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Plant foot/knee position before brace

Thediscgolferguy

Par Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2022
Messages
138
I noticed that as I come into my plant foot I land with my knee a little bent forward towards the toes. As I hit I also sink a bit into it and sometimes it goes almost leaking out over the toes before I straighten it out.

I notice most pros are pretty much stacked with their knees over heels as they plant, and I can't see that they sink into the ground much before they straighten out their brace, the only case I could find with a little digging was Isaac Robinson, I guess he ends up in the position because of very little stagger/toe to heel ratio. If I stagger more it seems to help slightly, but I'm wondering if this is something I should work on or if it's not a big deal at all.
 

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It looks to me that Robinson is not doing the inside swing here, his throwing shoulder is tipping over his posture (toes) a bit and I seem to have the same issue. But since he is doing it, I'm not quite sure, thoughts?
 
Good basis for discussion - I'll do my best here.

Why people get so confused looking at stillframes and slow motion
IMHO one of the problems that people have learning the "posture theory" of the swing online is that they need to pair and understand still frames with the real-time action patterns in their head and in the movement. Never just look at a 2D still frame. Look at the source videos and see what happens before and after the still frame, preferably in 3D and in real time if you can.

Head, shoulders, knees, and toes (knees, and toes!)
In the source video for your second image, watch how the player awkwardly brings their entire upper body way past the yellow line on the left, whereas Sidewinder has his shoulder pass through that vertical line with everything "stacked" over the knee. As the player on the left tilts their whole body over that imaginary line, notice that the knee itself is also moving and collapsing toward the West side of the tee. Sidewinder's immediately starts clearing his hip up and back to power the swing without the knee leaking West, and instead it goes East. If you do what the player on the left does, you can - you guessed it! - **** up your knee. If you do it like the player on the right, you get more out of your mAss leading the disc more directly toward the target, more backswing tension for power, and significantly less pressure on your knee, which more quickly clears out of the way if you land on it properly with significantly less torque on the knee soft tissues.

UyeqwCX.gif


What is swinging "inside posture", and is Robinson doing it?

Swinging inside or outside posture needs to be understood relative to the rest of the body and the tilted axis it moves on, not just the ground. Sidewinder and the touring guys are all swinging "inside" their posture. Sidewinder's axis is using the wall, and he is more upright with less hinging at the hips.

bemw4Ji.png


But notice that the tilted axis the body's balance moves on is also East-to-West, not just North to South:
lxY8p68.png


Accounting for that axis, notice where GG's knee goes as soon as his foot is starting to load up and transfer force up the chain. Notice when the shin is "vertical" relative to the ground after first coming in with a slant:
SpryLimpIndri-size_restricted.gif


If you then look at Robinson, you then can see how the tilted axis is very pronounced throwing on his preferred hyzer angle. This guy is very athletic and quick and light on his feet, and balances exceedingly well to get everything he can out of that side shuffle hop (rather than X-hop). Notice that his leading shoulder still passes through the imaginary line, and his whole posture is balanced "inside" his toes and head. As he swings, the leading elbow will swing through the imaginary "wall" like Inside Swing, which in this image would be extremely tilted on that yellow line. Now you know part of his source of power despite some relative limitations to the side shuffle hop in pure mechanical terms.

Lsr9W4E.png


However, there are some unique aspects to Robinson's form mentioned elsewhere, and I'm oversimplifying a few things for the sake of the example. Part of his side shuffle hop and posture do bring his plant side more directly toward the target than many X-hoppers/steppers, and his overall stacking is a little distinctive due to that extreme preservation of 90 degrees at the pocket and tremendous horizontal-to-vertical compression transition he pulls off. The sequence of his move is similar to a high level X-hopper, but the relative timing and rhythm are different, so on any particular camera angle at any moment, you will notice differences. You can also notice differences accordingly within X-hoppers, etc.

I will remind the dear reader not to retreat into the comfort, confusion, and criticism of the strictly 2D world. You need "4D vision" to understand the influences of form, camera angles, and postures. Watch in real time, consider where the angle is relative to the posture and form, try to understand where the tilted axis is, try to "see" the wall on that axis. When and how is the player swinging through the wall with the elbow? Is it "inside" the posture or not? Does the timing or shin angle look exactly the same at the "same time" in everyone?

Just want to emphasize some of the key mechanical points and why Robinson is posturally closer to Eagle than the amateur in seabas22's example than it may first appear once you account for the difference in overall mechanics including the side shuffle hop, related rhythm/sequence/timing issues and tilted swing axis, camera angle, etc.

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Brychanus; said:
Good basis for discussion - I'll do my best here.

Why people get so confused looking at stillframes and slow motion
IMHO one of the problems that people have learning the "posture theory" of the swing online is that they need to pair and understand still frames with the real-time action patterns in their head and in the movement. Never just look at a 2D still frame. Look at the source videos and see what happens before and after the still frame, preferably in 3D and in real time if you can.

Some of this might come from Paul Bertholy, one of the first if not the first well known ball golf teacher to invent and use a lot of drills. He died in 1998 at the age of 83 so this is old stuff.

He believed that the best way to learn golf was just to watch and imitate a pro, but that this method was only available to children. For adults, he used a freeze frame position method. He thought that there were several correct positions that had to be achieved during the swing, and at speed they might not be hit often enough for an adult to learn them. So he had adults move step by step holding each way point for 10 seconds. For a month. Second month you moved in slow motion still checking each was correct.

Did it work? I dunno. He had some good results, but so did other approaches. It seems to be similar to what you and SW22 do with looking at screen shots and angles in this thread, but dynamic postures are different from static. It is a 4D problem not a 3D.
 
preferably in 3D and in real time if you can...

You need "4D vision" to understand the influences of form, camera angles, and postures.

Yes, definitely a 4D problem!

Timothy thanks for sharing - that's also why I like learning from what is shared and different between slow vs. fast swings as momentum spools up. In person I might use a still frame or two for people to help them see what I'm talking about and then spend the rest of the time on moving. Showing moves, having them try, comparing moves to each other, comparing feels, and only explaining rarely and in as few words as possible. "Backleading" some moves that require more momentum to learn. No still frame makes sense without its 4D context. It's also very hard to communicate any context at all with a single still frame.

I didn't know of Bertholy, and will look into his instruction and if there was any good evidence about it for older groups. That definitely sounds on the opposite end of the "observe and do" approach that kids soak up so quickly.

Anecdotally you made me remember: I always found it interesting that my dance instructor (who has trained many top dancers in her field and is now in her 70s) would teach the youngest and oldest groups very differently. The young kids got more of the "soak it up like a sponge" treatment with the fewest words. The eldest got the "yoke it to words and very sequential concepts" treatment with more words, and she was always politely entertaining questions but redirecting the adults back to the movement task at hand. The middle groups (including me) got somewhere in between. Interestingly, she was much more likely to "backlead" me and my age group with tons of momentum than either little kids or adults. There's some wisdom in there too, and the bolded part often contained the biggest lessons once certain basic movement patterns were established. She would only use that momentous method with the much older dancers who already had good balance, were physically sound, and could handle momentum without risking falling. Something like Viennese Waltz can send you off balance or crashing into a wall quickly if you're not in pretty good control of what you are doing.
 
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Good basis for discussion - I'll do my best here.

I have tried the inside swing drill before but I never really got it or understood its purpose. The only thing I got from it is that you need to swing inside your posture. This post makes it a whole lot clearer to me, thanks!

He thought that there were several correct positions that had to be achieved during the swing, and at speed they might not be hit often enough for an adult to learn them. So he had adults move step by step holding each way point for 10 seconds. For a month. Second month you moved in slow motion still checking each was correct.

This is one approach I always wondered about how well it might work. It would require test subjects that are willing to spend a year or maybe even more just moving very slowly and not getting better on the course. Even learning a drill for me is hard because it means my form on the course will be laughably bad for a month.

My intuition at this point tells me it would not work very well. Drills, to me, teach what a movement feels like. Once I know that I can tell my body what to do and reinforce it through practice. I doubt much feeling for a good movement would develop just moving slowly for a year. And thus I would have no idea what to tell my body to do.
 
I have tried the inside swing drill before but I never really got it or understood its purpose. The only thing I got from it is that you need to swing inside your posture. This post makes it a whole lot clearer to me, thanks!

YW! That drill is also very good at giving you the feel for coiling into the rear side and for side bend.
 

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