Lets Honestly Discuss Tourney Money/Fees

[Guurn]

Definition of AMATEUR

2: one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession

Any expectation of Am's being paid therefore is foolishly misguided.

I disagree with this interpretation. B doesn't follow A. I do many things for money that I won't put in the time for me to be considered a professional at it. Just keep amateur money small enough that it couldn't be a profession. Maybe that is basically how it is for our pros now.

My ideal would be just 6 divisions. Open men/women, AM men/women and over 55 men/women. The only discs given out would be for trophies but memorial discs and t shirts could be preordered and/or sold for the tourney director to use as he sees fit. I could envision a scenario that a person that has a summer-long series could just have a run made for the year and use it for all events having just the trophy discs made for the winners. With no memorial discs and t shirts more money could be spent on keeping the pros happy.

I never really cared for the festival atmosphere or food but then I am old and crabby. I get the lunch thing. Why charge me again though as some tourneys do?

Slight derail--There has to be a better way of sending groups off than shotgun start. I really have no idea of a solution for one day tourneys. I hate the 5 hour rounds that seem to be common in current tourney form. Maybe someone could do a simple study of what class plays fastest and have all of them start first (say holes 1-6), and once they have cleared off hole 1 people start group by group (fastest to slowest) after them. As long as the group ahead of me doesn't suck balls I almost never have a round last longer than 2.5 hours on an 18 hole course. Why do tourneys take so long?

 

[bradharris]

Slight derail--There has to be a better way of sending groups off than shotgun start. I really have no idea of a solution for one day tourneys. I hate the 5 hour rounds that seem to be common in current tourney form. Maybe someone could do a simple study of what class plays fastest and have all of them start first (say holes 1-6), and once they have cleared off hole 1 people start group by group (fastest to slowest) after them. As long as the group ahead of me doesn't suck balls I almost never have a round last longer than 2.5 hours on an 18 hole course. Why do tourneys take so long?

5 hours? Really? I've rarely had a tourney round last more than 3.

Either way, your solution would make it worse. Although your playing time may be faster, each round would be even longer. In the shotgun format, each round lasts exactly as long as it takes the slowest group to play. In your format, each round is the slowest group + the time to get earlier groups off the first tee.

The best way to control time is to use shorter tees for the lower divisions. That helps keep them moving at the same pace as the pros (in theory).

 

[John Rock]

If the TD is throwing his profit into the pro devision I have no beaf what so ever. I just think the average player gets overlooked at some tournaments and becomes more of an after though or means to a pro purse. Average players spend way more money in disc golf than pro's do and I just think they should see an equal payout/prize if the cost of the tournament is high. I would love it if we could have well attended low cost tournaments with quality players, but that just doesn't seem to happen. Why should I have to pay PDGA dues or $10 extra dollars when I am not nor will ever be a Pro DGer? Why can't I just pay an entry fee and play in a non pro devision with my levle of player?

I also said that this sport IMO is to small to support a pro divisions. I think it is ridiculous for the PDGA to restrict payouts to AM's. All I really want is good competition that grows the sport.

Like I said above payouts really mean nothing to me I just want to feel like the money I spend at a tournament was worth it. I don't want a players pack because I have all the disc's I need and if I want more I will buy the ones I like. A cool tounament stamp disc is nice but it just gets put in a box in my closet. Cool creative trophies would be awesome but are rarely part of a prize pack. I would rather see less money being payed out to players but also lower entry fees and have the tounament proceeds go into the courses and people who volunteer there time. I do get wraped up in were my money is going and I think that is the problem. I just want good competition for a reasonable price that can sustane course development and grow the sport. I can't help but wonder where my $35 dollar entry went when all I get is one or two peices of $7 plastic, and the chance to win an AM prize pack that is not that great.

I won a decent ace pot earlier this summer and gave it right back to the club. Hopfully they spend it on the course. I did this because I want the sport to grow not my pockets.

For me it is not about the money its about the competition and the progression of the sport and I feel like the money I spend sometimes is not going to that progression.

I'm calling you out on this thought. Please show me how ams (average players) are paying more money than pro players to play tournaments.

 

[E_Rock25]

I didn't say in tournaments anywhere in that statment.... I ment in general we AM's spend more money in the sport because there are far fewer Pros than AM's.

 

[John Rock]

Well that's certainly my mistake. I thought we have been discussing tournament finances. Maybe my point has been established anyway...

 

[TimSyl]

I have been the TD in a couple non-sanctioned local tourneys, have "helped" w/ a few sanctioned and non-sanctioned events, and have played in about 30 tourneys since taking up the game in 2007. I was a long time ball golfer.

I have some random thoughts:

In general, tournament play is too slow. I have basically stopped playing tourneys due to the fact I don't enjoy being at the course from 8 am until 6 or 7 pm to play two rounds. This is typically caused by unprepared TDs, players moving far too slowly between shots, and too long of a "lunch" break. I ran one tourney, with a small turnout mind you, where we played two rounds, ate lunch between rounds...teed off at 9:30 am...prizes awarded and heading home at 2:15 pm. No one was rushing...I was prepared w/ rules sheets and scorecards, lunch was ready as players came off the course, and prizes were prepared and ready to give out as the second round ended. More players would have slowed things down a bit, but not more than an additional 1/2 hour.

Disc golf is almost opposite to ball golf in regards to handicap/ratings. Sandbaggers in ball golf turn in their high scores, discers turn in their low scores to inflate their ratings. Perhaps Open divisions should play "stroke" play and others play stroke play w/ handicap. It probably wouldn't help curtail sandbagging, but would give a 920 rated player a better chance against a 990 player.

Courses, in general, need to have better maintenance. It's been my experience disc courses are at the bottom of priorities for park maintenance staffs. Additionally, some of our fellow players abuse courses. Better course conditions would probably lead to better tourneys.

A TD SHOULD make some $ for his/her efforts. Print some posters promoting the event, print some fliers and some scorecards, purchase some discs, and buy some food for lunch. Organize everything. Listen to people complain...because trust me, there's always at least a few. Then tell me you shouldn't get some compensation.

 

[Guurn]

5 hours? Really? I've rarely had a tourney round last more than 3.

Either way, your solution would make it worse. Although your playing time may be faster, each round would be even longer. In the shotgun format, each round lasts exactly as long as it takes the slowest group to play. In your format, each round is the slowest group + the time to get earlier groups off the first tee.

The best way to control time is to use shorter tees for the lower divisions. That helps keep them moving at the same pace as the pros (in theory).

This isn't exactly true. Slow groups have to wait for other slow groups to finish holes so it gets compounded. I have been at holes where there were 4 groups waiting to tee off. I know my solution isn't a good one. There just has to be a better way. Yeah, I had one round last just under 5 hours but that was the worst.

Pros don't move faster than some other divisions in my experience, usually slower unless you are talking recreational with heavy shule. If I had to guess I would say Master Pro or AM1 are the fastest divisions. With Rec/Inter being slowest.

 

[E_Rock25]

I should have broken that statment up better. It seems like most PDGA tounaments catter to Pro's and I am ok with that in a way but I would like to see the PDGA give more to the roots of the sport which IMO are the average player. It seems to me that there is a stigma if a tounament is not PDGA sanction that it is not as good, and does not draw as many good players. We as pleyers may have done this to a ponit but I think that needs to change.

I wish DG tounaments were more like snowboarding events in the way that there is an open devision for those who choose to compeat in the higher ranks. Sponsorship money is set for the open devision and entry fees for that devision go into that prize money. Lower level riders entry goes into there own prize pool and taht entry is usualy much less than open. A lot of the PDGA disc golf tounements I see the Pro's pay $50 - $75 and Am's pay $25 - $50 and have no chance at winning any money at all.

 

[E_Rock25]

I do think that the PDGA has done good things like standardizing rules and what not but I do not agree with having to be a part of an orginization or pay more money to play in a tounament. I can go to almost any snowboard event and pay the same as the guy next to me and have a chance at the same prize he does. The fact that you have to be a menmber of some orginization or pay more to play in a tounament is ridiculous IMO. I would be happy to support the PDGA and there tounements if I saw a benefet at the local level but it seems very small if it is even exists at all.

 

[John Rock]

I should have broken that statment up better. It seems like most PDGA tounaments catter to Pro's and I am ok with that in a way but I would like to see the PDGA give more to the roots of the sport which IMO are the average player. It seems to me that there is a stigma if a tounament is not PDGA sanction that it is not as good, and does not draw as many good players. We as pleyers may have done this to a ponit but I think that needs to change.

I wish DG tounaments were more like snowboarding events in the way that there is an open devision for those who choose to compeat in the higher ranks. Sponsorship money is set for the open devision and entry fees for that devision go into that prize money. Lower level riders entry goes into there own prize pool and taht entry is usualy much less than open. A lot of the PDGA disc golf tounements I see the Pro's pay $50 - $75 and Am's pay $25 - $50 and have no chance at winning any money at all.

You have never seen a very talented AM or ADV player sell a disc that he/she won as a prize in a tournament? The money AMs win is not USD but it is easily converted to such.

 

[John Rock]

I do think that the PDGA has done good things like standardizing rules and what not but I do not agree with having to be a part of an orginization or pay more money to play in a tounament. I can go to almost any snowboard event and pay the same as the guy next to me and have a chance at the same prize he does. The fact that you have to be a menmber of some orginization or pay more to play in a tounament is ridiculous IMO. I would be happy to support the PDGA and there tounements if I saw a benefet at the local level but it seems very small if it is even exists at all.

Where does the event promoter get his prizes from? Have your demands of what prize you receive been well taken? I would bet the promoter would tell you to go to the next ski hill if you don't like they way he runs his payouts/event.

 

[jtencer]

My ideal disc golf tournament is structured just like almost every other tournament for every other amateur sport. No pay out. Maybe the winner gets a T-shirt or something small.

The entry fee is used for 2 things:

1) fundraising for course maintenance, the club, or even the individual putting on the event.
2) Amenities like lunch, player packs, or whatever else the TD wants to include.

This keeps the initial investment small which encourages more people to show up along with the sense that your money is actually going to a good cause. This way, clubs might actually be able to have money for the new tee/baskets/signs that you've been talking about for years.

Your motivation for performing well should be the satisfaction that comes with it and your desire to come at all should be driven by a sense of community and maybe wanting to compare your game with others'.

I never understood why DG tournaments for amateurs are structured like everyone is a pro in it for the money. I also never understood why amateur disc golfers have such a desire to play in the same events as the pro golfers.

 

[E_Rock25]

They get there prize from people buying there snowboard product. Most snoboard events are run by snowboard companies or snowboard resorts. There are lot of spectators for bigger events that must buy a lift ticket to watch a event live and the resort also makes money from them buying food and drinks. Disc golf may never have this because it is so low cost and mostly free to play. Also snowboard companies sell product just because one of there pros ride or use that product. This happens in DG to a certan exstent but the cost of a disc is much less than the cost of a snowboard.

That is why I just don't see why tounaments are regulated by the PDGA, there is no money in this sport for the types of competitions they are trying to put on. And now we are getting into why the sport isn't growing in some asspects. The money just isn't there.... That is why the PDGA takes money from AM's to provide Pro payouts. There are no big time sponsors because there is nothing in it for them.

I think if the PDGA stoped telling TD's how to split there payouts you would see bigger AM payouts and it would draw more people to the sport. It is really hard for me to see DG ever getting as big as snowboarding because of cost alone so maybe that was a bad analogy but I think the overregulation of PDGA tounaments is killing its potential growth.

 

[jtencer]

So when a TD works his tail off to put on a quality event, they're entitled to make some profit. Is that kinda how you see it?

If that TD decides to take his profit from the event and donate (become an event sponsor) that to the pro divisions, that's when it becomes a problem because he's using your money? Didn't you just agree the TD should be allowed to make a little?

Giving that money to the pros is well within his rights. Obviously, I think that's a stupid thing for him to do and would rather he give it to the club for course improvements but it's up to him, I guess.

The problem is that in the current system he is expected to give that money to the pros to make sure they show up. Personally I couldn't care less if any pros show up at my tournament as long as I have enough players total.

 

[dreadlock86]

This is why I have never liked the idea of including amateurs and professionals in the same tournaments.

^^^this!
you wonder why there are no spectators at disc golf events? because who other than disc golfers wants to watch. separate AM and Pro and you just might get one group coming to watch the other. :doh:

This is spot on IMO we need an ADGA (amateur disc golf association)

An ADGA could focus more on sport/course development than paying out pros. I think the PDGA is a waste of money for anyone who is not playing in a pro division. Where do an AM's dues go? Are you going to see your money in your local course? TD's have to pay the PDGA to "legitimize" there tournament. IMO this is BS.

^^^this too.


i much prefer the idea of local clubs growing the sport locally with state, regional, and national organizations for bigger events.

i also think that you could introduce no prize, no payout tourneys if you turn them into a league style thing where you earn points in these tourneys all season to qualify in a larger tourney with payout at the end of the season. this would work really well if local clubs were the primary organizing bodies and each area had it's own league. again, state, regional, and national organizations would handle larger events and set up the reqs for qualifying events (or points) from the local leagues.

 

[E_Rock25]

My ideal disc golf tournament is structured just like almost every other tournament for every other amateur sport. No pay out. Maybe the winner gets a T-shirt or something small.

The entry fee is used for 2 things:

1) fundraising for course maintenance, the club, or even the individual putting on the event.
2) Amenities like lunch, player packs, or whatever else the TD wants to include.

This keeps the initial investment small which encourages more people to show up along with the sense that your money is actually going to a good cause. This way, clubs might actually be able to have money for the new tee/baskets/signs that you've been talking about for years.

Your motivation for performing well should be the satisfaction that comes with it and your desire to come at all should be driven by a sense of community and maybe wanting to compare your game with others'.

I never understood why DG tournaments for amateurs are structured like everyone is a pro in it for the money. I also never understood why amateur disc golfers have such a desire to play in the same events as the pro golfers.

I like this.... I don't quite get it eather but it seems like we have gone down the path and there is no turning around. The unsanctioned fundrasier type events don't seem to draw good competion. They are very fun and put on for the right reasons that is why I play them way more than PDGA ones but I would like to see better players playing these events. The question is how to draw them in.

 

[John Rock]

They get there prize from people buying there snowboard product. Most snoboard events are run by snowboard companies or snowboard resorts. There are lot of spectators for bigger events that must buy a lift ticket to watch a event live and the resort also makes money from them buying food and drinks. Disc golf may never have this because it is so low cost and mostly free to play. Also snowboard companies sell product just because one of there pros ride or use that product. This happens in DG to a certan exstent but the cost of a disc is much less than the cost of a snowboard.

That is why I just don't see why tounaments are regulated by the PDGA, there is no money in this sport for the types of competitions they are trying to put on. And now we are getting into why the sport isn't growing in some asspects. The money just isn't there.... That is why the PDGA takes money from AM's to provide Pro payouts. There are no big time sponsors because there is nothing in it for them.

I think if the PDGA stoped telling TD's how to split there payouts you would see bigger AM payouts and it would draw more people to the sport. It is really hard for me to see DG ever getting as big as snowboarding because of cost alone so maybe that was a bad analogy but I think the overregulation of PDGA tounaments is killing its potential growth.

So the promoter is using his profits from his shop as a way to provide prizes? Plus I'm sure he is getting some kind of deal through the ski area management to allow for more of HIS profits to be used for the event, since more folks at the ski hill mean more $$$ for management. That's sponsorship at its finest.

In all of the events I've organized or helped organize, I've never had anyone from the pDGA tell me where to spend event funds. Sure, I've had to pay sanctioning fees and per-player fees, and there are the payout requirements that have to be met, but when those details are met, the rest is mine to do with what I want. Just like the profit from the snowboard shop- he's got bills to pay to stay in business, but profit can be spent on whatever he wants.

As far as the pDGA taking money from one group and giving to another, take a closer look at how much it costs to be a pro member vs. an am member. And then figure in that I don't travel much these days for events to compete like I used to, and you'll see that many older pros aren't getting much for their $$$ from the pDGA. But that's another story due to explode in another thread.

 

[jtencer]

I like this.... I don't quite get it eather but it seems like we have gone down the path and there is no turning around. The unsanctioned fundrasier type events don't seem to draw good competion. They are very fun and put on for the right reasons that is why I play them way more than PDGA ones but I would like to see better players playing these events. The question is how to draw them in.

I think part of the problem is that we've diluted what "Pro" means. We've got too many of them and to compound the problem we have a bunch of amateurs that want to play like and get payed like pros.

It seems like the PDGA is trying to drive more people in that direction. It's like they want everyone to be a touring pro because that's how they generate the most money. Unfortunately, that's not the way to generate the most money for the sport in general.

More money going to courses and more money going to outreach and player development efforts is what the sport needs. The last thing it needs is more "professionals" that can't actually make a living off of it.

If DG isn't your livelihood, then you are or you should be in it for the love of the game. If that's what you're in it for, it doesn't make any sense for you to be taking money away from the sport. Payouts (pro and am) are bleeding the sport dry and are strangling the growth.

 

[E_Rock25]

John Rock "Sure, I've had to pay sanctioning fees and per-player fees, and there are the payout requirements that have to be met, but when those details are met, the rest is mine to do with what I want. Just like the profit from the snowboard shop- he's got bills to pay to stay in business, but profit can be spent on whatever he wants."

That sure seems like PDGA telling you how to spend the tounament money.

 

[megamerican]

If the PDGA is serious about growing this sport they need to launch or support an Amateur organization.

They could simply add a tier, where it is AM's only, very small tournament fee (no more than $10), nothing but a trophy and official ratings as a reward.

The TD of these events should be able to keep a small % of the fee's, capped at a certain amount for acting as an official for the event.