Need help developing better consistency...

[Darth Disc'er]

Hi everyone, new-ish player here, been disc'ing since last August. Played a competitive event last weekend and realized that my ability to hit lines correctly is very lacking to say the least. In that regard I ask for your advice in helping me develop better throwing habits to eventually include better distance overall.

Currently throwing around 300 (I can standstill throw 220-250) pretty effortlessly with a fairway. Haven't been throwing any distance drivers, worked on stand still for the first 5 months then tried to develop the xstep and I think I messed up somewhere in integrating that into my throw.

I've looked at other posts on here and watched the majority of the videos referenced in the best practices/guidelines section but where do I start even to begin to break this down.
Also since my employment status is currently nyet I do have a bunch of free time on my hands to try to improve but am curious as to how much time I should spend each day working on drills, field work, etc.

I do better with a schedule so say 30-45 min a day too much or 5 days a week, etc?
Should I continue to play casually while working on these elements with the basis that getting worse before I improve is a given?
Are there specific drills that I can incorporate both in the field and in the backyard to learn better muscle memory for the motion involved?

I really would like to get a training schedule going for myself daily to motivate me through the rough patches and help hold my consistency when working on a specific form element.

I do have a tripod/cellphone recording setup now so I can thankfully get some footage to you all but very much appreciate the advice and the discussion to help me make some things click finally.





1. I can definitely see the "hop" that somehow got added into the side and rear throw. From the back I can see that my disc through the hit point is way far away from my chest which I'm assuming is wrong.

Should I go back to standstill and work Beto drill till I can pull through tighter to the chest and extend closed shoulder?

2. Also I guess my lead shoulder (right for me backhand) is higher than the left maybe causing that dip in the reach to pull through? Not sure how to fix this issue.

I can do footwork drills inside or outside but what should I be focusing on specifically? Striding towards target? Keeping the disc in a fixed spot while moving around it.

Appreciate the advice and will report back with progress/ issues as I can and again thanks for the knowledge you guys bring to help new players.

 

[sidewinder22]

You start very stiff and static holding at the right pec position, but you never come close to getting back to it. Let your arm/disc swing back and forth setting up to the release position, and get more dynamic rather than static.

You are hugging yourself/rounding and elbow is coming through really low. Need to turn your shoulders much further back and let the right shoulder swing back and forth like a pendulum under your chin and swing the arm taut pulled from the body so your elbow should get pulled up and out away from your body instead of you pulling your elbow into the body. See Stop Hugging Yourself, Reciprocating Dingle Arm and Door Frame Drills.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119328

 

[Darth Disc'er]

Thank you for the prompt response.

I am going to work Hugging and Dingle arm concepts today as the rounding is probably the worst of the issues here.

To summarize the video concepts my goals from the "Stop Hugging Yourself" video are to :

1. Spin around in a circle with a heavy weighted object (I recently obtained a Mallet for this) bending the throwing arm at your center feeling the weight of the object then stopping the turning momentum and allowing the weight of the swing pull my arm around to the target

2. Feel naturally where to accelerate the disc out of the spin and through to the target (I believe this is part in practice of the "Dingle Arm" video concepts) as well where you are swinging the disc almost looks like from front to back and the weight feels like it is pulling greatest over the front staggered right foot?

3. Work wide swing twisting in place to center of body narrow/ tight then back out as the motion transfers around to stop (brace) which would equate to the throw

3. In the backswing feel the weight off the front foot transfer over to the back foot and come back forward with the weight delaying the arm whip

My issues it would seem stem from the 2:40 timestamp "Stop Hugging yourself" example where the disc is trapped behind my left shoulder and is having to come around my body instead of my body getting out of the way of the disc. Or maybe its I am not wide enough in the backswing could also be not committed in the shoulder turn.

So in practice today I will swing the hammer around a bit and try to conceptualize these concepts of being loose, feeling the weight of the hammer do the work. I am also looking into the door frame videos now to get an understanding of what to work on, be cognizant of while working these to best effect.

As far as tomorrow I get a chance to go out and throw in a field should I bring the hammer with me? Will that help to first swing the hammer back and forth do a few tosses then pick up a disc and try to repeat the steps in sequence?

Also for the "heel hit to whip" example in "Dingle Arm" video at 6:17 I can work that with a few discs I assume staying loose and waiting for the motion to feel natural before engaging the whip fully to let the disc come out via excessive force rather than letting it go.

I will definitely be throwing standstill again this week unless you think abandoning foot work is a bad idea for now, but fixing rounding overall should be my big goal to start with.

Should I be worried about more footage, post what I try and achieve would help review to make sure I am getting these concepts correct. I am not worried about distance, disc flight etc while doing drills this way correct? I will be using a stack of beat in putters and some Mako3's about the most neutral discs I own low speed.

Thanks again for all the help and input, and please correct me if I am getting these concepts wrong.

 

[slowplastic]

2. Feel naturally where to accelerate the disc out of the spin and through to the target (I believe this is part in practice of the "Dingle Arm" video concepts) as well where you are swinging the disc almost looks like from front to back and the weight feels like it is pulling greatest over the front staggered right foot?

3. Work wide swing twisting in place to center of body narrow/ tight then back out as the motion transfers around to stop (brace) which would equate to the throw

3. In the backswing feel the weight off the front foot transfer over to the back foot and come back forward with the weight delaying the arm whip

My issues it would seem stem from the 2:40 timestamp "Stop Hugging yourself" example where the disc is trapped behind my left shoulder and is having to come around my body instead of my body getting out of the way of the disc. Or maybe its I am not wide enough in the backswing could also be not committed in the shoulder turn.

This is all kind of related.

You are pushing yourself into rotation off of your rear leg...the front/right leg is stopping you and the left/rear leg is pushing you into rotation trying to power your throw. This means your body is aligned to your rear leg, and this is incorrect.

You are rounding the throw because your axis is aligned to the rear leg, so the arm has to kind of go "around" the wrong point and the arm/disc get pinned to your chest and you round the throw.

You need to feel how to land on the right leg in balance, spine aligned on the right leg, wait to land on this leg and then the hip/leg extension will begin the rotation and the right shoulder will then pull the arm around correctly. No more rounding this way. It's basically impossible not to round your throw if you are aligned on the rear leg and pushing rotation from the rear foot.

If you are doing standstill shots, while allowing yourself to lift a foot off the ground when necessary, think of the backswing and forward swing as close to mirror images/feel. In the backswing you land on the left leg and are aligned to this leg. Then at the top of the backswing you land on the right leg which was previously deweighted. As the right leg is weighted the left foot will naturally lift and your hips clearing from leg extension will begin the forward rotation. This rotation around the spine/right leg will pull the right arm from the shoulder and since it is pulled rather than compressed/pushed feeling, it will stay on plane more easily.

 

[Darth Disc'er]

Thanks for the advice. I am looking at my form now from the footage I put up and it does look like I am driving off the rear foot. I always had this concept of clearing the weight off the back foot into the throw to get the rotation going for the hips>shoulders>arm>wrist chain.

I did some drills with the hammer in the garage this afternoon can't say I 100% am feeling the weight of the snap of the hammer moving forward completely. I may try and take it out with me and throw the hammer out a few times feeling its weight driving my arm out. My main concern is still not loose enough with the arm, forcing the elbow to collapse so the hammer/mallet head almost hits me center chest still speaks that I'm not loose enough using torque from the body / ground to get the rotation going. Its hard to tell if it is happening naturally or if I am forcing it mentally because I believe it is correct in my sub brain deep down.

The door frame drill did feel powerful though with a lot of pressure on the left foot as I reached back to grab it noticing my shoulders turned a lot more away from the target line with the right side butt cheek facing towards the target. I don't know if plant foot should turn slightly (toes 45 degrees off center heel facing more to target) away when I do this or keep it more flat on the ground. Also frame of reference is that I definitely don't want to be pulling on the frame from anywhere behind my intended line so I should be wide on that pull not left of my right shoulder if I am looking back? I caught myself doing this at first and figure it is wrong.

I am going to find some exercise equipment at the park and try to pull on that a few times like I'm doing the door frame drill and then get a stand still throw in after and see if I can feel the difference.

I will say I have struggled with balance and even suffered a major injury from flying off a tee pad a few years ago trying to play this sport and it completely turned me off to it. Tipping over my front side was something I wanted to avoid like the plague since the injury left me crutches bound for a good 3 months. If there is any way I can work on the concepts you outlined there with the front side / balance issue let me know.

Thanks again for the shared wisdom.

 

[slowplastic]

I think one leg drill is your best course of action. Door frame drill is great for feeling how to turn back without tipping back, but the next step that the door frame drill leads into is landing on the front leg, aligned on the front leg. You will then swing from this alignment. If you are doing the door frame drill incorrectly you'll feel like you can get even more leverage into the rear instep by pushing off of the rear instep against your arm...but this leads to rotation from the rear leg and on the wrong balance axis.

Check out the baseball themed videos in this thread too. So the last videos in the second post. It shows how the front hip clears the body into rotation, not the rear leg pushing forward.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133543

 

[sidewinder22]

The door frame drill did feel powerful though with a lot of pressure on the left foot as I reached back to grab it noticing my shoulders turned a lot more away from the target line with the right side butt cheek facing towards the target. I don't know if plant foot should turn slightly (toes 45 degrees off center heel facing more to target) away when I do this or keep it more flat on the ground. Also frame of reference is that I definitely don't want to be pulling on the frame from anywhere behind my intended line so I should be wide on that pull not left of my right shoulder if I am looking back? I caught myself doing this at first and figure it is wrong.

Your whole arm/thru back of shoulder should be pointed straight down the trajectory at max door frame, and your front heel should not be able to be weighted on the ground yet, until you release from the door frame.

 

[Darth Disc'er]

Hey thanks for the reply guys.

I looked up the one leg drill checked my notes and I've tried this before on my own so this time I took notes with me out to the field to keep myself in check ideally on what I was to be focused in on.

I started off doing some just perpetual motion swings back and forth with the disc in my hand trying to feel the "whip" engage on one foot, doing my best to stay upright and balanced.

I won't say it completely clicked in that motion definitely felt awkward although I forgot to bring my hammer so I will pack that along with everything for tomorrow's work.




For the rest I tried doing one leg drill with small reach back, maybe few inches past my back shoulder. One thing I did notice is I'm not getting my shoulder down enough under my chin, it was a real struggle to remember to do that.

As far as the balance and follow through go I am worried in these clips I am still getting a tiny push off the back toe used for balance on the unweighted foot when turning so this habit maybe a bit tougher to break in the long term. The backside view looked like the disc is in tighter but that maybe that I'm just rounding more efficiently instead of getting it straight out, there were a few shots that looked off my line by a good 45 degrees but it wasn't consistently happening.

I am going to work these drills the rest of the week and put up some more critique then unless you guys need daily updates. (I don't want to overload you guys with requests) I have the time and really just want to improve here while I do have the time, seems a waste to not get after this.

I will also check out the Shawn clement stuff, no background in baseball or any other throwing sport. Best I did was basketball, good solid core in swimming and running though made me think that better form or more efficient form is the way to go here. Flip turns are murder on time if done incorrectly.

Appreciate you guys help, any more critiques' ideas on how I can get there more efficiently is much appreciated.

 

[slowplastic]

You're doing what I think of as kind of a "safe" version of one leg drill...trying to not overdo it to get thrown forward because you're not completely counterweighted correctly. If you are set up right you can allow yourself to have a lot more of that torso tilt over the toes which will rotate/turn with you as you backswing and forward swing, and your rear leg and butt will counterbalance yourself automatically still.

SW is really good at specifics in these drills. So I'll say a couple things in general.

First, you are very upright/vertical. Your spine is super upright as you can see from the rear view. In your backswing this doesn't let any of your body get out of the way so your arm is kind of stuck to your chest. More squat by a bit, more torso tilt by a bit. Give yourself some tilt so that when you turn back you'll have room to swing the arm and shoulder under your chin...imitate a golf swing once or twice and feel how the arms need to have room to turn. Also you need this tilt so your butt can be a counterweight. Watch when SW does the one leg drill, how his tilt makes his body look like it leans a bit during backswing, but he is not leaning...just tilted. As well you can see that his rear foot's heel turns to touch the ground during the backswing, if you are tilted and turning correctly it will feel natural to allow the rear leg to rotate this way.

The other thing is it looks to me that your right shoulder stays in place during the throw, and your sternum and left shoulder move around it. You need to make sure that you are forward/targetward enough over the right leg to allow the right shoulder to swing out past the foot, and to swing with the spine balanced and centered. Again, without the correct setup and counterweighted feeling it feels impossible to allow the arm to be that far forward, so that's what leads me to saying you are throwing a "safe" feeling one leg throw, not overdoing it because you know you'd get tossed around a bit.

 

[Darth Disc'er]

Thanks for that critique slowplastic.

I am seeing how I am 100% upright in the back view throw I look like a toothpick stuck in the ground. I will work on that, the correct set up for that is to sit back into the hips with the bend at the waist so the head is still over the toes, correct?

When he mentions head up that means your not looking down at all at the disc or ground you'd want the chin level to allow for the shoulder to come underneath it? I think that's part of my problem too I look down at the disc in the pocket before I extend it backwards.

I was very timid about these today so more power and try to setup better for it tomorrow. I believe I have a pair of crutches here somewhere so I am going to experiment with the twisted spiral concept see if that makes anything else click.

When you say

You need to make sure that you are forward/targetward enough over the right leg to allow the right shoulder to swing out past the foot

so the shoulder should come out over the foot as the forearm / elbow hinge unwinds? I guess this is a new concept for me to play around with or it never occurred to me before this happens.

I am also curious what I could expect if I go full power tomorrow what will happen if I do this wrong? Spinning out in place or more likely tipping over the front side if I am not balanced properly? Help if I know what to expect trying to get this right but challenges abound.

Thanks for your help in getting me to understand these concepts better, I salute you.

 

[slowplastic]

Don't go full power...build up slowly. But go unrestrained feeling rather. Like let it flow. If your body falls and you have to step out of it...then you know you did it wrong and that's the point, to learn and improve. I'd aim to say get 150-250' out of a putter, anywhere in that range should show you things.

The right shoulder should be out past the right foot essentially, so that it is pulling and leveraging the arm. The spine turns over the foot/leg, so the right shoulder is ahead of the spine. Right now your right shoulder is essentially over the foot, rather than turned and leveraged from the spine because you aren't laterally forward toward the target enough and trusting the counterweight.

You want your chin/head in balance with the spine. Don't try to keep it level or any direction relative to the ground...your spine will be tilted and let the head turn with the spine. The head may feel like it moves slowly or very little, but that's because it's turning WITH your body so it isn't having to do much. So it feeling pretty still may not be it actually staying still on video, if that makes sense. Basically stay in balance and let it happen.

For the tilt, have a bit of bend in the knee and a bit of bend at the waist. The bend in the knee will help you be able to extend the leg/hip during the swing. Bend at waist will help you turn with the butt and torso counterweighting each other and having some space to swing the shoulder/arm through.

When this drill is done incorrectly there are lots of things that are typical. If you have no counterweight you'll spin forward at the same time and rate as your arm and it will feel impossible to get any speed and power. If you are coming down over the top and not trusting to get your butt and spine over the leg, then you'll feel like you are driving your spine and torso down toward the ground in front of your plant foot. There are lots of other things too, but those are typically what it feels like.

Kind of aim for that athletic tilt over your toes, left/right wise on the teepad...but then way more forward laterally toward the target with the shoulder more past your foot than you think you are able to control. This is where you have to trust to let it happen...if your arm releases out/away, then your left leg should counterweight back from the target. Your torso may tilt forward and that's fine if you can stay standing and not feel like you fall. The angled feeling will be natural.

 

[Darth Disc'er]

Hey there just a quick update.

Spent a good hour today throwing 2 putters and brought the hammer with me. Really was trying to get a feel for swinging the hammer back and forth and then having enough room to release it and feel the pull of the swing and the arm extending. I to be honest am not quite sure I am there yet internalizing everything.

The hammer had a few grip locks where it would sail way off where I thought it would. The less I consciously tried to think about where I needed to throw it and just swing it hard and let it pop out on its own seemed to go straighter.

I apologize with the video for today, I was a bit juiced after a good session in the sun. I need to be slower or more deliberate with each rep I think as it looks like I am standing up straight again in this one.




I don't think I am there quite yet feeling the back pressure of the leg counter balancing the arm rotating out away from me just yet, I was more focused today on getting the shoulder down low, and committing to the pull through extending the arm fully and letting it just swing naturally around outside in the follow through.

Definitely will be out there again tomorrow hopefully a bit earlier since the sun its up and cooking these days regionally here.

On a side note the putter did feel very effortless getting distance. I was quite surprised by how far they were carrying and a good bit more straighter than I usually see out of each throw. Emphasizes that good practice can produce good results. I have your recommendations Slowplastic in a print out I take and review every 4 or 5 shots just to internalize the concepts in my head as much as possible.

Thanks again for your time in reviewing my progress.

 

[sidewinder22]

Need to keep your elbow up and out away from your body. Your elbow/disc drops down next your hip almost during the swing.

Also swing forward before you start the backswing. You are starting from an imaginary static position rather than moving around more dynamically like a ball on string or pendulum back and forth, back and forth.

 

[slowplastic]

Have you tried the elephant walk drill? In the behind view especially I'm seeing that you are squatting down as the hammer is coming forward to the power pocket/elbow forward position, and rising as it is leaving.

Instead you should be landing/squatting/weighting the front leg as the hammer reaches the top of the backswing, and then clearing the hips/extending to bring the hammer and arm forward, beginning the rotation.

I agree that starting with a forward swing and having a bit of tempo helps too.

 

[Darth Disc'er]

Hey there guys,

Gave this a try today trying to keep the arm loose let it swing a few times forward and backwards looks like I am still suffering from the same problems outlined before.



Shoulder looks too tense to me like I am trying to drive the rotation from it instead of letting it come around with momentum outward.

Disc is high to low at waist level near release explains the wobble on the ejection and probably loosing power there.

I am also not seeing any shift from the back leg forward to behind yet either so still working on that as well.

I see the squatting your talking about as I come through so I'll try and get a handle on that tomorrow also fix these issues. I spot checked a good few times with film throughout the session so something is not clicking yet in my head to get over these problems but I'll get there with time and practice.

I was toying around with a planter in the backyard a bit last night, trying to throw it in my mind through a door out in front of me with force, I believe that is a way to feel the front leg posting and clearing the back leg of weight and forward.

I am not familiar with the elephant walk, is it in the sticky for vids I'll look for it up there. I've tried the Shawn Clement walking swing drill with just a disc retriever as I do not have a golf club trying to cut the grass in front of me and getting the hip down before the swing through, its just the plane of motion in my head is throwing that off somehow. Maybe worth a shot to try again.

I was looking up Trebuchet videos seeing the theory behind that makes sense from the hinge perspective, would you say that the weight in a trebuchet is ground resistance torque and the body is really just a hinge for the pivot in the throw? Make sense at all?

Appreciate your help, apologies for nothing positive just yet, bear with me. Thanks!

 

[slowplastic]

I think that's an improvement, but there are a couple things.

First, your arm plane is pretty wacky on the forward swing. Let the shoulder pendulum under your chin, or keep the same tilted shoulder rotation on the forward swing as you have in the backswing. In the backswing your right shoulder swings under the chin and left shoulder moves back and up, both around the spine. Should be the same thing the other way when you move forward. Instead you keep the right shoulder high and turn around a vertical axis. I know it may seem counterintuitive to be able to throw a flat release with a tilted shoulder plane...but this is the direction to go in.

The other, is that you are turning forward with everything at the same time, kind of holding the arm with you instead of letting it have its own momentum. The elephant walk is at 4:40 of this video, it should help you feel how to plant and then swing, and let the arm have momentum into the apex of the backswing or forward pump while you plant on the opposite leg. Check out the whole video, but that drill in particular is one to try to feel correctly. Note how the foot lands before the arm even starts moving the other direction.

https://youtu.be/Y-KVWfUkQ3s?t=279

 

[slowplastic]

I was looking up Trebuchet videos seeing the theory behind that makes sense from the hinge perspective, would you say that the weight in a trebuchet is ground resistance torque and the body is really just a hinge for the pivot in the throw? Make sense at all?

The weight of the trebuchet should be your butt and left side countering the throw on the opposite side of your torso, and opposite side of your spine...as far as I understand and feel. You are not planting soon enough relative to the forward swing, so your rotation and extension of the plant leg all happens together, rather than plant->clear weight->throwing position->swing.

 

[sidewinder22]

Can't see your plant foot, but can tell you are pivoting on the toes rather than the heel with how your knee fully extends and backs up away from the target at release. To remain balanced on the front foot you can't fully extend/lockout the knee.

 

[Darth Disc'er]

Great info thanks guys.

Yes I think that's part of my issues with staying balanced also is the toe pivot. Hard to have any weight down driving around that point and maintain upright when its such a small contact point with the ground.

I am still in the one leg drill stance these are still viable tips for working that drill as well?

I noticed in the Hammer swing video timestamp 1:58 says Top of backswing, COG shifts diagonally to the braced rear leg and butt goes to target to counter backswing.
Then at Release COG shifts diagonally to the front leg butt swivels back to counter the release of the arm.
My brain is processing this currently but the shift is not forward completely but 45 degrees I guess right to left on the teepad then is where that tip comes from?

As for the elephant walk just normal walking stance then, stay leaned over athletically swinging the hammer back and forth waiting for the step then swing eventually releasing, arm stays fluid and loose.

Some good pointers the handle on the hammer being the lead into the wrist lagging behind like a whip head also is a good thing I will be mindful on tomorrow.

Thanks for the tips I appreciate the feedback.

 

[slowplastic]

I noticed in the Hammer swing video timestamp 1:58 says Top of backswing, COG shifts diagonally to the braced rear leg and butt goes to target to counter backswing.
Then at Release COG shifts diagonally to the front leg butt swivels back to counter the release of the arm.

Think like a baseball batter. Aligned to the pitcher, they shift within their stance toward the pitcher. If they connect right they pull the ball like 30 degrees closed. So line up slightly diagonal and that is your balance, shift, momentum line. Shift straight within/on this line, and allow the release to be closed/right of this setup for RHBH.

As for the elephant walk just normal walking stance then, stay leaned over athletically swinging the hammer back and forth waiting for the step then swing eventually releasing, arm stays fluid and loose.

Yeah pretty much. Let the arm have its own momentum. Don't necessarily be "loose" or floppy with the arm, control and leverage it through your body from the step you take. Should feel like you can power it down toward the ground and then it flings out past your leg and upward to the next arc. As it nears the apex on its own, you step and land on the other leg, repeat.

Some good pointers the handle on the hammer being the lead into the wrist lagging behind like a whip head also is a good thing I will be mindful on tomorrow.

Yes, but don't "crack" the whip loosely or think spinny flingy rotation or anything. Think a bit tighter terms like lag, leverage, eject. Got to go THROUGH this arc, not just get to it and snap.