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Off Axis Torque

ERicJ

* Ace Member *
Diamond level trusted reviewer
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
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4,072
When it comes to proper technique there's often mention of "off axis torque", typically in a negative connotation.

What is the effect of off axis torque on a disc's flight?

What characteristics lead a player to impart off axis torque? And thus what can be done to minimize them?

ERic
 
Torque is a roational force about an axis. In the case of disc golf, off axis torque is a roational force about an axis that doesn't go through the center of the disc in a direction perpendicular to the flight plate at the time of release.

OAT can cause the disc to act either more or less overstable than the disc would if the throw was clean. Most of the OAT you hear talked about in a negative manor stems from people trying to throw discs that are faster than the thrower can control. To get the discs to fly straight and far the thrower will learn to add OAT to get the disc to act more understable. If they were to throw a slower disc like that it would most likely flip and turn into a cut roller. The result you get are players who can only either throw really fast discs sorta far (350' max) but with little control and they are unable to get slower fairway drivers, mids and putters to do anything but flip.

The two biggest motions that contribute to OAT are wrist roll (either under or over) and lack of plane preservation with your arm and shoulders on your follow through. Rolling your wrist over (your palm is facing the sky immediately after the hit) and following through on a lower angle than the discs' angle at the hit cause discs to act more understable. The opposite cause discs to act more overstable. The former is a much more common problem.

OAT, when intentional, can also be used to control a discs's flight and shape lines. Say you want to have the disc flip from hyzer to flat, glide a bit, turn over, glide farther and then fade. You can throw a disc like a beat DX Eagle-X on a hyzer, but finish on an angle less than the hyzer angle. Controlling how much of a difference there is between the angles will allow you to control when the Eagle goes from straight to tracking right. Depending on how beat the Eagle is, the disc will either continue tracking right, fade back to straight and glide a bit, or fade back left. Once you get good at these types of shots (sometimes called roll curves), the negative effect of choosing the wrong beatness of fairway driver will have a small impact (perhaps 10') rather than a large one (30'-40' off for choosing the wrong mold).

Roll under can be used effectively too. Say you have a shot that's kind of short for a midrange, but there's a stiff left turn at the end. You can throw your mid with less hyzer than normal and roll under (or follow through on a higher angle) and the disc will either hold a hyzer the whole time or fade out earlier/harder than it would on a normal shot.

One of the easist ways to get roll under out of your throw is to practice throwing your most understable plastic on pure hyzers. Start off short and lengthen how far you throw, avoiding letting the discs flip up from a hyzer at all. Eventually you'll get the feel for how to control the wrist roll. Your slower discs will fly farther and be much easier to control and the speed you gain (or stop losing from OAT) might make the best longer range disc for you more obvious. You'll start seeing lines you never knew existed, using discs for shots you never imagined would work (I threw a flippy Gazelle ~350' into a headwind a couple weeks ago) and you'll amaze people because it starts looking like your discs are remote controlled.
 
A lot of times when I drive with my Rocs they come out of my hand, quickly go to the right and end up about 90 feet away when I wanted a good 230' and fall to the leftout of it.Other times I can throw them 250' and have them fall to the left like I want. Is the sloppy throw that I described OAT?
 
Thanks. I think we had talked about this before when I was looking for an overstable mid-range disc for drives. You thought was that I was Just throwing the disc wrong, perhaps OAT. I do agree and I will try to focus more on my wrists when throwing. I will keep you posted.
 
Focus on getting it so your palm is neutral to facing downward right after the hit. Also focus on preserving the angle your shoulders are on and matching that angle to the anlge you're throwing on. A 10 degree hyzer should start with your right shoulder 10 degrees below your left shoulder on the reach back (assuming RHBH) and end with your right shoulder 10 degrees above your left shoulder on the follow through.
 
What about a disc that 'flutters' after release? I notice when my friend throws hard the disc kind of vibrates rapidly for about 50' before it smooths out. Is that OAT? Throughout this past year his drives have been getting better without the flutter, but I am not sure what is causing it. Every once in a while I notice he still has a little flutter after the release and that usually results in a shorter drive...
 
What about a disc that 'flutters' after release? I notice when my friend throws hard the disc kind of vibrates rapidly for about 50' before it smooths out. Is that OAT? Throughout this past year his drives have been getting better without the flutter, but I am not sure what is causing it. Every once in a while I notice he still has a little flutter after the release and that usually results in a shorter drive...
It's almost definitely OAT, especally if it's anything faster than a putter.
 
OAT diagnosis and herbal remedies?

I hate to admit it but i have a mild case of OAT.:(

What are the best exercises to get me back to throwing without OAT.

What are the best discs to reveal technique?

All help MUCH appreciated!

(to save a little wonga if you could suggest from my collection below)


i have.
2x 1080putters
2x banger GT soft/esp
1x Whittler

2xBuzz FLX
1x Comet ESP
1x champ stingray
1x old very flippy roc

2x champ teebird
2x surge z /esp
1x preadator esp
1x champ sidewinder
1x destroyer
1x boss
1x old teerex flippy.
 
I hate to admit it but i have a mild case of OAT.:(

What are the best exercises to get me back to throwing without OAT.

What are the best discs to reveal technique?
If it's only a mild case then you're doing a lot better than most people.

As for how to help elimiate roll-over:

One of the easist ways to get roll under out of your throw is to practice throwing your most understable plastic on pure hyzers. Start off short and lengthen how far you throw, avoiding letting the discs flip up from a hyzer at all. Eventually you'll get the feel for how to control the wrist roll. Your slower discs will fly farther and be much easier to control and the speed you gain (or stop losing from OAT) might make the best longer range disc for you more obvious. You'll start seeing lines you never knew existed, using discs for shots you never imagined would work (I threw a flippy Gazelle ~350' into a headwind a couple weeks ago) and you'll amaze people because it starts looking like your discs are remote controlled.

So the slowest and flippiest of the discs you have will be the best to use.
 
I think I understand what OAT is on the wrists, but is there another part of your body that you can "commit" OAT with? I was thinking your back, say if you start bent over and end leaning back? I'm not sure, i'm just wondering if the wrists are the only way to do it.
 
I think I understand what OAT is on the wrists, but is there another part of your body that you can "commit" OAT with? I was thinking your back, say if you start bent over and end leaning back? I'm not sure, i'm just wondering if the wrists are the only way to do it.
Shoulder plane preservation is the other biggie.

Check out this image:

2574399335_24d2ff72a6.jpg


You can see that Avery's shoulders are on a hyzer plane and that he threw a hyzer. That's a clean throw. If his shoulders would have been parallel to the ground that would give you the same OAT as wrist roll over. If his shoulders were on a steeper hyzer plane that would give you the same OAT as wrist roll under. Controlling this is an excellent way to shape lines with "workable" drivers. It's easy to control just how much OAT you impart.

Incorrect grip can also contribute to OAT, but I find that it's easy to correct. Just follow this:

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/gripittoripit.shtml

and you'll be good. Because it's a static element (your grip doesn't change throughout the throw) it's an easy thing to fix and get right.
 
Sholder plane preservation is what i really struggle with, naturally my follow through comes round and down. It doesnt seem to happen when i intentionally throw hyzers, but if i try to play a straight flat full power mid / putter*, I can guarantee it will unintentionally roll/pitch a little right. Main culprits are the Banger ESP and FLX Buzz they SHOULD be straight as an arrow.

Im sure im being thick but im not sure what you mean about the wrist roll exercise, are you mean to learn to push the discs flight plate down or up on the moment of release? Any videos on this?
 
Sholder plane preservation is what i really struggle with, naturally my follow through comes round and down. It doesnt seem to happen when i intentionally throw hyzers, but if i try to play a straight flat full power mid / putter*, I can guarantee it will unintentionally roll/pitch a little right. Main culprits are the Banger ESP and FLX Buzz they SHOULD be straight as an arrow.
I struggle with the exact same thing.

Im sure im being thick but im not sure what you mean about the wrist roll exercise, are you mean to learn to push the discs flight plate down or up on the moment of release? Any videos on this?
The exercise is to throw hyzers with flippy plastic. Any sort of wrist roll over (thumb rotating twards the sky at release) will make this impossible. Wrist roll under (thumb rotating twards the ground at release) will make this easier. The idea is to get the feel of what it's like to throw without rolling over.
 
What about a disc that 'flutters' after release? I notice when my friend throws hard the disc kind of vibrates rapidly for about 50' before it smooths out. Is that OAT? Throughout this past year his drives have been getting better without the flutter, but I am not sure what is causing it. Every once in a while I notice he still has a little flutter after the release and that usually results in a shorter drive...

It's almost definitely OAT, especally if it's anything faster than a putter.

I struggle with the exact same flutter thing when throwing forearm if I use my arm too much. I found that by slowing down my arm speed and trying to get all my distance out of the snap that I can eliminate the flutter but my distance suffers.
 
I struggle with the exact same flutter thing when throwing forearm if I use my arm too much. I found that by slowing down my arm speed and trying to get all my distance out of the snap that I can eliminate the flutter but my distance suffers.
The only potential help I can give with forehand is to make sure your palm is perpendicular to the disc rather than parallel to it. If your hand is facing the sky then from what I understand you can't help but have OAT. I'm far from a forehand expert, though.
 
This is excellent information and explains those odd "what the hell was that?" throws I make from time to time. I think we can all say we have experienced this phenomenon. I have noticed some of the items you mentioned like shoulder plane preservation. I just did not put it all together into a cohesive package.

Thanks
 
One of the easist ways to get roll under out of your throw is to practice throwing your most understable plastic on pure hyzers. Start off short and lengthen how far you throw, avoiding letting the discs flip up from a hyzer at all. Eventually you'll get the feel for how to control the wrist roll. Your slower discs will fly farther and be much easier to control and the speed you gain (or stop losing from OAT) might make the best longer range disc for you more obvious. You'll start seeing lines you never knew existed, using discs for shots you never imagined would work (I threw a flippy Gazelle ~350' into a headwind a couple weeks ago) and you'll amaze people because it starts looking like your discs are remote controlled.

Amazing how the most obvious advice you never think of doing.


This makes perfect sense at a way to eliminate turnover yet Ive never thought to try it, thanks for the post.
 
Amazing how the most obvious advice you never think of doing.

This makes perfect sense at a way to eliminate turnover yet Ive never thought to try it, thanks for the post.

And it sounds difficult, which is probably a sign I should practice it. :)
 

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