How are holes measured?

[BogeyNoMore]

A sighting compass, 100' tape, and super basic trigonometry can be used to accurately measure water carries, or super long undulating holes that really make a wheel lie.

A wheel is generally OK unless there's a significant valley, or the terrain is particularly uneven.

One hole at Mount Airy comes to mind (#17 IIRC?): it features an undulating fairway with several peaks and troughs between the tee and basket. Measuring that hole by wheel would probably double it's distance.

A wheel would be useless for courses like Etowah in GA, Richmond Hill in NC, or some of the Courses in KY and WV.

FWIW - I love valley shots. I find them aesthetically pleasing, and I love the way the offer birdie opportunities for hitting your line, or make you pay dearly for bad tree kicks.

 

[Jay Dub]

#17 at Airy is correct. There's a video of Wysocki parking that hole a couple years ago.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

A wheel is generally OK unless there's a significant valley, or the terrain is particularly uneven.

One hole at Mount Airy comes to mind (#17 IIRC?): it features an undulating fairway with several peaks and troughs between the tee and basket. Measuring that hole by wheel would probably double it's distance.

A wheel would be useless for courses like Etowah in GA, Richmond Hill in NC, or some of the Courses in KY and WV.

FWIW - I love valley shots. I find them aesthetically pleasing, and I love the way the offer birdie opportunities for hitting your line, or make you pay dearly for bad tree kicks.

A wheel is plenty good enough for general disc golf use. I'm faster and more accurate with paces than with a wheel though. They are simply not useful for precision, especially in a natural setting.

Valley shots present an interesting challenge for anyone who wants to make accurate signs. Given the proper valley, a hole that plays as 350' for a 350' thrower can play as 500' for a 250' thrower. How do you measure that?

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Valley shots present an interesting challenge for anyone who wants to make accurate signs. Given the proper valley, a hole that plays as 350' for a 350' thrower can play as 500' for a 250' thrower. How do you measure that?

I'd measure it "as a disc flies" along the intended fairway, which would be 350 ft in your example.
It's obvious that play as much longer if somehow you end up at the bottom of the ravine.

I myself am noodle arm, and I'm not parking a 350' hole. But I'd never expect such a hole to be listed as 500 feet just because I can't clear the valley, nor would I expect it to be a Par 4 because of that.

That's a great example of where it pays to have a little extra distance. The player that can throw 350 has a shot a 2. The player that throws 250 at best has a shot at a 3, and more likely a 4 or 5.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

I'd measure it "as a disc flies" along the intended fairway, which would be 350 ft in your example.
It's obvious that play as much longer if somehow you end up at the bottom of the ravine.

I myself am noodle arm, and I'm not parking a 350' hole. But I'd never expect such a hole to be listed as 500 feet just because I can't clear the valley, nor would I expect it to be a Par 4 because of that.

That's a great example of where it pays to have a little extra distance. The player that can throw 350 has a shot a 2. The player that throws 250 at best has a shot at a 3, and more likely a 4 or 5.

I would list it as 350' as well. But I asked how you would measure it if you were making signs and had a hankering for precision.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Assuming survey is too expensive.
Probably a range finder and maybe use Google Earth to corroborate.

 

[Armus Patheticus]

Assuming survey is too expensive.
Probably a range finder and maybe use Google Earth to corroborate.

An accurate and precise survey can be done by anyone, and for less cost than that of a rangefinder capable of 350' shots.

 

[ToddL]

You can get a good rangefinder for $80. Or a good measuring wheel for $40. Your local club should own both of them (and should buy them if they don't own them yet). Wheel and Laser on flat land. Laser the valleys. Wheel the hillsides. Pretty simple.

 

[DavidSauls]

Just had this debate yesterday, while measuring a hole. We generally measure them by the shortest reasonable route---not a lucky sneak-through-the-trees shot, but a route a player might choose an execute. Sometimes the most common route is longer---particularly where bigger arms hyzer around obstacles, rather than take the shorter, tighter path.

With the footnote that where elevation is involved---which it is on most holes I'm measuring---exact distance is less important.

As for device, we use a 300' tape, pulled tight. It ought to be pretty accurate, certainly more precise than any thrower needs.

 

[sisyphus]

We've used a 300' tape as well, as straight to the basket as possible, unless there's a mando dogleg. Doing this on a 40 year old course will show you all that you need to know about mismeasuring doglegs and 'reasonable lines of flight'. Once the trees die, new lines open up, etc., that original measurement can be WAY off.

Example: my first ace at Woodland Mound was on a hole listed at 320'. It crosses a significant valley, and the Emerald Ash Borer had just killed a couple of trees that used to force a left to right line. Since I don't throw that far very often, I wasn't surprised when we measured to see that it was shorter. But the amount! 254' is JUST a bit shorter than 320'. They had to have wheeled to the bottom of the ravine way to the left of the current, wide open line, in order to be off by 66'!

 

[Steve West]

I'm baffled that when everyone determines how far they can throw, they measure from point A to point B on a straight line; yet, when some want to measure a hole, they switch to measuring the arc-length of the flight of the disc.

Just stop it. The length of a hole is how far it is from the tee to the target. NOT how far the disc flies along its route.

A big hyzer in an open field that swings way out and comes back and lands 300 feet away is exactly the same as a big hyzer that has to fly around some trees or a mando pole to land in the same spot. They are both 300-foot throws.

No one ever says "my disc traveled along a 327 foot curving path". They say "my throw went 300 feet".

The only exception to measuring the direct straight-line distance to the target is if the disc is forced to LAND somewhere off the AB line before getting to the target. Like going around an 800-foot wide lake. Or a mando that is so far off-line the disc cannot possible fight back to the target. In that case, measure straight-line to the landing place, then straight-line to the target.

 

[BillFleming]

Distance is weird. While there is the 'true' distance - which is the measured distance from the tee to the basket - there is also the 'plays like' distance. You can get a range finder for ball golf (I wish they had the option to measure in feet instead of just yards -but I can do the calculation)....and some tell you the 'true' and the 'plays like' distances. For example, you have a downhill hole, the 'true' distance might be 400 feet, but since it is downhill, it plays like 350 feet. And then there are local conditions, you might have a throw over water.....water can affect the flight of a disc (I learned in ball golf, a water carry can take about 10 yards off the ball). You might have a 300 foot 'true' distance hole, but the hole always has a headwind....that might make it play like a 375 foot hole. It is always much better to have a 'visual feel' for distance....but knowing the 'true' distance can help in disc selection as long as you take in the other variables.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I learned in ball golf, a water carry can take about 10 yards off the ball.

I'd be very interested to hear more about this, especially an explanation of the science behind it. Not being sarcastic in any way.

 

[Rastnav]

I'd be very interested to hear more about this, especially an explanation of the science behind it. Not being sarcastic in any way.

I've played a lot of ball golf, and never heard of this or noticed it to be true. It seems like the kind of thing that is good advice for the average golfer though (who has historically tended not to know their actually carry distances very well), so I could imagine it making it into some set of "rules of thumb".

But, I can also imagine certain scenarios where this might be true. Specifically places that usually have low humidity. I'm not sure what the science is, but I could imagine specific cases where higher relative humidity over a lake increasing drag and decreasing carry, all else being equal.

I think the application to disc golf wouldn't be straight forward though.

Also, I never imagined this "straight" a question would elicit such an interesting conversation. It's a measure of where disc golf is as a sport, I think. The Royal and Ancient and the USGA tell you how to measure the distance of a hole, but 120+ years ago, ball golf still hadn't codified things like 18 holes per course (and I imagine not distance measurements either).

And I have to say, that "still developing" feel of the sport is one of the things that's really attractive.

 

[Jay Dub]

I'd be very interested to hear more about this, especially an explanation of the science behind it. Not being sarcastic in any way.

My guess is this is just a saying in ball golf whenever your shot comes up short and lands in the water. I think it comes with a wink and a nudge.

That's my guess.

Like in disc golf the trees move to get in your way.

 

[Steve West]

There are a few things which might make the disc fly less far over water.

Water is always at the lowest point. If the wind is blowing, the bottom layers will flow down the bank onto the surface of the lake, then up the other bank. So, with a tailwind, the disc may get pushed down (or have less air speed and less lift) at first. With a headwind, the disc may get pushed nose-up causing it to fall off the air.

Perhaps water evaporates from the lake, creating higher humidity over the water which would result in less lift. (Water vapor is thinner than nitrogen.)

Maybe the condensation of water vapor out of the air onto the surface of the lake actually creates a lower-humidity environment, thickening the air and causing more drag.

Maybe condensation removing water from the air creates a downward flow toward the water surface.

Perhaps the cooling effect of the water could cause air to cool, become denser, and sink toward the lake.

Maybe ground effects are reduced as water just get pushed out to the side rather than building up a cushion under the disc.

Not all of these can be true, and perhaps none have any real effect. But, it would seem presumptuous to dismiss the idea out of hand.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Like in disc golf the trees move to get in your way.

Those damned trees are wicked fast. Took me years before I actually caught one in the act of slapping down my shot. When I confronted it, it just said,

Yeah? And what're you gonna do about it?"

...then laughed at me.


*true story*

 

[Armus Patheticus]

You can get a good rangefinder for $80. Or a good measuring wheel for $40. Your local club should own both of them (and should buy them if they don't own them yet). Wheel and Laser on flat land. Laser the valleys. Wheel the hillsides. Pretty simple.

The existence of those golf-style rangefinders slipped my mind. Are they accurate and precise? I'm accustomed to using Leica distos or similar for building and geological surveying, but it seems I'm also out of touch with their current prices which have apparently come down dramatically since I bought my tools.

I enjoy measuring and surveying but this talk about precision is really quite silly in practical disc golf terms. If I were building a new course now I'd simply step off the distances and round to the nearest ten. It's amusing to see tee signs displaying false precision when they were measured by gps or wheel.

The route that gets measured is simply not important to me, but apparently the distance on the sign plays a big part in the emotional experience for many players. Since that's true, I reckon course builders should do the kind thing and provide that information. I suspect though that some may find a course without posted distances or par to be surprisingly refreshing.

 

[BillFleming]

I'd be very interested to hear more about this, especially an explanation of the science behind it. Not being sarcastic in any way.

It was something I was taught in ball golf. There was a hole, where there were two options...straight over water or along-side the water. Both ways were fairly direct shots towards the green, but the overwater option was the best choice. I found my over water shot always ended up just missing land. But going the other route, my ball always landed (before rolling) past what would have been the edge of the water. The difference was only about 10 yards or so, not a great difference. The explanation I got was that the air is cooler over water and that caused the loss of distance. The same thing happens in the winter time, the golf ball goes shorter distance than it does in warmer weather.

I know it's not a scientific explanation....but it's what I observed over the many years of playing golf and what was explained to me by a golf teaching pro.

 

[BillFleming]

The existence of those golf-style rangefinders slipped my mind. Are they accurate and precise? I'm accustomed to using Leica distos or similar for building and geological surveying, but it seems I'm also out of touch with their current prices which have apparently come down dramatically since I bought my tools.

I enjoy measuring and surveying but this talk about precision is really quite silly in practical disc golf terms. If I were building a new course now I'd simply step off the distances and round to the nearest ten. It's amusing to see tee signs displaying false precision when they were measured by gps or wheel.

The route that gets measured is simply not important to me, but apparently the distance on the sign plays a big part in the emotional experience for many players. Since that's true, I reckon course builders should do the kind thing and provide that information. I suspect though that some may find a course without posted distances or par to be surprisingly refreshing.

Stepping off distance is great for flat courses , but when you add a gully or other features into it, stepping off distances just doesn't work. Even uphills and downhills will be inaccurate as strides tend to shorten uphill and increase downhill. Accuracy in measurements is going to differ because most courses are not built by professionals with a lot of equipment. The club I'm part of is lucky in that we have a member who has access to quality equipment, like the stuff you see engineers using....he has a computer that reads information from a unit he carries to each tee pad and basket location. Very basically, he puts the unit on the tee pad, pushes a button - that registers on the main unit - then he goes to the basket location, does the same thing and he has the distance and elevation change recorded for that hole. He does all the holes that way. That creates a huge accurate 'map' but the equipment needed is expensive and out of the reach of probably most course builders. It would be nice if courses listed how the holes were measured, then the player could look at the yardage, look at the hole, and decide how close/accurate it was.