average for me when I started, has made the game into a significantly different experience. People who take the "sport" much more seriously than I do, have resembling opinions.

It's unrealistic to make holes longer, until we're living on another planet, because there are too many people on Earth, taking up room that courses could. And it takes too long to grow trees, to really "design" a course. All the courses I've been to seem like people just made paths in the woods that were already there. I like being in nature, but nature didn't design the funnest courses.

I think that taking off these cheat codes would make the game much more interesting. I just had this epiphany this morning, but my initial thoughts went something like:

• Take away the ability to use all discs from the start; come up with something that unlocks the ability to use more discs
• Unlock the ability to use your dominant hand, or be forced to use it as a punishment for I-don't-know-what-yet
• Before landing in the basket, force discs to land within larger areas than a basket, that are to as far as it, and score appropriately (got this idea from rock climbing routes + darts)

The only game addition that I've come up with, is "fast forward mode". Which just means I don't carry a bag, run between all of my throws (this works well but only at low-traffic courses), and aim to beat time, not score. From what I've seen, other people have independently figured out the same game.

Is there a list of aletrnate game designs somewhere?

 

[DavidSauls]

It's unrealistic to make holes longer, until we're living on another planet, because there are too many people on Earth, taking up room that courses could. And it takes too long to grow trees, to really "design" a course. All the courses I've been to seem like people just made paths in the woods that were already there. I like being in nature, but nature didn't design the funnest courses.

False. It's very realistic to make holes longer, if desired. Perhaps not at a particular course, but to make courses with longer holes. There is a phenomenal amount of unpeopled land on Earth.

It's true that it takes time to grow trees, but you can design by subtraction, too---carving a course out of existing trees, leaving the mature trees that are part of your design.

As for the rest, if just making the game harder is what you want, there are all sorts of ways. Play with 1 disc. Make that disc a putter. Play RIPT. Throw 2 shots from every lie, play the worst. And on and on and on.

Though I suspect you're in a tiny minority feeling that you're playing with cheat codes on. I won't until I'm keeping pace with the top players, which looks to be some future lifetime.

 

[Jessy]

There is a phenomenal amount of unpeopled land on Earth.

Commute time.

if just making the game harder is what you want

Hard is not necessarily fun. Fun is fun. It takes time to design fun, so I'd like to build on someone else's work if possible.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Sometimes I'll make a mark/dot on the scorecard for hitting the basket but not holing out on any shot. Each dot is worth a 1/3 of a throw. So every three dots is a one throw deduction in your total score.

 

[ru4por]

I am guessing you will get some fun and interesting responses from this, Jessy. I don't play video games, not even Atari when it came out. Honestly, it resembles my job far too much for me to ever consider it entertainment. I play disc golf to avoid sitting around inside....in fact, most of what I do for entertainment (outside concerts, sporting events...) revolves around getting outside and trying to move this round and aging body. I am sticking with the old school philosophy of grabbing my bag of discs, walking around trying to chase them down and throw them in a basket. Have fun brother, whatever does that for you should be the goal. (As long as it is not on my lawn)

 

[chosenmatrix]

Is this guy for realz? I hope this guy is real.

 

[DavidSauls]

Commute time.

My mistake. I thought you included the Earth in your initial statement. Where else are you commuting from?

 

[DavidSauls]

Sorry, I'm old and easily confused, especially by video games, moreso by video game terminology, and yet moreso by application of video game terminology to real life.

Your problem is that it only takes 2 or 3 throws to reach the basket, instead of 6 like it once did, but you don't want to make it harder?

Or you just looking for other ways to play with golf discs and baskets, that might be more fun than straight up disc golf?

If the latter, I can imagine a lot but haven't actually encountered many. RIPT, of course, incorporates some of the things you're talking about. I've seen people playing speed golf, at least on reasonably vacant courses. I once proposed a roller round, where every throw had to be a roller until you got into the 10-meter circle, but we never actually tried it. I've played a ton of 1 disc rounds.

Am I getting close?

 

[DougCrawford]

There is a Disc Golf card game that does exactly what you want-

https://infinitediscs.com/Products/Accessories/66/RIPT-Revenge

 

[Jessy]

Your problem is that it only takes 2 or 3 throws to reach the basket, instead of 6 like it once did, but you don't want to make it harder?

The reason it took me more throws because discs were relatively hard for me to use. Now that I've myelinated a bunch of relevant axons, the uncertainty and hilarity that used to ensue has diminished. If I had a dial to change the myelin density, I think that would be a reasonable solution, but nobody knows how to do that yet, and I don't know if that would actually be fun. Everybody is chasing flow, whether or not they realize it. My goal in all things is to increase the amount of time I'm in flow.

Or you just looking for other ways to play with golf discs and baskets, that might be more fun than straight up disc golf?

I like discs a lot; the baskets aren't as important to me. I want an activity that I can use as solitary or group meditation; Ultimate, for example, isn't what I'm after.

RIPT, of course, incorporates some of the things you're talking about.

I've never heard of it before this thread. I'd love to try it, but it's not in the App Store, and I can't support something like that not being digital. Do you think Innova would like me to make it into an app? Is there a breakdown on Android/iOS marketshare for disc golfers? I don't do Android, but I would share my source code with someone who does.

 

[DougCrawford]

Whats wrong with it not being digital? Kind of confused on that... the discs arent digital after all....

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Play safari disc golf?

take it to the city, indoors, object course parks?

 

[djcadence]

I have a deck of RIPT cards and they do add a fun element when you want to change things up. I do think it would be cool to have a digital version where you could play against the cpu for those rounds you play by yourself, and be randomly delt a challenge. I also would like to have an app that would randomly pick the tee and basket position on each hole, for those rounds where you want to change things up!

 

[Jessy]

Whats wrong with it not being digital?

It's not a matter of right or wrong. It's this sort of thing.

the discs arent digital after all....

I consider that a drawback, but a limitation of technology that we just have to deal with for now. It won't last forever; some kind portable 3D printing will probably be the next step. If the printer is smaller and lighter than a bag (Elon Musk has the power situation underway), you'll only need enough plastic for one disc (and maybe a backup), plus however many chunks you take out of it in a round.

 

[chosenmatrix]

The reason it took me more throws because discs were relatively hard for me to use. Now that I've myelinated a bunch of relevant axons, the uncertainty and hilarity that used to ensue has diminished. If I had a dial to change the myelin density, I think that would be a reasonable solution, but nobody knows how to do that yet, and I don't know if that would actually be fun. Everybody is chasing flow, whether or not they realize it. My goal in all things is to increase the amount of time I'm in flow.

I like discs a lot; the baskets aren't as important to me. I want an activity that I can use as solitary or group meditation; Ultimate, for example, isn't what I'm after.

I've never heard of it before this thread. I'd love to try it, but it's not in the App Store, and I can't support something like that not being digital. Do you think Innova would like me to make it into an app? Is there a breakdown on Android/iOS marketshare for disc golfers? I don't do Android, but I would share my source code with someone who does.

Dang it.... I was really hoping.

 

[ru4por]

These are the kids that will be in charge of things in the future.....and taking care of us geezers. :|

 

[cmcolomb]

sounds like someone needs to pick the latest edition deck of Ript... not an endorsement, more of a sarcastic suggestion as I, personally, never get tired of being decent at disc golf

 

[Broken Shoulder]

I like turtles.

 

[cmcolomb]

after re-reading some other posts, it sounds like Jessy needs some variation in his mundane round.. I like the idea of a roller-round - so maybe Jessy can think about trying different shots on every hole (anny only, flick shots, putter only rounds, etc.)

+1 for the Safari idea as well... make a new course, draw new lines, have a good time

no peer pressure... but maybe indulge in an adult refreshment or two to assist in your meditation in nature.

 

[jeverett]

The reason it took me more throws because discs were relatively hard for me to use. Now that I've myelinated a bunch of relevant axons, the uncertainty and hilarity that used to ensue has diminished. If I had a dial to change the myelin density, I think that would be a reasonable solution, but nobody knows how to do that yet, and I don't know if that would actually be fun. Everybody is chasing flow, whether or not they realize it. My goal in all things is to increase the amount of time I'm in flow.

Hi Jessy,

This has been an interesting discussion so far, and you've brought up a number of topics on game design and gamification that I thought were worth exploring.

On the topic of (cognitive) flow, as I suspect you're aware, flow primarily comes down to efficient learning and rapid feedback (along with how well an individuals' skills match up with what they're being challenged to do). Sports, in general, are very good at giving constant visual feedback: in disc golf, we generally get to watch the disc for its whole flight (we get to observe the result of our 'decision'). Sports, like many other types of games, are also often very good at giving the participant lots and lots of useful data: in disc golf, we're essentially making one singular 'decision' (picking a disc to throw, and a throwing technique to use) over and over again, each time giving us new data (that plugs nicely into our already-established structure of the overall experience of 'disc golf'). That said, yes, in disc golf there is some down time in between 'decisions': we have to go walk to our disc. In casual play, a pretty easy way to add more decisions (and feedback) per walk is to throw multiple discs. Yes, in competitive play or on crowded courses that's not an option, but if you're looking for a zen-like focused state while playing disc golf, you're probably not involved in tourney play anyway.

The other topic you're touching on is the idea of uncertainty. I suspect that you've probably come across various definitions for the term 'game', which typically include some requirement that "the ultimate outcome of the activity must be uncertain". i.e. this is the difference between 'puzzles' and 'games'. In a puzzle, the participant knows the ultimate outcome of the activity (e.g. it will look like the picture on the box). Because games, in general, provide the player with some measure of control over the outcome of the activity (i.e. as the player's skill at the activity increases, they actually perform better), with practice games by design are going to slowly shift from being 'games' to being 'puzzles'. For example, imagine playing a round of disc golf against a player vastly better or worse than yourself. The ultimate outcome of that event is not particularly uncertain anymore: both participants can be quite confident as to the eventual outcome even before engaging in the activity. i.e. the activity is more like a puzzle than a game, where the experience is more about simply putting the right pieces in the right places, rather than a challenge where you don't know if you will be successful, or not. I don't know if you've read Raph Koster (A Theory of Fun for Game Design) or not, but he talks a lot about the finite lifespan of games: all games will inevitably trend toward puzzles as the participant learns what there is to be learned from the activity.

Related to this, however, I definitely think it's worth mentioning that people don't all 'play' games for the same reasons. I don't know if you've ever heard of Richard Bartle, but he did some excellent foundational work on what motivates gameplay. He found that there are four general motivators: We 'play' in order to achieve, explore, socialize, and compete. All of these involve, at some level, learning. The implication here, then, is that if you're feeling like you're not getting adequate learning/feedback out of the experience of disc golf, maybe try engaging in it in one of those other ways? For example, lately I do a whole lot more thinking about course design than I do playing in tourneys. I feel like, of all the areas of disc golf to 'explore', course design has the most depth and complexity left in it (for me).

Was any of that useful? I'd be happy to chat more, too, if you'd like.