Offseason Improvement Thread

[Brychanus]

Lateral strides - I think you need to relax your posture a little more. I move like a dumptruck compared to you, but one reason I get the low effort power that I do is because I've got more relaxed posture at the lumbar region & moving relaxed like "hugging a trashcan." That lets your mAss lead better at all stages of the swing, is better on the back, etc. It also creates more space for the disc to approach and "confront" your body before launching out. Take those advantages and your levers and you've got a high overall power potential.

I'd have to think more about a couple details here from a DG perspective, but for you, pay attention to what he says about "hollow body" posture here for a sand bag/trashcan carry. Relax into that and breath easy:




I think both SW and SocraDeez had soccer backgrounds and both of them have helped me. You want to get that kind of muscle memory active but adapt it to disc golf posture & 1 arm toss.

IMO seabas22 kick the can is good to work on while you're doing this stuff at your track there.

 

[TonLocVT]

Lateral strides - I think you need to relax your posture a little more. I move like a dumptruck compared to you, but one reason I get the low effort power that I do is because I've got more relaxed posture at the lumbar region & moving relaxed like "hugging a trashcan." That lets your mAss lead better at all stages of the swing, is better on the back, etc. It also creates more space for the disc to approach and "confront" your body before launching out. Take those advantages and your levers and you've got a high overall power potential.

I'd have to think more about a couple details here from a DG perspective, but for you, pay attention to what he says about "hollow body" posture here for a sand bag/trashcan carry. Relax into that and breath easy:




I think both SW and SocraDeez had soccer backgrounds and both of them have helped me. You want to get that kind of muscle memory active but adapt it to disc golf posture & 1 arm toss.

IMO seabas22 kick the can is good to work on while you're doing this stuff at your track there.

.

This is totally adjustable. This must be the "Cobra Posture" SW22 talked to me about earlier in this thread. I didn't realize I should maintain it for the entire run, up, wind up, and throw. Should I?

I like the kick the can drill, I may work on that a bit this weekend, too.

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah, of course the body is moving, but think of the dynamic posture as how your body moves as a unit. The "hump the goat" and related issues he mentioned are all part of a cluster of symptoms of bad posture. The preferred athletic cobra posture is easier on the body. It's also how you get the hips to set up the natural flow of torque and balance - practice it in Swivel Stairs too (I carried a bag up and down stairs at one point).

I think a lot of people have trouble with it in part because it feels so low effort that they think it's wrong at first. Once you see the results in your swings and feel the difference in your body the next day you wise up fast lol.

 

[TonLocVT]

I took a stab at the kick the ball drill, checking here before I commit more time to it. I can't imagine I'm doing it right because it feels too… umm… easy? I feel like I'm hopping at the end for the first couple kicks, which I can't imagine is correct. The rest look relatively correct, but still feels too…hoppy?

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah, hoping we can trigger something with some of that soccer memory here. Keep staying loose and moving easy like that.

You do want to feel something like a drift and drop off the rear leg. It's kinda like a hop but low effort/not shoving. Should feel like the rear leg loading into the ground a bit like a spring then your body swings in and kicks the ball.

In every seabas drill I've done, the setup is just as important as the move itself. Every one of his drills is doing the move in a way that is internally consistent with the other moves & is basically an isolated part of the swing.

In yours, notice that he's actually setting up more like a staggered standstill before he winds up the kick. He also lets the upper body follow the kicking leg intot he backswing and keeping it closed all the way through the kick. You're leaving your shoulder open. That would be a shank/"wtf Richard" if you threw like that. You also get your butt way over the ball - don't. You want actually to get even more of your mass coiled back and leading the leg into the kick. I found this crazy hard at first with zero soccer background - might be a little easier to get for you.

So change it in the setup and windup but keep moving free & loose like you would for soccer.

 

[TonLocVT]

Yeah, hoping we can trigger something with some of that soccer memory here. Keep staying loose and moving easy like that.

You do want to feel something like a drift and drop off the rear leg. It's kinda like a hop but low effort/not shoving. Should feel like the rear leg loading into the ground a bit like a spring then your body swings in and kicks the ball.

In every seabas drill I've done, the setup is just as important as the move itself. Every one of his drills is doing the move in a way that is internally consistent with the other moves & is basically an isolated part of the swing.

In yours, notice that he's actually setting up more like a staggered standstill before he winds up the kick. He also lets the upper body follow the kicking leg intot he backswing and keeping it closed all the way through the kick. You're leaving your shoulder open. That would be a shank/"wtf Richard" if you threw like that. You also get your butt way over the ball - don't. You want actually to get even more of your mass coiled back and leading the leg into the kick. I found this crazy hard at first with zero soccer background - might be a little easier to get for you.

So change it in the setup and windup but keep moving free & loose like you would for soccer.

That's reasonable. How does this look? I could probably kick my leg higher, but I'm not sure that's the point of this drill.

 

[TonLocVT]

My calves and glutes are pretty sore today, so spent my time this morning analyzing technique.

Side strides - I worked on doing them with my pelvis tilted up, sternum pulled into my abs, and core tight. Felt a lot more powerful. It's clear I get real hunchy, though. Calvin Heimburg is often seen reminding himself to pull his shoulders back prior to throwing, maybe doing this could resolve the hunch issue?

Hershyzer - did hershyer 1 and 2 to warm up.

Hershyzer and Kick the Can - this is where I gets interesting. I was confused yesterday about how to build KtC into the Hershyzer throw. But it feels pretty natural to incorporate? If I'm doing it right (big if), it helps maintain balance while also pulling the hips around. I don't think I'm doing it correctly, because I was doing some form of this last August, although I guess that looks to be more of a timid reach out of my front foot, rather than an explosive kick.

Full throw - and, for funsies, I decided to throw everything together into a way too early full throw. I noticed myself reminding myself to be loose, as this helps most with maintaining the side bend. I find the timing to fall out of sorts when I get stiff.

Side question: I'm wondering if it's valuable to raise my knee up in the Hershyzer like a pitching throw. I don't see to many pros raising their leg up that high, so I'm wondering if that's where the disc golf swing starts to deviate.

August throw:https://www.reddit.com/r/discgolf/c..._app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1

Side strides cobra posture:

Hershyzer warm up:


KtC integrating into Hershyzer:


Integration but with windup and release (standstill throw):


Full throw for fun:

 

[Brychanus]

Let's keep fixing your posture moving athletic & relaxed. Same issue in each drill and throw (funny how that is always the case for everyone!)

You are always extending off the drive leg. Notice how Eagle has his front knee & hip closed away from target with his shoulder sloped aggressively like swinging a battering ram. You're pitching/tipping away and opening the front hip early with the shoulder in a weaker posture. Should overal feel much more like your mAss is leading you toward the target like Eagle into the "shift from behind." Back that mAss up!

Relatedly, you want to get "unstuck":

As a a consequence of the posture you are shoving off the rear leg, leaving it behind and landing off balance. Your Rear knee is still turned away as your weight shifts as a result, whereas Eagle has dropped nice and relaxed into the plant. It feels WAY more like a drop or rolling down a ramp than a push/shove/lunge off the rear leg. There should be much more acceleration between the drive leg and plant than what happens before it. I've found it helpful to actually exaggerate slowing down as much as possible in the strides, then find the way to accelerate by dropping as fast as possble into the plant.

Slow down to like 80% that speed with your run until you get it. Usually people doing this at full speed **** themselves up because they find ways to land and swing, but they're off balance and putting too much effort through the rear leg and putting joints at risk. Been there, done that.

 

[TonLocVT]

Let's keep fixing your posture moving athletic & relaxed. Same issue in each drill and throw (funny how that is always the case for everyone!)

You are always extending off the drive leg. Notice how Eagle has his front knee & hip closed away from target with his shoulder sloped aggressively like swinging a battering ram. You're pitching/tipping away and opening the front hip early with the shoulder in a weaker posture. Should overal feel much more like your mAss is leading you toward the target like Eagle into the "shift from behind." Back that mAss up!

Relatedly, you want to get "unstuck":

As a a consequence of the posture you are shoving off the rear leg, leaving it behind and landing off balance. Your Rear knee is still turned away as your weight shifts as a result, whereas Eagle has dropped nice and relaxed into the plant. It feels WAY more like a drop or rolling down a ramp than a push/shove/lunge off the rear leg. There should be much more acceleration between the drive leg and plant than what happens before it. I've found it helpful to actually exaggerate slowing down as much as possible in the strides, then find the way to accelerate by dropping as fast as possble into the plant.

Slow down to like 80% that speed with your run until you get it. Usually people doing this at full speed **** themselves up because they find ways to land and swing, but they're off balance and putting too much effort through the rear leg and putting joints at risk. Been there, done that.

Soooo a few things I've learned:

1) this is incredibly hard
2) I think this is the inherent issue with my form
3) I think you guys have been telling me this for months, but it's finally clicking with me. (Learning is different from knowing)

If I have the feeling down, then it feels like 2 things I wasn't doing prior.
1) it feels more like a pole vault over the rear leg than a kick off. I coincidentally blame Paul U. since his book calls the rear leg the "power leg". But honestly it probably just feels more natural to do it incorrectly than correctly.
2) it feels like you should smash your shoulder forward and almost downward in the Hershyzer, which also feels counterintuitive, because why would you throw a disc down and not up?


Posting footage for feedback, aka does this look closer or nah?

 

[sidewinder22]

You are tipping over into the plant instead of tilting back into the plant. Also over-striding off the rear leg.

When the front leg swings forward, your spine should counter tilt/swing back to it.

 

[TonLocVT]

You are tipping over into the plant instead of tilting back into the plant. Also over-striding off the rear leg.

When the front leg swings forward, your spine should counter tilt/swing back to it.

So is this the posture and shoulder tilt?

 

[sidewinder22]

I don't think Hershyzer is the drill for you right now. You are putting yourself into weird positions.

Stand upright yet relaxed and kick sideways, or toss the club/hammer sideways. Your chin should lead your nose targetward as everything swings underneath the top of your head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D4_tDZjX1w#t=7m45s

 

[TonLocVT]

I don't think Hershyzer is the drill for you right now. You are putting yourself into weird positions.

Stand upright yet relaxed and kick sideways, or toss the club/hammer sideways. Your chin should lead your nose targetward as everything swings underneath the top of your head.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D4_tDZjX1w#t=7m45s

So I'm working on this now, with a significant exaggeration…. I look like a deer who was recently shot and drags its head off into the woods. I feel a much more free backswing, but my shoulder tilts upward, though? Is this a problem?

 

[TonLocVT]

So I'm working on this now, with a significant exaggeration…. I look like a deer who was recently shot and drags its head off into the woods. I feel a much more free backswing, but my shoulder tilts upward, though? Is this a problem?

Forgot the photos

 

[Brychanus]

I feel a much more free backswing, but my shoulder tilts upward, though? Is this a problem?

I can tell based on your "deer in the headlights" that you're fighting old habits hard. Slow swing drills are great at finding & overriding that too. Keep it up.

You do want the braced tilt, which is a matter of getting everything "stacked" well moving from leg to leg in the shift:

Couple images of me doing some things well and some things not so you can see differences in posture, tilt, tipping, and "stacking - look at posture of body with everything closed landing on the front leg. You want to be more like SW, Gibson, or Mcbeth in these imgs. Part of the reason I was so focused on the rear side in your case is that faults there can only make it harder, but that may be premature fo ryou so I like what SW has redirected you to. One leg drill throwing might be good for you for a bit here too (SW?)

 

[TonLocVT]

Ok! So this morning I did all my drills but working to maintain the head tilt. It's probably entertaining because I am really emphasizing the injured deer posture.

Pretty sure I'd be told that it looks really aggressive of a tilt and should be eased up a bit?

One improvement I'm seeing is my rear leg follow through. It's naturally coming around as it should. It feels like a reverse bowling swing.

Video 1 is my strides. Video 2 is the hershyer. Video 3 is the Hershyzer while loading the bow. Video 4 is a slow swing. Video 5 is a recklessly fun fast swing.

Side note: With the strides, I've been trying to incorporate both "can kicks" and it's starting to feel like galloping. This video is from after 20 minutes of doing it, so not getting the action as expected.

I'm finding tennis courts to be extremely helpful. I basically use the painted line and try to keep my front toes at this line. This helps develop the direction and momentum control from using the CoG (mAss).

I'm also interpreting this painted line as the wall for inside swing, door frame in DFD, pole in Load the Bow, etc. The best part is, on this double tennis court, the painted line disappears between the two courts. To test myself, I'd try to control direction between courts, then see where my foot lands on the line once I enter the boundary of the section court. This helps determine how good the trajectory control is during the stride.

 

[TonLocVT]

Upon review, it looks like I'm still tipping over the plant foot in Hershyzer and it becomes very emphasized from each point on. Will work on correcting this tomorrow.

 

[TonLocVT]

Took a stab at this on lunch break. My legs are pretty worn out, and it's pretty clear from the footage.

Some results:

 

[Brychanus]

Uh oh, eager beaver alert incoming:

1. Slow down. You are basically barreling full tilt into the plant with no acceleration gain after your drive step. When people move that fast they're usually hiding all kinds of balance issues from themselves by speeding up.

2. Learn to take breaks. Sore/tired legs are an enemy of good form. I know this is good advice and have been hurt twice ignoring it. Don't be like me.

3. Since I just got done doing a huge workup on her form and it's kind of burned into my memory, I think it'd be good for you to watch Tattar here. She doesn't run, and notice how much of the acceleration happens super late in the swing. Sometimes people confuse this as "explosive" but I tend to think of it as good mastery of the swing tempo & accumulating acceleration (SW would probably agree). Yes, it's an athletic move, but you want to master that tempo and harness the acceleration off the drive leg like rolling down a half pipe (white curve in img below). The acceleration should build as the body gets leverage into the drive leg and then spike quickly after the drop into the plant as effortlessly and in as much control as possible. It shouldn't matter if you're long like you and moving horizontal or stout like her and moving vertical.

Gurthie has astounding lagged & late acceleration:

4. Throw some actual discs, moving slower than you are there. Recommend some time on One Leg Drill and standstills so you can clean up that braced tilt and head balance.*

5. Head balance & its relationship to tilted axis is a huge swing "secret." Do not stop working on it now or soon. It's about optimizing the entire posture and swing axis. Any time I've seen someone bail on it too early they have to work on it again later.


*You know what, I'm going to get more opinionated to your benefit. There's enough jank in your x-step that I think you'll thank me & SW later. Spend weeks/months on your standstill. With your levers you'll potentially throw somewhere in the 400s from a standstill if you fix your mechanics. If you're only throwing 250' with putters (4-15-2023) from an x-step with your levers, believe your local T-Rex that already outthrows all his friends from a standstill - you have a lot to gain by following this advice. I throw putters 250' from a standstill with half the effort you're putting in there. SW doesn't feel like he's working hard when he does this.

IMO Adding more distance is more about harnessing what KT or Gurthie are doing above and adding momentum & bigger weight shifts. That's why I already find it easy to throw putters far from a standstill w/ low effort. Once you master that you can play with more momentum. I think there is meaningful work you can do on the x-step but don't let it sabotage the basics!

 

[Brychanus]

More support for my argument:
-SW estimates that a good x-step will get you 20-30%. I usually trust his >10 years' experience there. My inferior x-steps yield ~10% more distance. My "sweet spot" ones are closer to 20% even with a few defects. Put differently, you will get something like 80% of your peak distance from a standstill. So in a way, you can work on 80% of the problems there.

-Your fundamental way of moving needs to change because your body isn't used to generating power in the most effortless, highest power way. Adding more strides usually makes that harder.

-One forum member opined that the Door Frame Drill was "the entire backhand." I don't fullyagree if you mean it literally, but it's pretty god**** close. The better my DFD got, the better my standstill got. Of course I had to move around and work on other stuff too, including several of the things you're doing. IMO building up to that fundamental drop against the door frame idea is very important...

-And the better my standstill gets, the better my x-step gets. It rarely seems to work in the opposite direction because of the additional variables.

-The only thing in my recollection that got better about my standstill from my x-step was working on swivel stairs and the sideways run and elephant walk - training the body rhythm and getting flow etc. And of course all that ongoing standstill work was probably making it easier for those ideas to improve my swing too.

-There are some people on these forums who throw pretty far in an x-step but appear not to work often on standstills. In recent memory, 100% of them still have posture issues that probably would be easier to work on in standstills.

So to be clear, I'm not saying I want to take your x-step away from you entirely. I just want to make it far less frustrating to develop by simplifying the problem.