Lets Honestly Discuss Tourney Money/Fees

[atl scott]

our tournament structure is trying to please people with a lot of different, often contradictory, goals.

Valid point here.

 

[optidiscic]

So many agendas at a dg tournament. I think that's the issue.

 

[Eco81]

I play am and all I care about is a nice players pack and a good selection of prizes with a mix of clothing items. My fee should be put towardsaing the non am divisions, funding the player packs and updating prizes

 

[scarpfish]

I expect the amenities provided at a tournament to be in proportion to the entry fee paid. I don't mind a festival atmosphere for bigger two day events, but for one day events, keep things simple and keep entry fees down.

I like lunch thrown in when I like what's for lunch. I don't know how many times I've had five dollars of my entry fee get me a crappy sandwich, bag of chips and a can of soda, that I probably could have acquired myself at a grocery store for half that much. I'd just as soon go out to eat or bring my own lunch than do that.

 

[esdubya]

As a TD my ideal would be to have no payouts for Amateurs (and this comes after years of observations from both TD and player side), but the reality of players expectations says that the better scores of each division gets a little slice of the merch-a-palooza. If we didn't do it, another club or entity would step in a offer it up, still steaming.

It's just the type of tournament that seems most prevalent right now but there are many many other options out there for running a competitive disc golf event. The main issue IMO is that to meet the minimum standards for an A tier or B tier you either have to work your tail off for sponsorship or raise funds via the merch-a-palooza. The latter is more fun and much easier.

 

[Johnny Conservative]

As long as you know it's a dream, I won't poke holes in it.

As long as you leave my dream intact. Which is for Am players to pay a lower entry fee, just to play in an organized, competitive event. No players pack. No payouts to Ams, just trophies. Money can go to the perks and sidebar entertainments, to expenses, or just to the pockets of those doing the work.

(Personally, I really, really, really hate the concept of players packs. Why pay $50 and get a $20 present from the TD? Why not just pay $30?)

Of course, only in our fantasy worlds are tournaments structured the way they "should" be. In reality, TDs structure their events the way they assume players want them, more or less. If players want higher entry fees and bigger Am prizes, we'll do it. If players want 45 2-person divisions, we'll do it. Probably because, after doing all the work to run a tournament, we do want people to actually show up.

Because I usually play in rec (or novice if available) I pay about 25-30 dollars at most tourneys I have played in. If there was no players pack offered I would probably not enter it. That is the reason for a players pack to begin with. My definition of a decent players pack is the choice between 2-3 higher end plastic discs. ie Elite Z or greater or Champion or greater.

 

[bradharris]

:doh: Whining about sandbaggers is useless. Players play within the guidelines set by the PDGA. If players play above that level for any amount of time they will be moved up appropriately until they reach advanced, which is the am equivalent of "open" where anyone can compete.

Explain to me how sandbagging really affects this? I'm a 950 rated golfer but I shot a 1000 rated round this weekend. Does that mean I sandbagged and should have played pro?

My comment was made somewhat facetiously. I'm not one to generally complain about sandbagging.

My bigger concern goes back to the gambling idea of divisions. For me there's a very definite conflict between choosing the group I want to compete against and the group I'm comfortable betting against. Based on my rating, the PDGA says I should play Rec. As a gambler, I'll maximize my winnings by playing Am 2. As a competitor I like to feel challenged by playing Am 1.

 

[#19325]

as a player and a td there are a ton of ways events are run. ive learned that none are right or wrong. as a td i make sure i advertise everything im doing. no one has a leegit complaint if its advertised. it was their choice to play. when i choose to play an event i research or ask what to expect from the event.

i know one thing. tds are not getting rich. many are heavily invested in merch and struggle to come out ahead. im ok if the td or club makes some profit if they run a good evvent.

every extra item you add to a tournamet it takes either money or a volunteer. lets take lunch for example. it is not easy to organize lunch. who is going to not play and organize it. the timing is not easy. how are you going to serve it. ive seeen lunch at many events and its usually a disaster. players complain they didnt like it. those who came off the course took double servings and there is no food left for the last cards.

before you question what a td is doing educate yourself. ask questions before instead

 

[scarpfish]

This is why I have never liked the idea of including amateurs and professionals in the same tournaments.

Until our numbers grow and the financials of a tournament aren't dependent on turning over Am Merch, its going to be the ugly reality for awhile.

That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing more Am only events.

 

[optidiscic]

as a player and a td there are a ton of ways events are run. ive learned that none are right or wrong. as a td i make sure i advertise everything im doing. no one has a leegit complaint if its advertised. it was their choice to play. when i choose to play an event i research or ask what to expect from the event.

i know one thing. tds are not getting rich. many are heavily invested in merch and struggle to come out ahead. im ok if the td or club makes some profit if they run a good evvent.

every extra item you add to a tournamet it takes either money or a volunteer. lets take lunch for example. it is not easy to organize lunch. who is going to not play and organize it. the timing is not easy. how are you going to serve it. ive seeen lunch at many events and its usually a disaster. players complain they didnt like it. those who came off the course took double servings and there is no food left for the last cards.

before you question what a td is doing educate yourself. ask questions before instead

a voucher for lunch would probably be better...I'm a finnicky eater also

 

[Johnny Conservative]

The conservative in me is on the TD's side if they should profit from holding a tourney. As long as I feel personally that the prizes were fair and that the players pack was good in relation to the fee I paid, then the amount that the TD should put in his pocket is of no concern to me. I feel that he/she deserves it.

 

[Johnny Conservative]

a voucher for lunch would probably be better...I'm a finnicky eater also

I prefer to bring my own lunch because I find that most of the time if there is a lunch offered, it is food that is cost effective to the tourney. Meaning that it is pizza,chili,spaghetti etc., things that I would not want to eat right before playing another round.

 

[thecomet]

I think some of the recent posters hit it right on the nose-- the reason why this is tough is because there are so many different types of disc golfers out there who play tournaments for very different reasons. I have seen/heard discussions like this many times, and there are always things that one person loves that another person hates. We just need to be honest about the fact that any sport that has grown as much as disc golf is going to have different people playing the game for different reasons, and that our personal tournament/play wishes aren't necessairly everyone else's.

My solution to this problem is simple: TDs should branch out, and stop following the same model of every other tournament out there. If you want a certain type of tournament, pitch it to a TD, or run it yourself. I would say that 90% of all tournaments have the same play structure (2 rounds, 18 holes, etc), relatively similar entry fees, and similar payout structures. I lot of people blame the PDGA, but the PDGA rules have lots of flexibilty. There is nothing in the PDGA rules that says you cannot have a one-round, am-only, trophy-only tournament. Likewise, there is nothing that says you cannot have a pro-only tourament with $200 entry fees. A lot of people don't like advanced am because of the wide spread of skill among players--there is nothing that says you can't have divisions up to intermediate and then jump right to pro, removing the advanced division entirely, as long as the TD gives proper notice. I love playing PDGA events and I play as many as I can every year, and I feel like the current "norm" structure caters to the majority of tourney players quite well, but I would love to see some tournaments out there that cater to different sorts of players. I think it would also increase membership for the PDGA, and get more players involved in tournaments. I know a lot of players that would love supporting the PDGA and getting rated and whatnot but don't feel like the typical tournament structure fits them. If TDs had a couple tournaments each year that fit their desires, I think they would certainly consider membership.

 

[bradharris]

The conservative in me is on the TD's side if they should profit from holding a tourney. As long as I feel personally that the prizes were fair and that the players pack was good in relation to the fee I paid, then the amount that the TD should put in his pocket is of no concern to me. I feel that he/she deserves it.

I'm a big proponent of the Laissez Faire idea. If a TD can get $X in entry fees and sponsorships for a tournament that costs $Y (where X > Y) then let him keep the profit.

 

[DavidSauls]

My solution to this problem is simple: TDs should branch out, and stop following the same model of every other tournament out there. If you want a certain type of tournament, pitch it to a TD, or run it yourself.

Ah, but the reason TDs follow the existing model is their assumption that that's what players want.

I've run some innovative tournaments, as well as standard-format ones.

But I don't want to go to all that work, in the hopes that enough players will like the idea and show up. It takes a great leap of faith to run a trophy-only, or graduated-entry-fees, or match play, or whatever event, and hope that people will show up for it.

 

[scarpfish]

The conservative in me is on the TD's side if they should profit from holding a tourney. As long as I feel personally that the prizes were fair and that the players pack was good in relation to the fee I paid, then the amount that the TD should put in his pocket is of no concern to me. I feel that he/she deserves it.

I wish more players would take into consideration that if TD's did have a profit incentive to run events, they might have more events available, and would have them with a variety of division/payout structures so they could choose the events tailored more to their liking.

I also wish players would get behind the idea that the administration of a tournament is a service that should be paid for, no different than getting an oil change or a haircut. Instead of the TD going out and getting all that merchandise and having to turn it over either through player's packs or payout, why not just charge a fee equivalent to the expected markup, tack on the associated PDGA/local fees, and call it good. We could potentially see some $10/15 Am entry events if players could get behind that idea.

 

[Script]

Really the issue is the P in PDGA. I think the PDGA needs to pull a netflix and split up into 2 entities entirely and run completely seperate tourneys.

 

[BraveThrower43]

I like the idea of a large players pack for all ams and having CTPs the ams play for trophy only. You dont see am raquetball(or other obscure sport) tourneys where they play for merch. Play for pride and the experience which is what being an am is all about

 

[elnino]

my dream is to play pro, not pay pdga 10 dollar fine(it is a fine by the way), and play trophy only. that way i can get better and still enjoy some great competition. The last thing in the world that i need is more plastic. i have 10-50 of everything i throw in matching colors.

I play volleyball at the open level and if you do well twice you move up a division. the age protected divisions are crap. a 50 year old dude this weekend beat two 20 somethings this weekend. Volleyball is a lot harder on your body than disc golf btw. i understand maybe at 55. but i know 50 year olds that would crush me in disc golf, why do they get a special division?

 

[thecomet]

I totally agree with scarpfish. From my experience, the biggest difference between a great tournament and a crappy one is the amount of effort that the TD puts into the tournament. If a TD puts a ton of effort into a tourney (you'd be surprised at how much tourneys consume the lives of some TDs) and makes it amazing, they deserve to make a profit. Some people just can't afford to spend 100 hours making that awesome tournament and then coming out even, or at a loss. If you allow TDs to make a profit, TDs will work harder to ensure that people keep coming back to their tournaments, and more TDs will find it economically feasible to put lots of work into their tourneys. A $200 profit (which is much more than anyone makes on a tourney, I think) on a 70 person event is $3/person. I think that $3 is a very reasonable price to pay for that sort of effort. I've seen TDs put no work on tourneys and pocket most of the money, and almost always word gets around and the TD's future endeavors prove to be very unsuccessful.