PDGA NT: 2019 Dynamic Discs Glass Blown Open 24-Apr to 27-Apr-2019

[Cgkdisc]

The rules experts on here should know by now that any rule that requires a timing or observation call by the competitors will not be called consistently unless the delineation of Good/Bad is visually obvious in real time AND violation is seen to be egregious enough to warrant a 1-throw penalty.

How many of you set your cruise control at some point over the speed limit you feel is "safe enough" to not be pulled over? Other drivers usually have no problem with you going 5mph over even though it's a violation. In fact, many want you to go even faster over the limit say in Chicago to not slow up traffic flow. You don't make a citizen's arrest and turn yourself in for going over the speed limit. Cops typically don't ticket or even warn for 5mph over except maybe in one traffic light towns and school zones.

We all know technically speeding is a violation but generally agree as a society there's wiggle room. Going even 10mph over a 60mph limit is much like stepping on or beside your mini during a throw. You and the thrower probably see it's a foot fault but it's not enough to deserve a "ticket." Players intuitively understand this. The challenge for rule makers is to figure out how to write a rule that works under this wiggle room idea and meshes with those who want a black & white call.

 

[dorseymatt]

You put flexibility in quotes like it was in the rules or something. It's not. Or, did you put it in quotes because what you really meant was not flexibility at all, but you wanted to use that word anyway?

"Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred."

That leaves no flexibility. If you know it happened, call it. If it didn't happen or you're not sure, don't. There is no option to take the chicken's way out and avoid calling something which you know was clearly a violation. Or, on the other side, to call something when it didn't clearly happen.

I think that wording actually does leave flexibility. If there was no flexibility, it would read "Players must call a violation when one has clearly occurred."

 

[SD86]

The rules experts on here should know by now that any rule that requires a timing or observation call by the competitors will not be called consistently unless the delineation of Good/Bad is visually obvious in real time AND violation is seen to be egregious enough to warrant a 1-throw penalty.

How many of you set your cruise control at some point over the speed limit you feel is "safe enough" to not be pulled over? Other drivers usually have no problem with you going 5mph over even though it's a violation. In fact, many want you to go even faster over the limit say in Chicago to not slow up traffic flow. You don't make a citizen's arrest and turn yourself in for going over the speed limit. Cops typically don't ticket or even warn for 5mph over except maybe in one traffic light towns and school zones.

We all know technically speeding is a violation but generally agree as a society there's wiggle room. Going even 10mph over a 60mph limit is much like stepping on or beside your mini during a throw. You and the thrower probably see it's a foot fault but it's not enough to deserve a "ticket." Players intuitively understand this. The challenge for rule makers is to figure out how to write a rule that works under this wiggle room idea and meshes with those who want a black & white call.

I understand what you're saying. People could argue good vs bad laws and good vs bad rules and uniform enforcement of them all day long, of course.

For me, the step putt is a bigger problem than the occasional foot fault on field throws. No one will call even obvious step putt violations out of fear they're wrong or rocking the boat, etc., and currently TV/video is not allowed as a confirmation tool. I would completely outlaw the step putt as the solution, but other solutions are needed for foot fault and OB issues (and maybe fist pumps after great putts )

 

[XC_Eddy]

This forum should be renamed Disc Golf Rule Review. Every single pro tournament discussion turns into a rules discussion.

A few comments after getting to sit down and watch all of the MPO Post-Produced rounds:

-Good Live Coverage, but live in it's current form has a low ceiling. I appreciate that live exists, I get why people want it, but post-produced is so much more enjoyable to me. My wife delivered our first child a couple weeks ago, and we both have a nice amount of parental leave, so I've been at home. I pulled up the MPO rd1 live coverage. As far as live disc golf coverage goes, it was very good. Video quality was solid, and more importantly the camera angles were great and you could actually see where the disc was going. Nothing worse than waiting 5 minutes between shots and then not even being able to see where they went. Smashboxx still sets the bar for disc golf live coverage, that being said, live coverage in its resource restricted current form functions best as background noise. It's like Nascar: lasts three+ hours and you'll be bored to tears if you watch the entire event closely, but it's fun to check in on the highlights and the finish. Background noise while you do other stuff while too slow to be engaged actively for 3+ hours. You have to REALLY love disc golf to get into live coverage. I was not surprised when visiting family members made comments about how boring live coverage was.

-Great Post-Produced is far and away my favorite medium to consume disc golf coverage. Several times over the weekend it was my turn to hold the newborn for an hour or so. It was amazing to be able to just pull up the Jomez coverage on the TV on Youtube and let it go. No scrolling through the slow parts, just an hour of great shot by shot coverage. That stuff is comfort food for the eyes after trying to endure live coverage and everything the DGPT has produced this year. So refreshing to be able to watch the disc golf without all my mental energy being geared towards critiquing the production. And with MPO lead, MPO chase and FPO lead all being covered, you can watch 3 beautifully produced rounds in less than the amount of time it takes to watch MPO live. Great way to pass the middle of the night time when my newborn wouldn't sleep. If I'm going to be up from 3-4AM, at least I can watch a Jomez round while holding the baby. So good.

-Eagle still battles some inconsistency, and it cost him the tournament. His -8 in 30 mph gusts is so impressive. 1077 rating almost feels too low. I thought he was going to win going away after that performance. And then round 3 happened. What in the world? A 1011 rated even par round in good conditions after -8 in drastic wind was a huge letdown. Shockingly disappointing round. He looked better in the final round, but it shouldn't have even been close if Eagle threw even a decent by his standards round 3.

-Paul's hot streak continues, and he found a way to win. Congrats to Paul on a hard fought win. He's now winning enough that I've started to root against him again. The biggest difference in Paul's play right now is the overall consistency. How many times in the last 3 seasons have seen Paul have to make big comebacks from the chase card in the final round? Often. This season he isn't doing that. He's near the top the entire tournament playing consistently great golf. Putter looks great, too. Great to see top level Paul with a deeper field than 2015 top-form Paul played against.

-Great showing from Ricky. He was nailing some huge putts in that final round. Incredible to make a run at the wind in the final round. Some of the better play from Wysocki since the 2017 season. And he's seemingly found a new gear on his BH distance shots. Not sure if it's having access to Destroyers or having a form breakthrough in the prime of his career, but he's BOMBING.

-The wind was absolutely bonkers, and it made for some entertaining golf. There isn't a single golf course tournament that goes by without Streets and a few others leaving a comment about the event being a boring hyzer fest. I agree that disc golf is best played in the woods, however, this was not a boring tournament by any means. The wind and tight OB created a fascinating challenge. It looked frustrating as hell to play, but it was super fun to watch the top pros be challenged. Very rarely do we see circumstances during which par is a great round at a pro event. Furthermore, the close scores coming down the stretch made for entertaining golf. 2 stroke swings occurred on almost every hole. No lead was safe. Every hole was unpredictable. The Paul/Eagle/Ricky battle on the back 9 was some of the most entertaining disc golf ever filmed. It doesn't get better than that.

-Credit to DD for putting on another successful GBO out in Emporia. The gallery during the final round was excellent.

 

[jvphobic]

This forum should be renamed Disc Golf Rule Review. Every single pro tournament discussion turns into a rules discussion.

A few comments after getting to sit down and watch all of the MPO Post-Produced rounds:

-Good Live Coverage, but live in it's current form has a low ceiling. I appreciate that live exists, I get why people want it, but post-produced is so much more enjoyable to me. My wife delivered our first child a couple weeks ago, and we both have a nice amount of parental leave, so I've been at home. I pulled up the MPO rd1 live coverage. As far as live disc golf coverage goes, it was very good. Video quality was solid, and more importantly the camera angles were great and you could actually see where the disc was going. Nothing worse than waiting 5 minutes between shots and then not even being able to see where they went. Smashboxx still sets the bar for disc golf live coverage, that being said, live coverage in its resource restricted current form functions best as background noise. It's like Nascar: lasts three+ hours and you'll be bored to tears if you watch the entire event closely, but it's fun to check in on the highlights and the finish. Background noise while you do other stuff while too slow to be engaged actively for 3+ hours. You have to REALLY love disc golf to get into live coverage. I was not surprised when visiting family members made comments about how boring live coverage was.

-Great Post-Produced is far and away my favorite medium to consume disc golf coverage. Several times over the weekend it was my turn to hold the newborn for an hour or so. It was amazing to be able to just pull up the Jomez coverage on the TV on Youtube and let it go. No scrolling through the slow parts, just an hour of great shot by shot coverage. That stuff is comfort food for the eyes after trying to endure live coverage and everything the DGPT has produced this year. So refreshing to be able to watch the disc golf without all my mental energy being geared towards critiquing the production. And with MPO lead, MPO chase and FPO lead all being covered, you can watch 3 beautifully produced rounds in less than the amount of time it takes to watch MPO live. Great way to pass the middle of the night time when my newborn wouldn't sleep. If I'm going to be up from 3-4AM, at least I can watch a Jomez round while holding the baby. So good.

I can agree with some of your assessments on live vs post. I equate live DG to live baseball. It feels about the same pace of play. Sometimes slower sometimes faster, I read that the average game has around 140 pitches per team. So about 280 "throws", kinda like a 4some of DG. Each usually take just over 3 hours to play. But to me the best part about live is the community you watch it with. Watching sports a day later is always odd to me. When I watch post production, I get the feeling I am alone just consuming something with almost no excitement and announcers pretending they don't know what has happened. Just kinda saps the life from it for me. But the advantage of post is obvious. Timing & quality.

 

[SD86]

Watching sports a day later is always odd to me. When I watch post production, I get the feeling I am alone just consuming something with almost no excitement and announcers pretending they don't know what has happened. Just kinda saps the life from it for me. But the advantage of post is obvious. Timing & quality.

I like watching post produced rounds to watch the players' form and techniques, and what kinds of shots they make for the situation they're dealing with. This is one reason I prefer woods and semi-open courses more, and the wide open courses less. I also appreciate good commentary that gives good tips and advice which we can learn from.

 

[Lazerface]

It's a good idea as long as you have enough certified spotters available that you can deputize as Tournament Officials to cover each key spotter location 100% of the time for fairness. That 100% lack of reliability is what makes some TDs reluctant to have Tournament Official spotters.

Hammer them down first, then provide them and incentive to get certified via player pack or something.

 

[biscoe]

The rules experts on here should know by now that any rule that requires a timing or observation call by the competitors will not be called consistently unless the delineation of Good/Bad is visually obvious in real time AND violation is seen to be egregious enough to warrant a 1-throw penalty.

How many of you set your cruise control at some point over the speed limit you feel is "safe enough" to not be pulled over? Other drivers usually have no problem with you going 5mph over even though it's a violation. In fact, many want you to go even faster over the limit say in Chicago to not slow up traffic flow. You don't make a citizen's arrest and turn yourself in for going over the speed limit. Cops typically don't ticket or even warn for 5mph over except maybe in one traffic light towns and school zones.

We all know technically speeding is a violation but generally agree as a society there's wiggle room. Going even 10mph over a 60mph limit is much like stepping on or beside your mini during a throw. You and the thrower probably see it's a foot fault but it's not enough to deserve a "ticket." Players intuitively understand this. The challenge for rule makers is to figure out how to write a rule that works under this wiggle room idea and meshes with those who want a black & white call.

You also know that if some a-hole cop decides to write you a ticket for 57 in a 55 that he is within his bounds to do so. Writing rules for "wiggle room" doesn't work- at that point they are merely suggestions.

 

[JC17393]

This forum should be renamed Disc Golf Rule Review. Every single pro tournament discussion turns into a rules discussion.

Is that a reflection on the site or the fact that every pro tournament winds up having some rules-related issue that is worth discussing?

I mean, there's only so long that you can talk about how good McBeth is or how Eagle was just a little off with his consistency. Eventually, the subject changes.

 

[Cgkdisc]

You also know that if some a-hole cop decides to write you a ticket for 57 in a 55 that he is within his bounds to do so. Writing rules for "wiggle room" doesn't work- at that point they are merely suggestions.

I'll give an example of a wiggle room rule. What if the stance rule was like it is now but you were also allowed contact with the "20cm foul line" and marker during release but not completely plant beyond the line? I don't think anyone intentionally wants to touch/step on the mini because of possibly slipping. No one really tries or would try releasing with their plant foot partially over the front of the tee pad to avoid ankle damage or more. Taking step-putting out of the discussion for now, it would be much more obvious to the players and thrower to call a fault when they planted completely beyond the line/marker.

 

[biscoe]

I'll give an example of a wiggle room rule. What if the stance rule was like it is now but you were also allowed contact with the "20cm foul line" and marker during release but not completely plant beyond the line? I don't think anyone intentionally wants to touch/step on the mini because of possibly slipping. No one really tries or would try releasing with their plant foot partially over the front of the tee pad to avoid ankle damage or more. Taking step-putting out of the discussion for now, it would be much more obvious to the players and thrower to call a fault when they planted completely beyond the line/marker.

IMO it would make things even muddier than they are now which in turn would make calls even less likely, same as my opinion on enlarging the lie to begin with. For the most part the problem is not that player's cannot discern a fault when it occurs and they are paying attention- it is that they either don't pay attention or are unwilling to make the call. It's a behavior thing much moreso than an inadequate rule.

 

[SD86]

IMO it would make things even muddier than they are now which in turn would make calls even less likely, same as my opinion on enlarging the lie to begin with. For the most part the problem is not that player's cannot discern a fault when it occurs and they are paying attention- it is that they either don't pay attention or are unwilling to make the call. It's a behavior thing much moreso than an inadequate rule.

I agree. The rule is not the problem, enforcement of it is the issue.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I agree. The rule is not the problem, enforcement of it is the issue.

I'm afraid we have much more proof the rule is the problem and has been for quite a while. We have explained, coached, cajoled and penalized over many years but behavior hasn't changed and maybe has gotten worse. It's unlikely to change due to the specifics of how the rule should be called and the incentives to do so do not match what players have come to intuitively believe is "fair." Wiggle room, baby.

 

[JC17393]

I'm afraid we have much more proof the rule is the problem and has been for quite a while. We have explained, coached, cajoled and penalized over many years but behavior hasn't changed and maybe has gotten worse. It's unlikely to change due to the specifics of how the rule should be called and the incentives to do so do not match what players have come to intuitively believe is "fair." Wiggle room, baby.

To the bolded, can you elaborate? Because I don't recall any penalties levied at any time aimed at changing player behavior when it comes to calling violations and enforcing rules. Cajoling and explaining and coaching, sure. But how much of that has fallen on deaf ears as it's been concentrated to message boards like this that are seen only by a minority of the total base of players.

The issue forever has been the stigma associated with calling violations that those who do are the bad guys. No amount of rules tweaking or "wiggle room" is going to change that stigma. I think it's far more likely that more instances on video like Catrina's uncalled foot fault, especially focused upon like they did on the live broadcast, will draw enough attention to the issue to cause a change. Maybe it's unfair to make our best players the targets of such scrutiny, but if they're not held to a higher standard of expectations, why should we expect anyone else to care?

 

[Steve West]

..What if the stance rule was like it is now but you were also allowed contact with the "20cm foul line" and marker during release but not completely plant beyond the line?...

Then it would be just as tough to call because you couldn't tell whether that last 1mm of your foot was not completely beyond the line.

 

[XC_Eddy]

I can agree with some of your assessments on live vs post. I equate live DG to live baseball. It feels about the same pace of play. Sometimes slower sometimes faster, I read that the average game has around 140 pitches per team. So about 280 "throws", kinda like a 4some of DG. Each usually take just over 3 hours to play. But to me the best part about live is the community you watch it with. Watching sports a day later is always odd to me. When I watch post production, I get the feeling I am alone just consuming something with almost no excitement and announcers pretending they don't know what has happened. Just kinda saps the life from it for me. But the advantage of post is obvious. Timing & quality.

Your assessment is spot on. The benefit of live is experiencing it in real time with others while it is happening in real time. Watching the final round of World's last year live was thrilling. Paige B walking down 18's fairway towards a world title was a special moment, as was Gregg getting the long awaited huge win. Live captures the drama of the round in a way that post falls short. I agree with you there. I love em, Jerm and Nate trying to rehash excitement they felt the day before is not as electric as Terry or any other good commentator describing the events in real time with authentic emotion.

There's a reason live sports are in demand from networks right now: it's one of the few programs that has a distinct advantage when watched live. You can watch it with friends and family as a routine or event, you can follow with others on reddit, Twitter, or live chats. There's little incentive to do that with a show you can binge watch on demand without ads on Netflix.

The question is what the viewer is willing and able to sacrifice for sharing in the live experience. To watch live DG you sacrifice 2 more hours of time and a drop in quality. That works for some people, but not for everyone.

Baseball is an apt comparison. It moves at a similar pace to live DG. Lots downtime between bursts of action and takes about 3 hours. It's not an accident that I prefer post-produced DG and also have little interest in watching live baseball. Catching highlights of the Twins games up until they lose in the first round of the playoffs is good enough for me. A lot of people agree with me. Baseball viewership is the lowest it's been in 15 years and live attendance is down about 4% from one year to the next.

Where we diverge is what we prioritize in our viewership experience. If what you care about most is the drama and shared experience, then yes, live will alway be preferred for capturing that. I love the drama that live coverage best captures, but I'm not willing to sacrifice an additional 2 hours of my time + the drop in quality for it on a regular basis. Maybe for the final rd of Worlds or USDGC. Otherwise, watching post and discussing it with local dg friends and on this forum is a sufficient community experience for me and worth the gain in time and quality.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Then it would be just as tough to call because you couldn't tell whether that last 1mm of your foot was not completely beyond the line.

It's a similar problem but with much lower frequency. Of course, we don't have data but I suspect that there's much more contact with the marker and line with the front part of the foot than going beyond it with the heel just barely past the line and not actually touching the marker which would be okay under the proposal.

 

[Cgkdisc]

To the bolded, can you elaborate? Because I don't recall any penalties levied at any time aimed at changing player behavior when it comes to calling violations and enforcing rules. Cajoling and explaining and coaching, sure. But how much of that has fallen on deaf ears as it's been concentrated to message boards like this that are seen only by a minority of the total base of players.

The issue forever has been the stigma associated with calling violations that those who do are the bad guys. No amount of rules tweaking or "wiggle room" is going to change that stigma. I think it's far more likely that more instances on video like Catrina's uncalled foot fault, especially focused upon like they did on the live broadcast, will draw enough attention to the issue to cause a change. Maybe it's unfair to make our best players the targets of such scrutiny, but if they're not held to a higher standard of expectations, why should we expect anyone else to care?

I'm saying a one-throw penalty or re-throw have been too high for many players to make the call on what many perceive as inconsequential faults, especially when it might influence the outcome among players on their card.

 

[mizunodave]

I think the previous rule was better.

A) Players are much more likely to call a foot fault warning without penalty than an instant stroke penalty.
B) A warning gets the offending player and the cardmates paying attention the rest of the round and usually keeps it from happening again.
C) A couple inches in any direction is not an advantage and we don't want our players staring at each other's feet and calling multiple penalty strokes a round on each other. Having the mark be as small as possible (directly behind the center of the disc) means that it is easier to see and call when a player misses by a wide margin but allows a couple inches of wiggle room that isn't an advantage and won't be subject to petty rules over enforcement.

 

[ru4por]

Just looked at Jomez FPO R4 B9 and the foot fault on 17 was very clear . .much more so than on the live broadcast

see attached image

I swear when I heard about calls in golf tournaments being phoned in by viewers, I thought.....damn, I hope disc golf never gets to this place. Having discussions of missed calls, caught on camera are utter nonsense. Outside of the discussion of how to better ensure these calls are made in the right time and place.