Playoff holes

[araytx]

Hmmmmmm.

Two players are tied for 1st place at the end of regulation. They are on a course that snakes through a park and where the headquarters in nearest to hole 5, because it is a long skinny parking lot and the electrical power is closer to hole 5 than hole 1. The players turn in their (electronic) scorecards and are summoned via PA to the HQ. The TD tells them that they will play holes 5, 6, 7, 17, & 18 in a loop, keeping them as close to HQ as possible during the playoff. Sudden death. First hole where one player has a lower score than the other gives that player the win.

At that point player A begins to challenge the TD on the playoff holes selected. He says there is nothing that gave them any indication that there would be "special holes" for a playoff. He is insisting that they begin on hole #1. (The reality is that hole #1 sets up really nicely for the player with a backhand roller and he has a pretty decent one whereas player B does not ever even throw rollers. Hole #1 is a difficult drive off the tee for the air shot, requires precision 275 feet away.) He is asking for them to show him any written or previously communicated information -- on the tournament flyer, tournament Facebook page, the registration page on disc golf scene, anywhere -- about this special "playoff loop." The TD tells him that they've been running this same event this same weekend for more than 10 years now, and we've done every playoff this way. Does he have a case?? Why or why not?

 

[F.Luke]

The player is correct per PDGA competition manual 1.09B.

 

[Cgkdisc]

1.09 Ties (Competition Manual)
B.....Sudden death play shall begin with hole number one unless a different hole or series of holes is designated by the Tournament Director prior to the start of the tournament....

 

[DavidSauls]

Something most TDs should consider, in advance....a series of holes that won't be too far from HQ, and will be reasonably fair to players with different styles.

 

[teemkey]

1.09 Ties (Competition Manual)
B.....Sudden death play shall begin with hole number one unless a different hole or series of holes is designated by the Tournament Director prior to the start of the tournament....

If the holes (5,6,...) were used in prior iterations of the tournament, wouldn't that meet the criteria?

(Aray, I'm reminded of your story about skipping your drive onto an island hole and being called OB)

 

[biscoe]

Something most TDs should consider, in advance....a series of holes that won't be too far from HQ, and will be reasonably fair to players with different styles.

Considering it isn't my issue... it's remembering to post it. :wall:

 

[Cgkdisc]

If the holes (5,6,...) were used in prior iterations of the tournament, wouldn't that meet the criteria?

(Aray, I'm reminded of your story about skipping your drive onto an island hole and being called OB)

I'm not sure it does since how would first-time players know that? It's similar to how TDs have to request waivers for special OB rules on the same holes each tournament even though they have been approved before.

 

[teemkey]

I'm not sure it does since how would first-time players know that? It's similar to how TDs have to request waivers for special OB rules on the same holes each tournament even though they have been approved before.

If there were some parameters tied to the word "prior" to indicate when (and, in a perfect world, how) the tournament players are informed, it would be clear. Some ideas would be in the caddie book, player pack. or (easiest) announced at the player meeting.

"This is how we've always done it" is a familiar justification at DG competitions.

 

[Steve West]

Hmmmmmm.

Two players are tied for 1st place ...

The player has a case for reporting the TD, but they still have to play the holes the TD says they will play. Players can't overrule the TD, even if the TD is breaking rules applicable to the TD.

 

[krupicka]

The holes can be designated prior to the tournament, but that could just be in the TD's own notes with the plan. Nothing says where they have to be published. The plan could just be on a clipboard in his hand. The rule is there to prevent a TD from making a biased decision on how playoffs are run based on who they see in the playoff. As long as there was a plan in place beforehand, I would say the TD is ok here. My $0.02

 

[biscoe]

The holes can be designated prior to the tournament, but that could just be in the TD's own notes with the plan. Nothing says where they have to be published. The plan could just be on a clipboard in his hand. The rule is there to prevent a TD from making a biased decision on how playoffs are run based on who they see in the playoff. As long as there was a plan in place beforehand, I would say the TD is ok here. My $0.02

You're the authority but IMO such a rule is toothless if the holes are not made available to players prior. Any TD who would change the holes to benefit a player to begin with would most likely have no qualms about diverging from their "notes".

 

[krupicka]

You're the authority but IMO such a rule is toothless if the holes are not made available to players prior. Any TD who would change the holes to benefit a player to begin with would most likely have no qualms about diverging from their "notes".

My response above is non-authoritative, (hence the $0.02). I think a discussion on this is good.

I would hope TDs are impartial. Maybe better is to say, by having the plan in place beforehand, the TDs are protected from claims of favoritism. Along that line of reasoning the rule is there to protect the TD more than to protect the player. Thoughts?

In the OP case, it seems pretty clear that there was a plan, and it was to use the same plan as they had done for the past 10 years.

 

[Cgkdisc]

My response above is non-authoritative, (hence the $0.02). I think a discussion on this is good.

I would hope TDs are impartial. Maybe better is to say, by having the plan in place beforehand, the TDs are protected from claims of favoritism. Along that line of reasoning the rule is there to protect the TD more than to protect the player. Thoughts?

In the OP case, it seems pretty clear that there was a plan, and it was to use the same plan as they had done for the past 10 years.

Separate from concerns about a TD favoring certain players, the current competition rule came about when it was common for TDs to be playing in their events, many times being one of the better players, and determining the starting playoff holes or sequence to their favor when they were tied and heading for a playoff.

 

[krupicka]

Separate from concerns about a TD favoring certain players, the current competition rule came about when it was common for TDs to be playing in their events, many times being one of the better players, and determining the starting playoff holes or sequence to their favor when they were tied and heading for a playoff.

Good point. I've been lobbying for the tour standards to stop allowing TDs to play in their own events for a couple of years.

 

[biscoe]

Good point. I've been lobbying for the tour standards to stop allowing TDs to play in their own events for a couple of years.

I would not support this. Requiring a non-playing official for B tier or above would be sufficient imo. (which was the requirement at one point I think)

 

[biscoe]

My response above is non-authoritative, (hence the $0.02). I think a discussion on this is good.

I would hope TDs are impartial. Maybe better is to say, by having the plan in place beforehand, the TDs are protected from claims of favoritism. Along that line of reasoning the rule is there to protect the TD more than to protect the player. Thoughts?

In the OP case, it seems pretty clear that there was a plan, and it was to use the same plan as they had done for the past 10 years.

IMO you can't go by what was done in the past. Too many things can change from one year to the next and this year's players can't be expected to know last year's rulings.

Also IMO the holes should have to be publicly available to constitute being "designated". Everyone is then on the same page.

 

[_MTL_]

The player has a case for reporting the TD, but they still have to play the holes the TD says they will play. Players can't overrule the TD, even if the TD is breaking rules applicable to the TD.

The real question is then what?

 

[Steve West]

The real question is then what?

Don't know. We'll have to wait for the CM to be re-written better so all the rules have the consequences spelled out.

 

[Chains Bailey]

I learned, a while back, to always publish the Playoff procedures ahead of the event.

Takes any ideas of non-fair play out of the equation and simplifies things for the TD.

Good point. I've been lobbying for the tour standards to stop allowing TDs to play in their own events for a couple of years.

I would never support this at all and please stop advocating in this direction.

I have ran events 20+ years and played in all of them. Never have had any issues arise.

Possible issues:

- If there is a rules question, play it both ways and ask after the round.
- If there is an emergency, I am equally available if I am on the course or sitting at Tournament Central. (I have stopped playing twice to tend to emergencies, my responsibilities as a TD come first)
- A long playoff which includes myself. After this many years, I have things set up for this occurrence and all will continue forward with out interruption.

If, I am fortunate, I play 10 events a year and taking away 5 of them due to volunteering to be a TD does not sound supportive at all.

I understand if it applies to NT and DGPT - at that level the TD is almost an employee. PDGA A-Tier and below, I do not agree.

 

[araytx]

If the holes (5,6,...) were used in prior iterations of the tournament, wouldn't that meet the criteria?

(Aray, I'm reminded of your story about skipping your drive onto an island hole and being called OB)

You remembered that? It's been a while since I posted that story, but boy oh boy, did I learn a lesson about asking the TD to clarify during player meetings. I may be the only guy to be called "out-of bounds" and the disc is literally 6 inches from the pole.