PDGA Division Changes for 2023 Announced

[biscoe]

I don't think that has anything to do with it. Hasn't the M in the MA and MP divisions always stood for mixed?

Possibly not always but has for several years. Thank God they are finally killing the nonsensical division names- long overdue.

 

[jenb]

I hope this is not a dumb question but I have to ask. Why would a registered professional want to play in an amateur division in the first place?

I've also known some pro women who have done well (cashed anyway) in FPO at supertour events choose to play men's (oops I mean mixed) intermediate at lower tier events rather than cakewalk by themselves in FPO.

 

[Three Putt]

I hope this is not a dumb question but I have to ask. Why would a registered professional want to play in an amateur division in the first place?

Once upon a time, that was the rule.

It gave rise to a phrase, "Move up, move up, move out". Which applied to players who went pro prematurely, but were never really that good and plateaued at the bottom of the pro ranks. So they were left with a choice -- keep finishing at the bottom and never win anything....or quit. They'd quit.

The words "pro" and "am" are overblown. McBeth is a pro. The 960-rated local who occasionally plays hot enough to win his entry fee back, isn't. So for the same reason we allow amateurs who play an event above their rating to later play their correct division, we allow players who've cashed in pro to play am in subsequent events. With restrictions -- we don't allow top-rated pros to dive back into am, and we don't allow any pros to compete in Am Worlds.

David is all over this.

All I will add is that as the sport grows, the target moves. I have a friend who has PDGA Open wins; he took out some C-Tiers on some short wooded courses back in the 90's. He's max throw is under 300' and since ratings have been a thing he's never been above 920. He usually hovers around 900. Right about the time ratings showed up he finally realized he had no business playing Open, BUT...he was a registered Open professional disc golfer, has wins and has accepted cash money prizes. What are you going to do, run him off because he played waaayyy over his head a few times?

The guy who used to be the "big dog" locally is getting that same reality check now; with about twice an many players now there are a lot of better players, and the only way he's going to win Open locally now is one of those magic "played over my head" events. He's been playing MPO with a MA2 rating because our scene is so small. You gotta give those guys options.

 

[DavidSauls]

I've also known some pro women who have done well (cashed anyway) in FPO at supertour events choose to play men's (oops I mean mixed) intermediate at lower tier events rather than cakewalk by themselves in FPO.

Something similar is true of some older male pros. Nobody else signs up in MP60, so their choice is to play a younger pro division, where they can't compete, or play in an amateur division where their rating permits. Or stay home.

 

[Dcinmd]

They may have changed the names of the amateur division but they didn't fix the maximum rating for the divisions.

Currently

MA1 935 up
MA2 900 to 935
MA3 850 to 900
MA4 0 to 850

The way the divisions are currently configure push ams down the lower divisions. A configurations more like this would work at spreading the ams out and not have and entire field of MA3 and MA4.

MA1 900 up
MA2 800 to 900
MA3 700 to 800
MA4 sub 700

It makes zero sense to me why MA2 is limited to 35 point range. Also as currently configured some players will never make it above the 850 rating to move out of MA4.

 

[jenb]

They may have changed the names of the amateur division but they didn't fix the maximum rating for the divisions.

Currently

MA1 935 up
MA2 900 to 935
MA3 850 to 900
MA4 0 to 850

The way the divisions are currently configure push ams down the lower divisions. A configurations more like this would work at spreading the ams out and not have and entire field of MA3 and MA4.

MA1 900 up
MA2 800 to 900
MA3 700 to 800
MA4 sub 700

It makes zero sense to me why MA2 is limited to 35 point range. Also as currently configured some players will never make it above the 850 rating to move out of MA4.

The intermediate division upper and lower ratings limits were set based on a statistical average and upper and lower statistical means of men's ratings. So the number of men rated 900-935 should be about equal to the number rated 850-800, or something like that.

 

[txmxer]

The intermediate division upper and lower ratings limits were set based on a statistical average and upper and lower statistical means of men's ratings. So the number of men rated 900-935 should be about equal to the number rated 850-800, or something like that.

I suppose that is logical from a tournament stand point of how many opening exist for each division.

But, I generically agree with DC that the gaps don't feel right.

 

[davetherocketguy]

The intermediate division upper and lower ratings limits were set based on a statistical average and upper and lower statistical means of PLAYER ratings. So the number of players rated 900-935 should be about equal to the number rated 850-800, or something like that.

FTFY

Thanks for proving my earlier point.

 

[DavidSauls]

No matter where you draw the lines, someone will be saying that they should be drawn somewhere else.

I also suspect that the number of players in different divisions varies wildly from place to place. Local experience may not be a good indication of how unbalanced the player distribution is.

 

[jenb]

FTFY

Thanks for proving my earlier point.

I do think it was just the male players though. Not sure.

 

[krupicka]

MA1 900 up
MA2 800 to 900
MA3 700 to 800
MA4 sub 700

Ratings this wide won't work. The reason for smaller rating point spreads is so that players can be competitive in the division. In a division with a 900 rating cap, an 850 rated player has a decent chance at being above the prize line and might have a chance at a win. A 801 player? very unlikely they'd have a chance at either.

 

[Cgkdisc]

? The MA40 ratings cap is 920. Does that only apply to players that are registered as pro? A 45 yr old Am rated 950 can play ma40?

Under the new guidelines as an MP70 pro next year, currently with a 921 rating, I won't be able to play in any age-based master amateur divisions even with 39+ year olds now that the rating threshold has been reduced to having a rating under 920 for master aged pros to enter any master aged mixed amateur division.

I'll still be able to enter MA2 which I do regularly for leagues with no am or pro Master divisions, but I at least had been able to enter MA40 in events the past several years when the threshold had been a rating under 935, the same as the MA2 threshold. Good job PDGA, providing additional ratings protection for young master ams from those "predatory geezer pros" giving up more than 10-20 years in age. However, we're still not rating capping those "predatory master ams" with ratings over the new thresholds who haven't moved up to pro. Of course, for many in this category it makes sense to remain am so they have more division choices when there aren't enough older players competing in their area to make a division.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

No matter where you draw the lines, someone will be saying that they should be drawn somewhere else.

This.

I also suspect that the number of players in different divisions varies wildly from place to place. Local experience may not be a good indication of how unbalanced the player distribution is.

MA4/FA4 has not been offered in the New England area in the past 15 years. Only in the past few years has FA3 been offered.

MY TD brain has always thought that 3 levels of Amateur were plenty.
And the "nicknames" were always off IMO
MA1 Advanced
MA2 Intermediate(definition of the word Intermediate: coming between two things in time, place, order, character, etc.)
MA3 SHOULD BE Novice.

 

[DavidSauls]

This.




MA4/FA4 has not been offered in the New England area in the past 15 years. Only in the past few years has FA3 been offered.

MY TD brain has always thought that 3 levels of Amateur were plenty.
And the "nicknames" were always off IMO
MA1 Advanced
MA2 Intermediate(definition of the word Intermediate: coming between two things in time, place, order, character, etc.)
MA3 SHOULD BE Novice.

"Novice", like "Recreational", carries the wrong implication.

I've been playing for 27 years and have a novice rating. I'm hardly a novice....just an old guy in decline. If I'm going to play in a division against players of similar poor skills, MA4 is my place.

More importantly, the divisions don't need nicknames. I was glad when the PDGA abandoned Masters, Grandmasters, Legends, etc. a few years back; now they've completed the change to simple, numbered tiers and age brackets indicated by actual ages. I applaud.

 

[davetherocketguy]

I'll also add there are just WAY too many divisions.

If I offer MA40 then people whine, "why aren't you doing MA50?"

If I offer FA1 then it's, "Oh but you need to offer FA3 too. FA1 is too intimidating."

Usually my response was something like, "Fill the division I'm offering first then we'll talk," or "If I don't have at least ___ number of players for the division by (deadline) then there will not be trophies for that division." Still doesn't discourage people. This stupid number of divisions just breeds a participation trophy mentality.

 

[DavidSauls]

You don't have to offer all of the divisions. It gives a TD great flexibility.

You can run a tournament for just those over 40. Or a ratings-based event, with no age-protected divisions. You can offer just MA1 and MA3, for all practical purposes creating 100-point ratings groups (over 900 and under 900). Or just MA40 and MA55, if you think the age brackets should be expanded.

And for those who complain, you just refer them to other events that might suit them better.

 

[ru4por]

I'll also add there are just WAY too many divisions.

If I offer MA40 then people whine, "why aren't you doing MA50?"

If I offer FA1 then it's, "Oh but you need to offer FA3 too. FA1 is too intimidating."

Usually my response was something like, "Fill the division I'm offering first then we'll talk," or "If I don't have at least ___ number of players for the division by (deadline) then there will not be trophies for that division." Still doesn't discourage people. This stupid number of divisions just breeds a participation trophy mentality.

We approach requests for additional divisions a bit differently. We gladly open up any division, anytime we are asked. It builds a positive relationship with the player base, provides opportunity for others, of the new division, to see and sign up and it bolsters the reputation of the club in the disc golf community. If the division does not fill, the players have the choice of changing divisions or getting on the waitlist, if division is in a capped pool. FAR more positive interactions have occurred, with this process, than negative.

 

[nothinbuttree]

David is all over this.

All I will add is that as the sport grows, the target moves. I have a friend who has PDGA Open wins; he took out some C-Tiers on some short wooded courses back in the 90's. He's max throw is under 300' and since ratings have been a thing he's never been above 920. He usually hovers around 900. Right about the time ratings showed up he finally realized he had no business playing Open, BUT...he was a registered Open professional disc golfer, has wins and has accepted cash money prizes. What are you going to do, run him off because he played waaayyy over his head a few times?

The guy who used to be the "big dog" locally is getting that same reality check now; with about twice an many players now there are a lot of better players, and the only way he's going to win Open locally now is one of those magic "played over my head" events. He's been playing MPO with a MA2 rating because our scene is so small. You gotta give those guys options.

So... Honest question here... Are players not allowed to move down from pro or other divisions if their skills decline? I guess I thought everything was ratings based. If not, are there 850 rated pros still out there because they can't go back to am status?

 

[ToddL]

According to the chart in the OP, they just changed it to "Mixed Amateur." And I'm wondering if that's a move trying to head off legal issues arising in the wake of upcoming rule changes regarding eligibility to play women's divisions.

All significant changes to class names and division names/codes:
2007 and before the Classes were Pro Men, Pro Women, Amateur Men, Amateur Women (MP, FP, MA, FW)
2008 they changed to Pro, Pro Women, Amateur, Amateur Women (MP, FP, MA, FW)
2012 they changed to Pro, Pro Women, Amateur, Amateur Women (MP, FP, MA, FA)
2018 they changed to Pro Mixed, Pro Women-Only, Amateur Mixed, Amateur Women-Only (MP, FP, MA, FA)
2023 they change to Mixed Pro, Women-Only Pro, Mixed Amateur, Women-Only Amateur (MP, FP, MA, FA)

2018 also changed the "Masters (MPM, MM1)" "Grandmasters (MPG, MG1)" etc to age brackets "Master 40+ (MP40, MA40)" "Master 50+ (MP50, MA50)" etc

 

[Cgkdisc]

So... Honest question here... Are players not allowed to move down from pro or other divisions if their skills decline? I guess I thought everything was ratings based. If not, are there 850 rated pros still out there because they can't go back to am status?

They can apply to PDGA to return to Am status if they haven't cashed in a year or two.