Lets Honestly Discuss Tourney Money/Fees

[sidewinder22]

Its all about the rating.....gotta have that ratings addiction....the pdga has created a bunch of crackheads who are addicted to their ratings....brilliant marketing scheme and why they monopolize the sport over unsanctioneds

Hi, my name is sw22....

Americans are addicted numbers, like das Germans to David Hasselhoff, ja!

 

[E_Rock25]

Ok so I am going to try to put together what I would do for my fictional tournament. This fictional tournament would have 72 players with 3 divisions, beginner, amateur and pro and would be a c tear.

20 Beginner players with an entry fee of $15 equal $300
32 Amateur players with an entry fee of $20 equal $620
20 Pro players with an entry fee of $30 equal $600
Hopefully I would obtain $300 in sponsorship from local businesses
With a total of $1820

PDGA Total Fee $288
The Discraft 100 disc tournament package example they have on there website $550 I would get the $200 D-Dollars from spending more than $500
Miscellaneous cost $200 part of this would be for the TD for there hard work and the rest could go to printing costs and other miscellaneous costs.

That leaves $1038

I would only give prizes to the top three from each division.

Pro 1st $250
Pro 2nd $100
Pro 3rd $50

Am 1st $100 + hoodie, hat and stickers
Am 2nd $50 + Rapid Dry Tee and stickers
Am 3rd $25 + Towel and stickers

Beginner 1st 1 Weekender Bag 1 D NUKE 1 D Avenger SS 1 D Buzzz 1 D Soft Magnet + a fleece hat and stickers
Beginner 2nd 3 tournament stamp discs a hat and stickers
Beginner 3rd 2 tournament discs and stickers

The last $463 would go back into the course.

Entry brake downs as follow
Beginner $8 for players pack, $3.70 for PDGA fees and $3.30 to the course.
Amateur $8 for players packs, $3.70 for PDGA fees, $3.30 to the course and $5 to the prize money.
Pro $8 for players pack, $3.70 for PDGA fees, $3.30 to the course and $15 to prize money.

Beginner 54% players pack, 25% to PDGA fees and 21% to the course, TD and miscellaneous costs
Amateur 40% players pack, 18% to PDGA fees and 17% to the course and 25% to prize pool, TD and miscellaneous costs

Pro 27% players pack, 12% to PDGA fees and 11% to the course and 50% to prize pool, TD and miscellaneous costs

Each player would get a disc a sticker and a bottle of water. There would be an optional CTP and Ace Pot for a dollar per player. I would also have grilled food and pop for sale as well as the rest of the tournament stamp disc's. I think this could work.

What do you guys think?

 

[optidiscic]

I like the way u think.....what I wanna know is would the pdga allow it and how would u prevent sandbagging as all the avg pros and avg ams might be tempted to play down a division

 

[E_Rock25]

I like the way u think.....what I wanna know is would the pdga allow it and how would u prevent sandbagging as all the avg pros and avg ams might be tempted to play down a division

PDGA might not allow it, if they didn't that would just be another $288 for prizes.

Unfortunately there will always be "sandbagers" I would hope that people would play the right devision but there is not much you can do if they don't.

 

[DavidSauls]

Honest question: what is the challenge to offering some basic information about payout plans at the registration desk before the first round starts? You probably won't have actual dollar amounts for how much nth place in division x will win, but I don't understand the obstacles to sharing the basics, like what percent of the field you're going to pay out, what kind of pay tables you're going to use, etc., at the registration desk.

Not difficult. Not terribly necessary around here, since it's pretty much the same everywhere. We're paying 100% (players packs & prizes, at retail), using standard PDGA payout charts. Oftentimes around here the players pack is a voucher, so it's value is obvious. Any added pro cash is bound to be advertised in advance.

More details about tournament expenses (asked by ERock) are a different thing. It takes me a week or two after the tournament to work it out. There are a lot of variables; no idea how many players will show up, and in which divisions; we're likely to get contributions to CTPs on the morning of the tournament; don't know how many meals we'll sell or give away, and how much food we'll have left over; don't know how much of our merchandise we'll give in payouts, sell outside of payouts, or be left with, and how to divide the expense among them.

And I don't think many people care, and I'm not sure it's their business, anyway. On the other side of the coin, when I attend a tournament I don't care about the club's or TD's expenses or deals he's cut with vendors; only how much the entry fee, and (to a minor degree) what the payouts will be.

Finally, with a zillion things to do on the morning of a tournament, this would be near the zillionth in priority.

 

[jtencer]

If I ran a multiple division PDGA Sanctioned tournament for $10 a person and deducted $2 per person for the per player PDGA fee and deducted another $3 per player for state series fees then $1 per player for the sanctioning agreement (assuming 50+ players) and advertised that the remaining money from the tournament would be used for finishing the installation of cement tee pads and there would be no payout and the reward for doing well is bragging rights and hopefully a good rated round(s), do you think I would fill the tournament?

I'd play that event. If this were a common format, I would probably join the PDGA. I've never played enough PDGA tournaments before to make it worth the money (That and the whole bit about how I don't think they know the best direction for the sport thing).

 

[Dave242]

Ok so I am going to try to put together what I would do for my fictional tournament. This fictional tournament would have 72 players with 3 divisions, beginner, amateur and pro and would be a c tear.

20 Beginner players with an entry fee of $15 equal $300
32 Amateur players with an entry fee of $20 equal $620
20 Pro players with an entry fee of $30 equal $600
Hopefully I would obtain $300 in sponsorship from local businesses
With a total of $1820

Not a bad plan overall, but how do you know you will fill and will you cap each division to make sure that this works? If you don't fill exactly as planned your whole scheme will need to get juggled. If you do not fill your fixed costs remain basically the same and your income is reduced.

Do you really think 20 pro's will come with only the top 3 places making any money (and 3rd place only nets $20).

One other detail that will chew up cash - you will need to buy 5 hoodies for this event as you will need a S M L XL & XXL since you do not know before hand the size of the player who will win 1st place in Am.

Not trying to be a downer, just a couple thoughts of hopefully constructive thoughts.

 

[DavidSauls]

Boy, I wasted a lot of words on that last post. Summarized:

It's easy to publish in advance the formula by which payouts will be made.

It's difficult and impractical to publish the actual expenses, or percentages as to where entry fees will go, in advance.

 

[E_Rock25]

Not a bad plan overall, but how do you know you will fill and will you cap each division to make sure that this works? If you don't fill exactly as planned your whole scheme will need to get juggled. If you do not fill your fixed costs remain basically the same and your income is reduced.

Do you really think 20 pro's will come with only the top 3 places making any money (and 3rd place only nets $20).

One other detail that will chew up cash - you will need to buy 5 hoodies for this event as you will need a S M L XL & XXL since you do not know before hand the size of the player who will win 1st place in Am.

Not trying to be a downer, just a couple thoughts of hopefully constructive thoughts.

First - this is a theoretical layout. I will do much more planning when I run my first real tournament next spring. (this fictional tounament is kinda my start point) I would like to make sure that I filled half the field at least with pre-registration and maybe make an extra $5 cost for not doing so. The acctual number of players in each devision could be a bit flexable as well. There is $463 for the course that could be used to cove some of the costs if the tournament does not fill. I am a Graphic Designer and Marketer so I hope I would be able to promote and advertise for the tournament well enough to fill the 72 slots.

I don't know if 20 "Pros" would come out for only 3 places payed. I am useing my experince with running snowboard events to judge this because I have no experince running a DG event. I would guess that most of the Pro devision would not actualy be touring pro's but better regional players that want a chance at some decent cash. Its not a lot of money but it is something. This my be a high hope for a "Pro" turn out but like I said it is just a starting point for my planning.

I would be getting the hoodie form discraft with the D-Dollars and would probably just go with a Large. We do this for snowboard events and it does not seem to have been a problem but I may buy a few sizes for extra prizes.

Thanks for the constructive criticism, keep it coming it will help me make my plan better.

 

[krupicka]

Getting players to pre-register has always been a challenge. Only for well-established highly sought after events, do you get pre-registration early. Typically players don't pre-register (if they do at all) until the 10 weather report comes out. Based on my experience, most of them still don't pre-reg until the Thursday / Friday before the event.

If you are counting on looking at pre-registration numbers to make any sort of decision on investment in prizes, etc. Forget about it.

 

[E_Rock25]

Getting players to pre-register has always been a challenge. Only for well-established highly sought after events, do you get pre-registration early. Typically players don't pre-register (if they do at all) until the 10 weather report comes out. Based on my experience, most of them still don't pre-reg until the Thursday / Friday before the event.

If you are counting on looking at pre-registration numbers to make any sort of decision on investment in prizes, etc. Forget about it.

I do understand that it is a hard thing to do but it can be done. We get quite a few Pre Regestations in the snowboarding events and the kind of crowd is similar to DGers.

I do know that it is hard though. I am running an Ace Race this weekend and I had no pre registered players till last Monday. Even though I had pre registration available for 3 months.

 

[DavidSauls]

You might bring some fresh ideas from snowboarding....but I'd caution against relying on them.

I have no idea about snowboarding, but I'd think there are far fewer venues, and thus events, than disc golf. Certainly a shorter season most places.

Disc golf has its own culture to keep in mind. The addiction to payouts is one. For example, as others have hinted, if you pay out 3 places you're very unlikely to get 20 Pros. 5 or 6 is more like it. Maybe less. Unless you're doing something extraordinary, outside of payouts, or throwing a bunch of extra cash into the payout.

That goes to the pre-registration, too. If an event has a history of filling, people will pre-register. If it doesn't, few will. You can hedge this a bit with extra players pack to those who pre-register, or a penalty for those who don't. (But adjust your financial figures accordingly, and it's just a guess as to what the result will be).

 

[smyith]

i think it may be more interesting and satisfy both camps if you did something more like paying out the top 2rd up until 10th place. after that payouts just get fatter for the 10.

curiosity question:
how do payouts work in ball golf am and pro?

 

[DavidSauls]

curiosity question:
how do payouts work in ball golf am and pro?

Don't know about Am, but Pro is entirely different from disc golf.

Disc golf, players are essentially playing for each other's money. Gambling. Ball golf, they're playing for outside money, because there are millions of spectators and people buying expensive golf products.

Thus, in Ball Golf you have to qualify to be a Pro. In Disc Golf we push people to play Pro.

 

[E_Rock25]

You might bring some fresh ideas from snowboarding....but I'd caution against relying on them.

I have no idea about snowboarding, but I'd think there are far fewer venues, and thus events, than disc golf. Certainly a shorter season most places.

Disc golf has its own culture to keep in mind. The addiction to payouts is one. For example, as others have hinted, if you pay out 3 places you're very unlikely to get 20 Pros. 5 or 6 is more like it. Maybe less. Unless you're doing something extraordinary, outside of payouts, or throwing a bunch of extra cash into the payout.

That goes to the pre-registration, too. If an event has a history of filling, people will pre-register. If it doesn't, few will. You can hedge this a bit with extra players pack to those who pre-register, or a penalty for those who don't. (But adjust your financial figures accordingly, and it's just a guess as to what the result will be).

Thanks Dave, I am not relying on the snowboard experince but it is all I have to work from other than some online research I have done on Dg tournaments and the tournaments I have attended.

I need to do a lot more work and I do have some connections in the Minnesota DG community that will help me. From what I have seen I can draw quite a few comparasents to Snowboarding though.
1. Payouts unfoutunatly drive attendance for the most part.
2. Players don't really Pre-Regester without an encentive to do so.
3. There are always competitors who compeat below there ability to have a better chance of winning.
4. There are many variables that need to be looked into that pertain to attendance and how things will be funded.
5. The culture is unique and diverse

this list could go on....

I do have the pleasure of knowing Cale Leiviska and playing rounds with him here and there. I would like to try to get him to come out and do I clinic. In snowboarding if you can get a pro to come out and judge an event or do a clinc of some sort it really helps attendance and I think the same would be true for DG.

I would also try to do some more original things at the tournament in order to draw more people.
1. Live music
2. All the extra dg and some non dg games that could bring whole families out to enjoy the day.
3. Maybe have a beer tent. I work for a beer distributor and could probubly work this out as long as the city was ok with it.
4. If the event is two days offer cheap camping and Glow rounds.

This list will be added to as well.

 

[Todd Wiley]

Alrighty, I will admit, I haven't read the entire thread, but I will offer up the format of the events I hold.

Non-PDGA sanctioned Events - (I've never hosted a PDGA sanctioned event and prolly never will)

I hosted 3 Saturday events this year. 1 was a Discraft Ace Race, it was my largest event in the two years I have been TDing. The other two events were Fundraising Events for the club/local courses.

I use a 3 division system; Open, Recreational, Youth. Separate divisions for Men and Women.

Open - Ages 16+ (Cash Prize)
Recreational - Ages 16+ (Merchandise Prize)
Youth - Ages 15- (Merchandise Prize)

I had a $10 entry fee for all divisions. Recreational and Youth participants received a "Disc of Choice" - I had new DX and Pro D discs for them to pick from. Open participants played for cash payouts based on amount of participation. I also had a few CTP prizes and held mini games (Ring of Fire, Putting Challenge) while I compiled scores after the rounds.

I think I had 15 or 16 players throughout my divisions. 8 players signed up for Youth or Recreational Divisions. The rest were guys playing in Open.

To break down the numbers for you. I spent roughly $100 on prizes (mostly discs for youth and rec). I took in roughly $150 for entry. The club was reimbursed $80 from youth and rec entry fees. $2 from each Open Division entry also went directly to the club for reimbursement. I paid out 80% to the Open Division players. A whopping $56 dollars paid out 1-3 (1st - $25, 2nd - $18, 3rd - $13) with 7 guys playing in Open. The club received $14 from those Open entries. Total Received by Club. $94... the club took a loss because I had discs leftover for Youth and Rec entries and with no Pre-registered players, it was tough to guess how many discs were needed. However, I also was taking donations and held a raffle to raise funds for the local courses which netted around $50 that day.

Every event I hold, I put in tons of time to make it enjoyable and fun for everybody who wants to participate. I try to make sure that every rec and youth player goes home with something. The guys around here who play in Open, well, most of them play for the competition, but a little bit of cash doesn't hurt... none of them would qualify for Pro status in the PDGA.....

Bottom Line - You don't need the PDGA sanction to hold a quality event. I don't think PDGA sanctioning would entice more players to my events. And yes, you can hold events on a shoestring budget....you don't need thousands of dollars in disc merchandise.

 

[Sadjo]

Thanks Dave, I am not relying on the snowboard experince but it is all I have to work from other than some online research I have done on Dg tournaments and the tournaments I have attended.

I would also try to do some more original things at the tournament in order to draw more people.
1. Live music
2. All the extra dg and some non dg games that could bring whole families out to enjoy the day.
3. Maybe have a beer tent. I work for a beer distributor and could probubly work this out as long as the city was ok with it.
4. If the event is two days offer cheap camping and Glow rounds.

This list will be added to as well.

I've had professional Disc Dog teams come to some of my tournaments and perform over lunch. Players always enjoyed that. We also set up Kan Jam one time.

Setting those little extras is always nice and help cement you and your event as a must attend tournament.

 

[nstraz]

Maine Players Tour

Since I'm from one of those states where most events are non-PDGA I thought I'd throw in my experience. In Maine we have the Maine Players Tour which is the dominant tournament series in the state. We keep the money in the division for payouts. Every course charges greens fees so the venue does get paid.

MPT Charter.

As an example, here are the details for this year's event at Cranberry Valley.
Event info
Results with payouts

Poke around the rest of the site if you are interested. I'll try to answer questions people have here, but I didn't really read much of the thread.

 

[ratskrad]

But they have retail value (which is what the value of the players' pack in based on).....the price of the haircut.


If I was at the cash register paying for a haircut and someone jumped in and said "hey give me that $15 in cash you're holding for this $15 coupon" I would check with the cashier. Assuming it was a valid coupon she would say they would accept the coupon, so I would have no problem swapping the cash for the coupon. So, maybe the coupon does have cash value.

vouchers which get you something entirely for free may be counted by the TD as having the full retail value of the product.

$$ off coupons must be used to have any worth. As such, they have no value at the bottom of a player's pack, and can't be included as part of the total prize $$ for the tournament.