Lets Honestly Discuss Tourney Money/Fees

[snowren24]

What I want from a C tier tourney as an AM is pretty simple. I want to get fair value for my money. What I mean by that is if my entry fee is $50, I want the total given and paid out to my division to be equal to that, minus the proportionate pdga and other misc fees. If you're going with a larger players pack, fine, but dont try to tell me that a disc is worth $20. If you're going to do a larger payout in plastic, thats fine too, but same deal, no $19 star plastic discs.

I expect a club/TD to make some money off throwing the tourney, not just add any profits into the pro purse.

If the total pro buy in is $1500 after fees, why should they expect payouts to total anything more than that?

 

[E_Rock25]

This is why I have never liked the idea of including amateurs and professionals in the same tournaments.

This is spot on IMO we need an ADGA (ameture disc golf association) AM's should have the oppertunity to win cash and for a lot of players disc's are not that appealing as a prize.

An ADGA could focuse more on sport/course development than paying out pros. I think the PDGA is a waste of money for anyone who is not playing in a pro division. Where do an AM's dues go? Are you going to see your money in your local course? TD's have to pay the PDGA to "legitimize" there tounament. IMO this is BS.

Local "non sanctioned" tounaments are the way to go IMO. Grow the sport form the bottom up, instead of the top down. Support local clubs and there tounaments and tell the TD's of these events what you like in a tounament. I have just started to become more involved in course and tounament development in my area and local clubs and leages are pulling most if not all of the weight in this area. Why should local work and cash support only the top 1% of players that don't live in or play local course on a regular basis? It makes no sence.

I also think most of the money raised by tounaments should go right back into the course's or the peoples pockest that volunteer there time.

IMO this sport is still to small for Pro's. The PDGA is not a nessesary entity IMO.

 

[scarpfish]

This is spot on IMO we need an ADGA (ameture disc golf association) AM's should have the oppertunity to win cash

If you do that, then they're not Ams anymore.

 

[DavidSauls]

At the local level, the Pros are not the problem for the Ams. There's very little difference, and no reason to separate them. The Pros are just the top level in a tiered structure, with the artificial distinction of paying Pros in cash, Ams in plastic.

We're all semi-pros.

It's a myth that Am fees go to Pro payouts. What sometimes goes to Pro payouts are the wholesale/retail margins on the merchandise used for Am players packs and and prizes. That's money the TD has garnered for handling that merchandise, just like a retail business, and can do with as he pleases. Ams are getting 100% of their entry fee back---it's not costing the Ams a dime to play.

A reasonable structure would be to pay $20-$40 for a tournament, and get NOTHING back. No players packs, no prize payouts, just trophies for the winners.

But that horse has left the barn and he's not likely to go back in. We're all addicted to payouts.

 

[E_Rock25]

If you do that, then they're not Ams anymore.

Why do you say that? Maybe it should just be the DGA and not focuse on player divisions but PLAYERS in general.

Really I could care less about payouts and would like to see the money go back into the sport. I.E. course development.

Like I said the sport needs to be bigger to support "pro" level players. It's all ass backward IMO.

 

[Dave242]

:doh: Whining about sandbaggers is useless. Players play within the guidelines set by the PDGA.

:doh: Whining about payout is useless. TDs play within the guidelines set by the PDGA.

 

[John Rock]

Why do you say that? Maybe it should just be the DGA and not focuse on player divisions but PLAYERS in general.

Really I could care less about payouts and would like to see the money go back into the sport. I.E. course development.

Like I said the sport needs to be bigger to support "pro" level players. It's all ass backward IMO.

Would it be better if the TD kept any money that's left over after paying all players 100% of entry fees? They did the work to set up the event that generated those entry fees.

 

[Lewis]

I don't understand why amateurs expect to get 100% of the value of their entry fee back in payout. Consider that some of the value of playing is the experience of the event, and realize that if you want 100% value for merchandise you can just go buy it at a store. I'd rather pay less in registration, have my registration go to the TD's base costs or towards his profit, and have the option of buying merchandise on site at the event from a sponsoring disc seller. And if you're going to add revenue from the event to the professionals' payouts, you should be able to explain what value the professionals add to everyone's experience of the tournament. In my limited experience, the pros are always on the opposite end of the course, slowing down the pace of play to a crawl with all the amateur groups piling up and waiting behind them. They don't positively affect my experience at all. If I were a spectator, I might be willing to pay to follow and watch the pros, but can you get the government to let you charge fees to enter the park as a spectator? I doubt it.

 

[joesouthfla]

as a player and a td there are a ton of ways events are run. ive learned that none are right or wrong. as a td i make sure i advertise everything im doing. no one has a leegit complaint if its advertised. it was their choice to play. when i choose to play an event i research or ask what to expect from the event.

i know one thing. tds are not getting rich. many are heavily invested in merch and struggle to come out ahead. im ok if the td or club makes some profit if they run a good evvent.

every extra item you add to a tournamet it takes either money or a volunteer. lets take lunch for example. it is not easy to organize lunch. who is going to not play and organize it. the timing is not easy. how are you going to serve it. ive seeen lunch at many events and its usually a disaster. players complain they didnt like it. those who came off the course took double servings and there is no food left for the last cards.

before you question what a td is doing educate yourself. ask questions before instead

Well said and thank you for being a TD!

 

[E_Rock25]

Would it be better if the TD kept any money that's left over after paying all players 100% of entry fees? They did the work to set up the event that generated those entry fees.

Yes I should have put that in the money back into the sport part. I do a ton of volunteer work at my local course and it like TDing is a very thankless job.

TD's are definatly underappreciated and this needs to change.

 

[atl scott]

:doh: Whining about payout is useless. TDs play within the guidelines set by the PDGA.

Touche. :|

Get the pitchforks! Down with PDGA!

 

[E_Rock25]

I have yet to TD but will next spring for sure. I personaly don't want or need any money in my pocket but can appreciate the need for TD's to make some money off an event. I currently run a league and all the money goes right back into the course or the players pockets.

I work hard on leagues and course development because I love the sport not because I want to become rich off it. I have a real job and love where I am in life giving back to a great sport is just a bounus for me. I saw a 9 year old ace a hole on the course I helped design and mantain the other day and the look on his face was worth more than anyone could pay me.

 

[denny ritner]

I'm diggin the festival atmosphere idea. It could make it more of a family event which would raise publicity for the sport. It would take a lot of money on the front end, though, and not many tournament organizers have surplus cash for a certain "atmosphere".

Would something along these lines work for ya?

$30 for two nights of primitive camping, two nights of live music, and a 36 hole disc golf tournament. ($20 for just the camping and music)

We'll be giving away over $500 in tickets to future music festivals and about $500 in CTP's.

Two optional doubles rounds are just $10 per player each.

 

[John Rock]

Yes I should have put that in the money back into the sport part. I do a ton of volunteer work at my local course and it like TDing is a very thankless job.

TD's are definatly underappreciated and this needs to change.

So when a TD works his tail off to put on a quality event, they're entitled to make some profit. Is that kinda how you see it?

If that TD decides to take his profit from the event and donate (become an event sponsor) that to the pro divisions, that's when it becomes a problem because he's using your money? Didn't you just agree the TD should be allowed to make a little?

 

[tallpaul]

I totally agree with scarpfish. From my experience, the biggest difference between a great tournament and a crappy one is the amount of effort that the TD puts into the tournament. If a TD puts a ton of effort into a tourney (you'd be surprised at how much tourneys consume the lives of some TDs) and makes it amazing, they deserve to make a profit. Some people just can't afford to spend 100 hours making that awesome tournament and then coming out even, or at a loss. If you allow TDs to make a profit, TDs will work harder to ensure that people keep coming back to their tournaments, and more TDs will find it economically feasible to put lots of work into their tourneys. A $200 profit (which is much more than anyone makes on a tourney, I think) on a 70 person event is $3/person. I think that $3 is a very reasonable price to pay for that sort of effort. I've seen TDs put no work on tourneys and pocket most of the money, and almost always word gets around and the TD's future endeavors prove to be very unsuccessful.

Here is the one of the ultimate troubles with this scenario: TDs primarily run tourneys for the love of the game. How many jobs would you take if you knew you would be making $3 an hour; and this would be considered the high end of pay?

 

[joesouthfla]

I have been playing tournaments for about a year now and have enjoyed them all. The system might need a little tweaking but overall I am very satisfied.

 

[DavidSauls]

Here is the one of the ultimate troubles with this scenario: TDs primarily run tourneys for the love of the game. How many jobs would you take if you knew you would be making $3 an hour; and this would be considered the high end of pay?

Actually, in the cases I'm familiar with, the TD doesn't earn that much.

"Profits" go the local club and/or course improvements.

 

[tallpaul]

Actually, in the cases I'm familiar with, the TD doesn't earn that much.

"Profits" go the local club and/or course improvements.

Exactly, this has and will probably continue to be a "love of the sport" thing. It really does take 100 hours to put a tourney together; and you have to ask a bunch of volunteers to give their time as well; especailly as you get more and more into the "extras." Running tournaments, for all sports, is a suckers game.

 

[E_Rock25]

So when a TD works his tail off to put on a quality event, they're entitled to make some profit. Is that kinda how you see it?

If that TD decides to take his profit from the event and donate (become an event sponsor) that to the pro divisions, that's when it becomes a problem because he's using your money? Didn't you just agree the TD should be allowed to make a little?

If the TD is throwing his profit into the pro devision I have no beaf what so ever. I just think the average player gets overlooked at some tournaments and becomes more of an after though or means to a pro purse. Average players spend way more money in disc golf than pro's do and I just think they should see an equal payout/prize if the cost of the tournament is high. I would love it if we could have well attended low cost tournaments with quality players, but that just doesn't seem to happen. Why should I have to pay PDGA dues or $10 extra dollars when I am not nor will ever be a Pro DGer? Why can't I just pay an entry fee and play in a non pro devision with my levle of player?

I also said that this sport IMO is to small to support a pro divisions. I think it is ridiculous for the PDGA to restrict payouts to AM's. All I really want is good competition that grows the sport.

Like I said above payouts really mean nothing to me I just want to feel like the money I spend at a tournament was worth it. I don't want a players pack because I have all the disc's I need and if I want more I will buy the ones I like. A cool tounament stamp disc is nice but it just gets put in a box in my closet. Cool creative trophies would be awesome but are rarely part of a prize pack. I would rather see less money being payed out to players but also lower entry fees and have the tounament proceeds go into the courses and people who volunteer there time. I do get wraped up in were my money is going and I think that is the problem. I just want good competition for a reasonable price that can sustane course development and grow the sport. I can't help but wonder where my $35 dollar entry went when all I get is one or two peices of $7 plastic, and the chance to win an AM prize pack that is not that great.

I won a decent ace pot earlier this summer and gave it right back to the club. Hopfully they spend it on the course. I did this because I want the sport to grow not my pockets.

For me it is not about the money its about the competition and the progression of the sport and I feel like the money I spend sometimes is not going to that progression.

 

[scarpfish]

Average players spend way more money in disc golf than pro's do

Really? Define average. The way I see it, the average player...

- Doesn't play tournaments, and hereby avoids that expense and all ancillary expenses associated with it
- Doesn't go to any DG related websites including this one
- Has probably fewer than 20 discs and maybe only plays with a handful of them in any given round.
- Has a single strapper bag, an improvised bag meant for something else, or no bag.

and I just think they should see an equal payout/prize if the cost of the tournament is high.

Even when tourney costs are high, I don't know of any predicaments where Am fees are equal to Pro fees, so why pretell do they deserve an equal payout for no other reason than they are lesser skilled?