Leverage & Centrifugal Force are Sideways

[Flashblastx]

This is interesting...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P38QVjYA1Pk#t=41m10s

Hmmm was a little hard to hear him and comprehend what he was saying, relaxed grip that increases in the backswing to 100%. Then when he is coming down with the club it relaxes slightly and increases back to 100% before impact? Interesting indeed... I wonder if they have studies on PGA tour pros grip percentage.

 

[sidewinder22]

Hmmm was a little hard to hear him and comprehend what he was saying, relaxed grip that increases in the backswing to 100%. Then when he is coming down with the club it relaxes slightly and increases back to 100% before impact? Interesting indeed... I wonder if they have studies on PGA tour pros grip percentage.

I was more interested in how it stiffened the wrist and took the slack out of it, and also toward the end about rotation and perception.

Common advice in disc golf is to lock the wrist straight. That gave me a big breakthrough long time ago and playing around with the hammer in slow motion and how the wrist needs to be tensioned to control the swing weight and spring it. The wrist transfers and couples force, it doesn't really create force. If you put your forearm in a vice grip and only use the wrist, you might throw 10'. This is where I hate where people say it's all in the wrist, and then you see people try to curl the wrist as much as possible and it creates slack.

 

[BDDG]

I was more interested in how it stiffened the wrist and took the slack out of it, and also toward the end about rotation and perception.

Common advice in disc golf is to lock the wrist straight. That gave me a big breakthrough long time ago and playing around with the hammer in slow motion and how the wrist needs to be tensioned to control the swing weight and spring it. The wrist transfers and couples force, it doesn't really create force. If you put your forearm in a vice grip and only use the wrist, you might throw 10'. This is where I hate where people say it's all in the wrist, and then you see people try to curl the wrist as much as possible and it creates slack.

The Slash Thru video in the beginning of this thread made a lot of sense to me and I believed it helped me with my form. I ran across it a few weeks ago. Thank you very much for all your videos!

Question please. IF I understood the the Slash Thru Video correctly, it talked about feeling the weight of the knife pass thru. (I believe around the 5:20 mark) I took this as a loose wrist so i could feel it pass /whip around.

I also understand the concept of a tight wrist to help "spring" the disc as mentioned above.

How can I practice the 2 concepts together?

Thank you for your time.

 

[sidewinder22]

The Slash Thru video in the beginning of this thread made a lot of sense to me and I believed it helped me with my form. I ran across it a few weeks ago. Thank you very much for all your videos!

Question please. IF I understood the the Slash Thru Video correctly, it talked about feeling the weight of the knife pass thru. (I believe around the 5:20 mark) I took this as a loose wrist so i could feel it pass /whip around.

I also understand the concept of a tight wrist to help "spring" the disc as mentioned above.

How can I practice the 2 concepts together?

Thank you for your time.

If you were to hammer a nail or try and chop down a tree with a loose wrist at the hit, it would likely recoil back at you without doing much damage to the tree, and might do more damage to you. The wrist/body must stiffen up to couple your mass with the acceleration of the hammer/blade and deliver a massive force or blow to or thru the nail/tree. F=M*A.

 

[Flashblastx]

If you were to hammer a nail or try and chop down a tree with a loose wrist at the hit, it would likely recoil back at you without doing much damage to the tree, and might do more damage to you. The wrist/body must stiffen up to couple your mass with the acceleration of the hammer/blade and deliver a massive force or blow to or thru the nail/tree. F=M*A.

This description makes so much sense, very well put! Keeping my wrist straight by tensing up my grip has seemed to be working like you stated above. That rotation part of the video is so true, I totally think of it as spinning the ball around horizontal. Instead of a titled spiral.

One thing I have found myself having trouble with is my shoulders opening when I am pushing off of my brace leg and posting up. My leg is tensing up but my shoulders and torso just whip around. Do you think I should actively try to stiffen up my entire upper body when the disc is around the power pocket?

Watching that David Wiggins hyzer at the European open makes me think he has to be keeping himself closed and bracing the shoulders/torso so that it doesn't open up to the target. Tensing his body up while swimming away from the target with his off arm? So that the only moving piece left is the arm coming in like a sledgehammer. I can do this movement with something heavy but keeping my shoulders from opening with a disc or just swinging my arms seems so hard

Can't figure out how to embed on my phone...

https://youtu.be/4fQ2qJX1A9g

 

[sidewinder22]

This description makes so much sense, very well put! Keeping my wrist straight by tensing up my grip has seemed to be working like you stated above. That rotation part of the video is so true, I totally think of it as spinning the ball around horizontal. Instead of a titled spiral.

One thing I have found myself having trouble with is my shoulders opening when I am pushing off of my brace leg and posting up. My leg is tensing up but my shoulders and torso just whip around. Do you think I should actively try to stiffen up my entire upper body when the disc is around the power pocket?

Watching that David Wiggins hyzer at the European open makes me think he has to be keeping himself closed and bracing the shoulders/torso so that it doesn't open up to the target. Tensing his body up while swimming away from the target with his off arm? So that the only moving piece left is the arm coming in like a sledgehammer. I can do this movement with something heavy but keeping my shoulders from opening with a disc or just swinging my arms seems so hard

Can't figure out how to embed on my phone...

https://youtu.be/4fQ2qJX1A9g

I think so. If you want to backhand smash the hammer/fist into the nail/wall you would never open your shoulders to the target going into the hit because your shoulder joint would collapse or crumple and impede extension - moment arm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s

 

[seedlings]

As the sport grows, there will eventually be a mechanically accurate, detailed, scientific, thorough, AND well produced DG form video. Usually vids have great technical content for a small portion of the DG swing. Or they have good general content for the whole form. The highest production might have a disc path trace. (Just watched the Bruce Lee vid)

 

[Flashblastx]

I think so. If you want to backhand smash the hammer/fist into the nail/wall you would never open your shoulders to the target going into the hit because your shoulder joint would collapse or crumple and impede extension - moment arm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s

Just trying to hammer something that makes a ton of sense. The second you open your shoulders you lose your leverage and it feels very weak. Not many players stay as closed as David. Do you think this is losing leverage? Like Eagle or Macbeth for example, their shoulders appear to open slightly before release. Is this a loss of leverage or is the moment arm and leverage more directed to the right (griplockedish).

I guess you could think of the left arm and shoulder bracing down so the right arm swings on the tilted spiral between left shoulder and right brace leg he just braces his entire body towards the end of the throw, interesting indeed. It seems like you would lose speed from stoping the torso but it's more funneling the power into your arm by decelerating you think?

 

[navel]

Just trying to hammer something that makes a ton of sense. The second you open your shoulders you lose your leverage and it feels very weak. Not many players stay as closed as David. Do you think this is losing leverage? Like Eagle or Macbeth for example, their shoulders appear to open slightly before release. Is this a loss of leverage or is the moment arm and leverage more directed to the right (griplockedish).

I guess you could think of the left arm and shoulder bracing down so the right arm swings on the tilted spiral between left shoulder and right brace leg he just braces his entire body towards the end of the throw, interesting indeed. It seems like you would lose speed from stoping the torso but it's more funneling the power into your arm by decelerating you think?

Imagine you are starting to bring the disc forward from reachback.
First the lead hip will add acceleration to everything thats following it (shoulder, upper arm, lower arm, hand, disc).
As soon as your lead shoulder has caught up with your hip the hip will begin its own follow through instead. Now the lead shoulder will lead the throw and add even more acceleration with everything that's following it (upper arm, lower arm, hand, disc).
When the elbow has caught up with the shoulder it will lead the throw, add acceleration and everything following it (lower arm, hand, disc) will follow. The shoulder will now enter its own follow through. And so on.
It really works like a whip. When you whip a long rope there will be this curl on the rope traveling forward. What happens behind it isn't really important as long as it doesn't disturb the curl traveling on the rope.
So it wouldn't matter if your hips and shoulders open up in their follow through before the disc i released as long as you aren't pulling the curl on the whip so that it gets disoriented.
However, you can add even more whip effect to the rope if you for example pull the whip back while the curl is traveling forward. Force backwards equals force forward for balance. So if your hips and shoulders pull back just by an inch or so at the right moment you will get alot of added acceleration to your throw. If the hips and shoulders are open when they are stopped and "pulled back" doesn't really matter. I think this is correct, but that's just my thoughts on it.

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[RowingBoats]

I feel compelled to bump this thread because it is much, much more relevant to what I was trying to discuss in the Drive Leg Mechanics thread.

This is low-key some of the absolute best information that could have been bestowed upon me forcibly while trying to learn. It is high-key also amazing once you do grasp the swing as a cornerstone concept that, for me, self corrects a lot of nonsense that can crop up.

 

[Nick Carroll]

Personally I like Sidewinder's focus on order of operations more than timing. (at least that's how I interpret it) The focus on kinetic chain sequence is very useful, and easier to focus on in real time than trying to match the throw (or even a putt) with a timing mechanism. Not that you can't focus on that, but I think when it comes to proprioception, you can feel when you get things out of order. And it's easier to train order because of that aspect. Timing - at least in my mind - is more distractionary. Or perhaps it's secondary. Maybe it helps you get in a rhythm, but if you get the sequence wrong, you can end up with really bad throws.

 

[RowingBoats]

Personally I like Sidewinder's focus on order of operations more than timing. (at least that's how I interpret it) The focus on kinetic chain sequence is very useful, and easier to focus on in real time than trying to match the throw (or even a putt) with a timing mechanism. Not that you can't focus on that, but I think when it comes to proprioception, you can feel when you get things out of order. And it's easier to train order because of that aspect. Timing - at least in my mind - is more distractionary. Or perhaps it's secondary. Maybe it helps you get in a rhythm, but if you get the sequence wrong, you can end up with really bad throws.

For sure. Timing to me implies some kind of conscious effort of ordering events/movements. Trying to mimic positions like some kind of magical incantation for a powerful swing was the definition of my first few months trying to actually learn lol.

Concepts like the one described in this thread are the big deals for me. Things that kind of eluded my intuition about how to throw a disc shaped object. I went pretty quickly from not understanding anything at all to throwing 400' once I found out where exactly I was trying to maximize my acceleration.

I am not sure if I actually read this thread early on. It seems like I might have but if I did, I did NOT get it. Some combination of this thread's concept, the one leg drill, and the closed shoulder snap drill would have sped up my learning so, so much if I was coached and forced to actually get it lol.

 

[Brychanus]

For sure. Timing to me implies some kind of conscious effort of ordering events/movements. Trying to mimic positions like some kind of magical incantation for a powerful swing was the definition of my first few months trying to actually learn lol.

Concepts like the one described in this thread are the big deals for me. Things that kind of eluded my intuition about how to throw a disc shaped object. I went pretty quickly from not understanding anything at all to throwing 400' once I found out where exactly I was trying to maximize my acceleration.

I am not sure if I actually read this thread early on. It seems like I might have but if I did, I did NOT get it. Some combination of this thread's concept, the one leg drill, and the closed shoulder snap drill would have sped up my learning so, so much if I was coached and forced to actually get it lol.

I went through the long process of putting the "Fundamentals" guide together in part to see if it helped me with any "big picture" ideas by forcing me to read through a lot of excellent threads like that one.

It did, but one of the important things that happened afterward is also what seems like is happening to you - you connected with a "gestalt" and are trying to run with it. The 10 o'clock or whatever might be a way to talk about it if you "work back from the hit" and don't get too hung up on the angulation. I think "swinging out from the center" like SW mentions is great and simplifies a lot. Seems like some people get different bits to work faster than others.

One point is you are just doing it - commiting the athletic motion that strings all the parts well enough together to launch the sucker. For many people who still struggle with swing/pull/throw and how to "leverage out from the center,"* I think it's possibly more important to just plain find an athletic motion that gets it to start working using the entire body and commit to it.

*I recently started warming up with 2 finger grips just focusing on leveraging out the disc from my center was an awesome way to get loose working on mechanics, and makes it much more likely that when I switch to my preferred grip and full swing that I wasn't spoiling the "tip of the whip." I knew about this trick from this forum a while ago, but just an example that revisiting old tricks can scaffold new learning.

Personally I like Sidewinder's focus on order of operations more than timing. (at least that's how I interpret it) The focus on kinetic chain sequence is very useful, and easier to focus on in real time than trying to match the throw (or even a putt) with a timing mechanism. Not that you can't focus on that, but I think when it comes to proprioception, you can feel when you get things out of order. And it's easier to train order because of that aspect. Timing - at least in my mind - is more distractionary. Or perhaps it's secondary. Maybe it helps you get in a rhythm, but if you get the sequence wrong, you can end up with really bad throws.

For timing: I'm still really grateful I spend a lot of time on overall rhythm itself, within which many timing issues can be addressed (which of course is not to say that specific timing cues can't help!). Golf still has some of the best developed rhythm concepts and I find it helpful to do other exercises that involve rhythmic weight shifts while leveraging objects. That's part of what unifies a lot of movement concepts across swinging and throwing sports, it seems.