Lets Honestly Discuss Tourney Money/Fees

[optidiscic]

This topic keeps popping up in various threads and it's a definite hot button issue. There is great debate on who should get the money. Where it should come from. Who pays what. What is done with my entry fee. What do I deserve. Pros vs Ams. The AM Scam. Players vs PDGA. Who's profiting...is anyone profiting? I really want this discussion to be loose and honest but on track as a way to educate and discuss the topic...too many misperceptions and not enough answers.

 

[optidiscic]

My IDEAL scenario is as follows.
AMs should receive a decent players pack and a free lunch with entry.....you should be paying to participate in an event and some money should be spent on the event...so drinks, food, festival atmosphere, etc...this is where I think some of my money should go. I should feel like I got something for my entry even if I finish dead last (which I have done) I also think the fun games Ring of Fire, ace pots, CTP, radar gun your drive speed, distance competiton, etc. can all be included in the entry fee and add to the fun of an event. The day should be fun and the actual tournament should be centerpiece of a larger event.
A portion of my cash can go towards pros and am winners but I better feel like I attended an event and didnt show up and gambled my money away at the park against much better competition. I do that every wed at doubles.

Pros should pay a bit more of an entry (I prefer the ratings to entry fee slope system where a higher rated player pays a bit more and the lower rated pays less....to a degree nothing outlandish but a guy rated 920 should not be paying the same as a 1000 rated guy)...I don't mind some AM cash funding the Pro purse as long as my initial demands are met.
I would prefer less divisions and simply have M/F open, masters over 50, AM and novice.....if you used the slope to rating/fee method a lot of this bagging would end and guys who suck like me would not bitch about the 975 guy playing AM as I know he payed more
I would also simply payout/recognize the best round of a player over 60, best junior score, etc. (much like running races do....seems a simple way to include those who cant realistically compete in the actual division)
An actual sponsor related to disc golf with merchandising rights for the festival would be ideal...local sponsors dont really gain anything from Dgers....why should the funeral home fund a tourney where everyone in it are from out of town and wont be buried here......local sponsors makes no sense but DG related does IMHO
If there is a true festival atmosphere, a decent lunch, sloped entry fees and a decent players pack then AMS should not bitch about the low payout and the shallow payout (I won't pay deep)
Pros would get a decent payout as well but I would pay the course/club first and then the pros....No sense in doing all this work and then watching the money leave town in the hands of a bunch of snots who will bash my course on facebook and complain that the food wasnt vegan etc...

This is my fantasy ideal world....nothings perfect and I'm still learning all there is to know...all the events I have attended have been decent...I don't play to win (rarely place) so I rarely feel the pain of "but I won why don't I get 10 free discs"

Feel free to poke holes in my dream

 

[bradharris]

My ideal is very different. There are age/gender protected divisions only. All males in the 18-40 bracket play in one "open" division. There is no gambling, the entry fee goes towards a nice player pack, lunch, trophies, etc. If there is some extra sponsor cash, pay that out to the top few finishers in the open division. I really dislike the "gambling" aspect of putting entry fees into payouts.

Higher level events need more sponsor (or even spectator) cash to pay the true "pros." But at the lower level local events, I think having a "pro" division is very much a misnomer.

 

[Dave242]

Definition of AMATEUR

2: one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession

Any expectation of Am's being paid therefore is foolishly misguided.

 

[DavidSauls]

As long as you know it's a dream, I won't poke holes in it.

As long as you leave my dream intact. Which is for Am players to pay a lower entry fee, just to play in an organized, competitive event. No players pack. No payouts to Ams, just trophies. Money can go to the perks and sidebar entertainments, to expenses, or just to the pockets of those doing the work.

(Personally, I really, really, really hate the concept of players packs. Why pay $50 and get a $20 present from the TD? Why not just pay $30?)

Of course, only in our fantasy worlds are tournaments structured the way they "should" be. In reality, TDs structure their events the way they assume players want them, more or less. If players want higher entry fees and bigger Am prizes, we'll do it. If players want 45 2-person divisions, we'll do it. Probably because, after doing all the work to run a tournament, we do want people to actually show up.

 

[atl scott]

Your post was too long to actually read it all. I agree with the player's pack/lunch thing.

As an AM who competes to win, I like to be encouraged by the thought of winning more by doing better. For instance at the PDGA championships this weekend I didn't really care that I dropped from 11th to 14th (out of 62) in the last round because I only lost out on $7 by doing so. :|

 

[Icculus]

I'm diggin the festival atmosphere idea. It could make it more of a family event which would raise publicity for the sport. It would take a lot of money on the front end, though, and not many tournament organizers have surplus cash for a certain "atmosphere".

 

[atl scott]

Definition of AMATEUR

one who engages in a sport in order to make sure the pros get paid.

Any expectation of Am's being paid therefore is foolishly misguided.

Had to FTFY.

I really dislike the "gambling" aspect of putting entry fees into payouts.

That's the best part! The reward for doing well!

Am players to pay a lower entry fee, just to play in an organized, competitive event. No players pack. No payouts to Ams, just trophies.

If someone ran this I would show up!

 

[bradharris]

That's the best part! The reward for sandbagging well!

Fixed.

 

[optidiscic]

I do think ratings based entry fees where the higher rated players had to pay more would end sandbagging in about 5 minutes

Sandbagging 975 rated AM decision...should I pay 60 bucks to win the AM division or should I pay 40 and cash in pro

 

[atl scott]

Fixed.

:doh: Whining about sandbaggers is useless. Players play within the guidelines set by the PDGA. If players play above that level for any amount of time they will be moved up appropriately until they reach advanced, which is the am equivalent of "open" where anyone can compete.

Explain to me how sandbagging really affects this? I'm a 950 rated golfer but I shot a 1000 rated round this weekend. Does that mean I sandbagged and should have played pro?

 

[atl scott]

I do think ratings based entry fees where the higher rated players had to pay more would end sandbagging in about 5 minutes

Sandbagging 975 rated AM decision...should I pay 60 bucks to win the AM division or should I pay 40 and cash in pro

I think any player that wants to stay an AM should be allowed to. That's not sandbagging. Who cares if there's 1 990 rated player in advanced? Or several? They are the only person who can decide if they're ready to go pro yet.

 

[optidiscic]

:doh: Whining about sandbaggers is useless. Players play within the guidelines set by the PDGA. If players play above that level for any amount of time they will be moved up appropriately until they reach advanced, which is the am equivalent of "open" where anyone can compete.

Explain to me how sandbagging really affects this? I'm a 950 rated golfer but I shot a 1000 rated round this weekend. Does that mean I sandbagged and should have played pro?

The difference between an AM and a sandbagger is that the sandbagger consistently shoots rounds that would cash in pro. To me an AM who shoots a hot round is not a bagger but someone who is consistently shooting rounds which would put him in the cash zone for pro is a bagger.
I was always told that the difference between pros and ams is consistency....if you are consistently hitting pro cash scores you are a bagger......those occasional hot rounds show you that you have the ability but not the consistency to play pro.

 

[Lewis]

The difference between a pro and an amateur is not how good they are, but that the pro is doing it to get paid and the amateur is not.

 

[billnchristy]

Sandbagger=someone who beats you

Give me a break. Dudes sometimes have KILLER days...Christy won rec at US women's by 10 strokes and was one of the lowest rated players there. She shot a 900 rated round and a few in the 800s. She damn sure doesn't do that every day.

I don't want plastic anymore, I have too much and the vendors never have stuff I want so we just settle.

I like cool trophies, don't give me the plastic brass 70s dude with the frisbee crap, make something cool that people will WANT to win.

Lunch is nice, especially when you travel to play.

I don't care if there is a PP but I do like a tourney stamped disc, even if I have to buy it, its my memento if I don't win that cool trophy.

I'd rather pay 10 to have a shot at a trophy than pay 25 for a shot at 3 discs I won't throw.

Oh, and I would care less if the TD and his/her staff pocketed 5 of my 10 entry if those other needs are met. In fact I wish they would, its a suck, thankless job that people put many unpaid hours in with the only satisfaction being the thanks at the end. So seriously, if you enjoyed an event make sure you thank the people putting it on, it does help us at the end of a brutally long day that still has hours of teardown after you leave.

 

[bergdawg]

Whatever happened to "most fun wins?"

 

[optidiscic]

What the true irony is that the AMs who bitch about how they win and get plastic thats inflated in value by the TD

These same AMATEURS then take their 'plastic currency' and sell them online or trade them for cash/discs at or above what they paid to enter said tournament......The elite AMS are playing for money don't let them fool you. It doesnt bother me so much but like I said before...make the higher rated pay a bit more and the true baggers will disappear

 

[Lewis]

Whatever happened to "most fun wins?"

Go read the "what's wrong with America" thread.

 

[DavidSauls]

Boy, this thread went in 8 different directions in a hurry. You couldn't even call it thread drift because it never had a flow to begin with.

I do see one of the underlying issues showing through---that our tournament structure is trying to please people with a lot of different, often contradictory, goals.

 

[Lewis]

Boy, this thread went in 8 different directions in a hurry. You couldn't even call it thread drift because it never had a flow to begin with.

I do see one of the underlying issues showing through---that our tournament structure is trying to please people with a lot of different, often contradictory, goals.

This is why I have never liked the idea of including amateurs and professionals in the same tournaments.