Paige Pierce loses huge opportunity

[oddjob]

1.7 Suspension of Play A.If, in the opinion of the Tournament Director, lightning, excessive rain or hazardous conditions exist that make it impractical or dangerous to continue play, the tournament shall be suspended. The signal to suspend play shall be made in the same fashion as the signal to start, but using three short blasts. These blasts should be repeated at least once within a minute time-frame and the Tournament Director should make any necessary efforts to ensure all groups could hear the signal.

1.5 Practice Rounds and Beginning Play (2) Staggered Starts or Tee Times (rounds where groups start one after another on a certain hole): The player shall start at the time announced by the Tournament Director. Players may practice until their group prepares to tee off provided their practice does not distract players on the course. If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown by then, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. This procedure continues on any subsequent tee offs for which a player is absent. No holes shall be replayed. If a complete round is missed, or if a player does not finish a round, the player may, at the discretion of the Tournament Director, be disqualified.

 

[jvphobic]

Paige talks extensively about the happenings of that day and her thought process on last night's podcast. You can go directly to about the 46 minute mark and we get almost right into it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_anxK98fISk

 

[TimSyl]

not starting on time is nothing new...we call that "disc time"... ie, 10 means 10:15.

 

[hook_nuts]

So the TD could've delayed. Maybe that's where the blame should go for Hokom losing on technicalities and not performance. They knew the situation and sent someone to pick her up. To support the integrity and sportsmanship of the game it should've been delayed until Hokom arrived.

 

[sjberry2017]

Dumb opinions? :doh: How is having the opinion that, in a competitive sport, the rules are the rules and should be followed appropriately in any situation is a dumb opinion? If I'm interpreting Terry's statement @ the 59th minute correctly, that is.

 

[JC17393]

not starting on time is nothing new...we call that "disc time"... ie, 10 means 10:15.

True, but generally speaking, "disc time" affects when the players meeting starts or when the scoreport is put out and players are sent to their holes. I'm sure every tournament player around has countless stories of sitting around near the parking lot or the pavilion waiting for the 9:45 players meeting until 10:15.

It doesn't mean that after the players meeting has happened, the players have gotten their hole assignments, and have been sent out to their holes, that then things suddenly run behind by 15-20 minutes. I think that's the part that folks are objecting to as being outside of the normal procedure and incorrectly handled by the staff on site.

From the Competition Manual:

1.5 Practice Rounds and Beginning Play
B. Two types of starts will be used to begin competitive play:
(1) Shotgun Starts (rounds where several groups start simultaneously): At a scheduled time, scorecard(s) shall be distributed to the players at Tournament Central. After the cards have been distributed, groups shall be given adequate time to reach their assigned teeing areas...​

The key phrase is "given adequate time" to reach their holes. If every group is at their tee waiting for the start signal, safe to say adequate time had been given. Further delay after that, particularly if the reason for the delay is in favor of a single competitor in what can only be viewed as an effort to avoid assessing her penalties, is unfair to the other competitors on the course whether they agree with the delay or not.

 

[jvphobic]

SJ, I don't know if I am getting you correctly. What do you think that Terry meant?

 

[hook_nuts]

True, but generally speaking, "disc time" affects when the players meeting starts or when the scoreport is put out and players are sent to their holes. I'm sure every tournament player around has countless stories of sitting around near the parking lot or the pavilion waiting for the 9:45 players meeting until 10:15.

It doesn't mean that after the players meeting has happened, the players have gotten their hole assignments, and have been sent out to their holes, that then things suddenly run behind by 15-20 minutes. I think that's the part that folks are objecting to as being outside of the normal procedure and incorrectly handled by the staff on site.

From the Competition Manual:

1.5 Practice Rounds and Beginning Play
B. Two types of starts will be used to begin competitive play:
(1) Shotgun Starts (rounds where several groups start simultaneously): At a scheduled time, scorecard(s) shall be distributed to the players at Tournament Central. After the cards have been distributed, groups shall be given adequate time to reach their assigned teeing areas...​

The key phrase is "given adequate time" to reach their holes. If every group is at their tee waiting for the start signal, safe to say adequate time had been given. Further delay after that, particularly if the reason for the delay is in favor of a single competitor in what can only be viewed as an effort to avoid assessing her penalties, is unfair to the other competitors on the course whether they agree with the delay or not.

What happened to Hokom wasn't fair. I wouldn't care if they made the effort to avoid penalizing her, and none of that is in the rules books that it's not allowed. A lot of people are crying the rules should be followed, but that doesn't mean you can fill in the blanks or essentially make up or add to the rules like you did in this post. It is the Td's discretion and to me a longer delay in this case would've upheld the integrity of the game. The +4 rule is there to hold players responsible and create a fair environment for everyone (including Hokom), not to cause people to lose tournaments. In this extraordinary case, imo, delaying the start would've been 100% justified.

 

[The Hammer]

What happened to Hokom wasn't fair. I wouldn't care if they made the effort to avoid penalizing her, and none of that is in the rules books that it's not allowed. A lot of people are crying the rules should be followed, but that doesn't mean you can fill in the blanks or essentially make up or add to the rules like you did in this post. It is the Td's discretion and to me a longer delay in this case would've upheld the integrity of the game. The +4 rule is there to hold players responsible and create a fair environment for everyone (including Hokom), not to cause people to lose tournaments. In this extraordinary case, imo, delaying the start would've been 100% justified.

Absolutely it was fair. She wasn't there at the start time, and should take the penalties that are prescribed in the rule book. The reason for being tardy is irrelevant. This bleeding heart mentality is ridiculous, and unrealistic to expect of TD's.

 

[heartman]

What happened to Hokom wasn't fair.

Fair's a place you go to ride rides and eat cotton candy.

 

[JC17393]

What happened to Hokom wasn't fair. I wouldn't care if they made the effort to avoid penalizing her, and none of that is in the rules books that it's not allowed. A lot of people are crying the rules should be followed, but that doesn't mean you can fill in the blanks or essentially make up or add to the rules like you did in this post. It is the Td's discretion and to me a longer delay in this case would've upheld the integrity of the game. The +4 rule is there to hold players responsible and create a fair environment for everyone (including Hokom), not to cause people to lose tournaments. In this extraordinary case, imo, delaying the start would've been 100% justified.

To be clear, had the accident happened to someone on the sixth or seventh card, someone who was 40+ throws behind Sarah at the start of the round, would you be making the same argument for delaying the start of the round? If so, fair enough. If not, how is the favoritism toward the tournament leader in any way fair to the rest of the field?

And where exactly did I "make up or add" a rule? I quoted directly from the competition manual. The manual states that players be given "adequate time" to reach their holes. If everyone else is at their holes ready to go, how is that not already adequate time given and further delays just for the benefit of one player not outside if not the letter of the rule, certainly the spirit of the rule.

 

[joshmo65]

What happened to Hokom wasn't fair.

Was it fair to the women on the other side of the course that had no idea what was going on? The ones that finished preparing for the start of their round on time and when they did not hear a horn, assumed they had missed it as they were on the complete other side of the course, so they teed off at 1:35. They then played the entirety of the long par 5 with birdies and pars when they heard the 2 minute horn at 1:43. Is it fair to them that they were then required to walk all the way back through the hole they just played, and played well, to go back and play it again because the president of the PDGA delayed the start for 1 women who was late?

 

[sjberry2017]

SJ, I don't know if I am getting you correctly. What do you think that Terry meant?

I interpreted his comment as it being dumb to have the opinion that play should have started as normal, despite the circumstances surrounding why Sarah was late; maybe he was referring to those that have an opinion that the rule shouldn't be amended?

 

[hook_nuts]

The key phrase is "given adequate time" to reach their holes. If every group is at their tee waiting for the start signal, safe to say adequate time had been given. Further delay after that, particularly if the reason for the delay is in favor of a single competitor in what can only be viewed as an effort to avoid assessing her penalties, is unfair to the other competitors on the course whether they agree with the delay or not.

This is all made up and not in the rules.

If any other play (regardless of standing, card) had the same situation and they knew 1 hour and 45 mins before the tournament that there would be a 25-30 min delay then I would say delaying it would be completely fair. Pierce said atleast 1 person on each card knew about the incident well ahead of time.

If groups did throw before the start then that's either their fault or the directors didn't communicate clearly which wouldn't be fair to them.

The directors should've taken control of the situation and clearly communicated that there would be a 30 min delay. That would've been fair to everyone and maintained the integrity of the rules and sport.

 

[Broken Shoulder]

Absolutely it was fair. She wasn't there at the start time, and should take the penalties that are prescribed in the rule book. The reason for being tardy is irrelevant.QUOTE]

Precisely.

 

[Dan Ensor]

True, but generally speaking, "disc time" affects when the players meeting starts or when the scoreport is put out and players are sent to their holes. I'm sure every tournament player around has countless stories of sitting around near the parking lot or the pavilion waiting for the 9:45 players meeting until 10:15.

It doesn't mean that after the players meeting has happened, the players have gotten their hole assignments, and have been sent out to their holes, that then things suddenly run behind by 15-20 minutes. I think that's the part that folks are objecting to as being outside of the normal procedure and incorrectly handled by the staff on site.

From the Competition Manual:

1.5 Practice Rounds and Beginning Play
B. Two types of starts will be used to begin competitive play:
(1) Shotgun Starts (rounds where several groups start simultaneously): At a scheduled time, scorecard(s) shall be distributed to the players at Tournament Central. After the cards have been distributed, groups shall be given adequate time to reach their assigned teeing areas...​

The key phrase is "given adequate time" to reach their holes. If every group is at their tee waiting for the start signal, safe to say adequate time had been given. Further delay after that, particularly if the reason for the delay is in favor of a single competitor in what can only be viewed as an effort to avoid assessing her penalties, is unfair to the other competitors on the course whether they agree with the delay or not.

1.7 Suspension of Play A.If, in the opinion of the Tournament Director, lightning, excessive rain or hazardous conditions exist that make it impractical or dangerous to continue play, the tournament shall be suspended. The signal to suspend play shall be made in the same fashion as the signal to start, but using three short blasts. These blasts should be repeated at least once within a minute time-frame and the Tournament Director should make any necessary efforts to ensure all groups could hear the signal.

1.5 Practice Rounds and Beginning Play (2) Staggered Starts or Tee Times (rounds where groups start one after another on a certain hole): The player shall start at the time announced by the Tournament Director. Players may practice until their group prepares to tee off provided their practice does not distract players on the course. If a player is not present to throw when it is his or her turn, the scorekeeper shall allow 30 seconds. If the player has not thrown by then, a score of par plus four is to be entered for that hole. This procedure continues on any subsequent tee offs for which a player is absent. No holes shall be replayed. If a complete round is missed, or if a player does not finish a round, the player may, at the discretion of the Tournament Director, be disqualified.

IMO, it wasn't a staggered start, and players were given adequate time to reach their holes (doesn't say "no more than adequate).


I don't think the rules say you should delay. I don't know if that was fair to do. But I do think the rules allow for it. So I don't agree with the vitriol.

 

[JC17393]

This is all made up and not in the rules.

If any other play (regardless of standing, card) had the same situation and they knew 1 hour and 45 mins before the tournament that there would be a 25-30 min delay then I would say delaying it would be completely fair. Pierce said atleast 1 person on each card knew about the incident well ahead of time.

If groups did throw before the start then that's either their fault or the directors didn't communicate clearly which wouldn't be fair to them.

The directors should've taken control of the situation and clearly communicated that there would be a 30 min delay. That would've been fair to everyone and maintained the integrity of the rules and sport.

If they knew that soon before the round (and I'm not arguing that they didn't), I don't think there'd have been much issue with delaying the round by 30 minutes at all. Let everyone know things were backed up and have everyone hang tight at tournament central/the parking lot. That sort of thing has happened at plenty of events with no one blinking an eye and any excuse could have been made other than "we're waiting for Sarah" if that wasn't good enough for folks (e.g. the scoreport is late arriving, we're expecting a weather issue, we can't find our airhorn, whatever).

My issue (and I'd say others feel the same) is that they sent everyone out to their holes pretty much on time and then delayed the start with the "we're going to talk to each group" routine. THAT is where I think they went wrong and there's an appearance of impropriety and rule bending favoritism. It's wishy-washy at best since they committed to starting the round on time by sending everyone out on the course, and then got all concerned about not wanting to penalize Sarah for being in an accident and dragged their feet issuing the start signal.

If you're going to delay the start, do it before scorecards are distributed and players are sent out to their holes. Once you've done that, you give the rule proscribed "adequate time" for players to reach their starting holes and you start the round without any further delay. If players are late, for whatever reason, they're penalized.

 

[jvphobic]

I interpreted his comment as it being dumb to have the opinion that play should have started as normal, despite the circumstances surrounding why Sarah was late; maybe he was referring to those that have an opinion that the rule shouldn't be amended?

I can't speak for him directly. But, I don't think that was his intent. Terry actually agreed with me that under the circumstances, they SHOULD have started the round on time. Whats done is done now. And I am personally glad that they delayed it as long as they did. But, I felt it should have started on time.

 

[sjberry2017]

I can't speak for him directly. But, I don't think that was his intent. Terry actually agreed with me that under the circumstances, they SHOULD have started the round on time. Whats done is done now. And I am personally glad that they delayed it as long as they did. But, I felt it should have started on time.

Actually, if he agreed that under the circumstances, the round should have been started on time, then I have no beef with him, because I thought that was the opinion he was saying was dumb. I didn't think that him saying that that opinion was dumb made much sense lol

 

[ljerome]

On another note, it seems to me that +4 is an awfully severe penalty for Pro players. I would not have argued if the tournament directors stepped in and decided that due to the circumstances, the penalty would be +2 on each hole. I am sure that is too simple for most folks and "you can't just change the rules" whenever you want. OK. How about they look at the rule now and change it to +3 or +2 for pro level? +4 just seems like a lot to me.