Pro Only Tour: Would you pay extra?

[Koffee]

I think if you try to squeeze more out of the AMs you run the risk of having non PDGA activities and events that do not require membership. I would say most tournaments in my area are outside of the pdga and almost all the players that compete do not belong.

If you increase the cost I think you stand a chance to loose more members at the AM level. You might also possibly just create more non PDGA events which give players no incentive to join.

Money is increasing in the sport. It is not happening at warp speed but you now see non disc related companies putting money into events. We have more courses going in and a larger player base developing. It will just take some time to change the idea that disc golf is a sport and not an activity.

Cheers - Koffee

 

[LukeButch]

You know, ESPN shows poker. I don't watch it. I don't play poker. You know who does watch poker on ESPN? Poker players.

"poker players" in this sense being anyone who has ever played any card game in their life. Americans watch stuff when there is alot of money on the line, something disc golf will never have(not in my lifetime at least)

 

[Stud Muffin]

-A thread is out there complaining about how awful it is that an online store raised their prices by a DOLLAR.
-Most people mark it as a CON when they have to pay a green fee, which can be as low as a DOLLAR.

There is an old saying:
"If money can solve your problems, then you do not have a real problem."

That said:
1 - People are not out working their life away to give their money away. If one store sells a disc for $20, and another store sells it for $15, not only am I going to buy the one for $15, but I will more exclusively shop where the price is lower. Perhaps the $1 raise destroyed may people's justification for buying [supporting] the online store, when a local store is now equal in pricing, for example. I bet you would buy gas at a store that sold it $.10/gal cheaper than their competitors. And I bet you would complain if all the local gas stations went up $.10/gallon overnight. Still, that is only $1 over 10 gallons.

2 - Most of the courses are in public parks. Point being, a lot of us pay a lot of $ in taxes for the upkeep of these parks. We are already paying to play DG. By charging on top of changing is an insult. If it is a private DG park, like ball golf courses are mostly privately owned, then I could understand a green fee, but never a public course. Chickasabogue charged $1, but it wasn't for DG, but for entering the park, where there is a beach for swimming, and other things... but it was still an insult. We only played there when we were bored with the other courses.

 

[Stud Muffin]

"poker players" in this sense being anyone who has ever played any card game in their life.

Very good point.
There are more poker players than DG players, thus, a good reason why poker is on ESPN, but DG is not. 'Increase' the number of players, aka more ams.

Americans watch stuff when there is alot of money on the line, something disc golf will never have(not in my lifetime at least)

Um, it would be nothing for people to put big money bets on a DG game, but I hope that is not the direction the PDGA has in mind. More like big $ sponsors, who sponsor because the sport draws a big crowd. [there is the key]

 

[Stud Muffin]

Children - AMs

 

[Clempson13]

why do DG "pro" players have to make enough to cover all their living expenses by playing? this really isn't that big of a sport for that.

hell i remember when i played tourny paintball and it was on ESPN and the top players didn't come close to making enough to live off event winnings, they were happy breaking even on expenses to play, even with sponsers. **** i've been on ESPN playing before for paintball, which is way further than DG is at the moment, and i was happy that i got a discounted field fee and paint at production cost.

maybe that extra money people are asking for should go towards funding new courses, bringing awareness to the sport, or paying people to clean up current courses. i dk, seems like the priorities of the sport aren't aligning with the people they are asking to fund it.

the only thing really hurting DG events and payouts is that there is no incentive for players to spend more every season on a regular basis. it seems that older molds and discs are worth more because they are somehow "better". wtf kind of company policy is that to make an inferior product after you sell out of your inventory. companies need to at least appear to innovate to drive annual consumption of their products and improve profits. selling the same damn disc year after year won't do it when everyone already has it. ball golf companies know this, they "improve" their line annually.

"i hope they lose it i hope they lose it" - the motto driving the dg industry profits.

 

[Ripper]

Sig discs are a great idea as well, merchandising is always the ultimate money maker. I worked in the independent music bizz for years and I can tell you it's the t-shirt sales at concerts that keep the band afloat, definitely not record sales. It's no different for a pro; its not their 50k in winnings its the million dollar MERCH contract with Nike.

That being said, I don't think it's a bad thing that ams support the pros. They do in every sport; I just feel like the ams in THIS sport expect everything to just happen without putting any money toward anything. Since we don't have a non-playing fan base (ala baseball basketball football tennis golf skiing snowboarding swimming hockey and soccer), we don't have fan money to send toward the pros. I have tried to find some merch to buy but honestly most of it is pretty douchey. Disc golf baskets look lame on shirts and hats. There I said it.


.

Yeah, can never see myself buying anything with "HIT THE CHAINS" etc. 100% agreement with you. Maybe some of the Huk Lab stuff is all right but still would never buy it.

Would I travel to see a major disc golf tournament, or a pro only open? Yes, I would, and if the atmosphere is right might even pay an attendance fee.

Paintball was a sport that was always in obscurity and thought of as a bunch of stonewall vets running through the woods, until Speedball, Super Airball, etc all the wild colors, slider pants and gear. I spent every dime of my teenage years on the newest angels and perfect bore barrels. Then tournaments started forming and then just kind of exploded for awhile with the electronic markers, etc. Of course my god I would blow close to 40 dollars a round somedays. That sport was for the kids with rich parents not the kid that cut grass to play. Who knows maybe the answer is figuring out a new DG type style and a way to make discs more disposable? Honestly, think they really need to figure out a better way to film it and revenue would quickly come out of my hands, to watch Pro Disc Golf!

 

[Stud Muffin]

why do DG "pro" players have to make enough to cover all their living expenses by playing? this really isn't that big of a sport for that.

hell i remember when i played tourny paintball and it was on ESPN and the top players didn't come close to making enough to live off event winnings, they were happy breaking even on expenses to play, even with sponsers. **** i've been on ESPN playing before for paintball, which is way further than DG is at the moment, and i was happy that i got a discounted field fee and paint at production cost.

maybe that extra money people are asking for should go towards funding new courses, bringing awareness to the sport, or paying people to clean up current courses. i dk, seems like the priorities of the sport aren't aligning with the people they are asking to fund it.

the only thing really hurting DG events and payouts is that there is no incentive for players to spend more every season on a regular basis. it seems that older molds and discs are worth more because they are somehow "better". wtf kind of company policy is that to make an inferior product after you sell out of your inventory. companies need to at least appear to innovate to drive annual consumption of their products and improve profits. selling the same damn disc year after year won't do it when everyone already has it. ball golf companies know this, they "improve" their line annually.

"i hope they lose it i hope they lose it" - the motto driving the dg industry profits.

Just speaking as a person who has to drive 40 miles to play an established course,[Festus - Jokerst, West City] and 20 miles to play a 1 year old 9 basket course, [Potosi], I am VERY excited my hometown of Farmington, and Gateway, is putting a course here. I bought a Gateway Sabre a few days ago. Later next week, I will probably buy a Gateway Titan portable basket. Gateway has been putting up courses in my area, [Potosi, Farmington], and I am going to buy their product for this reason alone. Not only that, I already started a DGR "Farmington Disc Golf Club" social group, and I want to extend this to the community. I have already taught 3 people the game, 2 play regularly, and once this course gets built, I am sure I can get more people out playing.

And I am not getting paid to do any of this.

I know Gateway's Dave 'Mac' wrote an article about a future 'pro tour', but they are getting out here and putting courses up, so that tells me they really know what is going on, to get more people involved in the game of disc golf.

I am just a little tired of the whole "Raise the $ in payouts in tournaments = the game growing" idea. It doesn't work that way.

 

[scarpfish]

1 - People are not out working their life away to give their money away. If one store sells a disc for $20, and another store sells it for $15, not only am I going to buy the one for $15, but I will more exclusively shop where the price is lower. Perhaps the $1 raise destroyed may people's justification for buying [supporting] the online store, when a local store is now equal in pricing, for example. I bet you would buy gas at a store that sold it $.10/gal cheaper than their competitors. And I bet you would complain if all the local gas stations went up $.10/gallon overnight. Still, that is only $1 over 10 gallons.

You're analogy isn't even remotely relevant to the point Danger was making. DGC raised their prices due to increased prices from the manufacturers. Since all retailers buy from the same manufacturers, many of their competitors, both online and offline have also, or will soon likely will do the same. The $15 store is now selling for $16, and the $20 store is now selling for $21. If you can still find a place selling for less, shop there to your delight.

2 - Most of the courses are in public parks. Point being, a lot of us pay a lot of $ in taxes for the upkeep of these parks. We are already paying to play DG. By charging on top of changing is an insult. If it is a private DG park, like ball golf courses are mostly privately owned, then I could understand a green fee, but never a public course. Chickasabogue charged $1, but it wasn't for DG, but for entering the park, where there is a beach for swimming, and other things... but it was still an insult. We only played there when we were bored with the other courses.

Ahh, the ol "my taxes already pay for this" argument. I really wish people who made this argument actually did an analysis of how much of their actual taxes went into their park system and how much was specifically allocated to maintaining the disc golf facilities there. I'll bet they would find even for courses within the jurisdiction that they contribute most of their taxes to, its practically pennies. Perhaps people who use ball golf courses, swimming pools, reserve public park shelters or athletic fields, should protest the "insult" of having to pay user fees since their taxes supposedly pay for those amenities too.

 

[Danger]

^Thanks.

He actually kind of proved the point I was making...the cheapness of Disc Golfers can make a dollar sound like a pot of gold

And for the record, when I buy gas, I go to the station that has open pumps and is easy to get in/out of. I can care less if they charge $0.10 more a gallon.

 

[Sneaky Alligator]

^Thanks.

He actually kind of proved the point I was making...the cheapness of Disc Golfers can make a dollar sound like a pot of gold

And for the record, when I buy gas, I go to the station that has open pumps and is easy to get in/out of. I can care less if they charge $0.10 more a gallon.

yes, some disc golfers are cheap, but some of us carry around hundreds of dollars in bag/discs.

and your second point is just silly, you're saying you'd rather pay more than wait 2 minutes for a pump? monetary philosophies like that contribute to a broke azz PDGA

 

[Stud Muffin]

If you can still find a place selling for less, shop there to your delight.

Agreed :thmbup:

Ahh, the ol "my taxes already pay for this" argument. I really wish people who made this argument actually did an analysis of how much of their actual taxes went into their park system and how much was specifically allocated to maintaining the disc golf facilities there. I'll bet they would find even for courses within the jurisdiction that they contribute most of their taxes to, its practically pennies. Perhaps people who use ball golf courses, swimming pools, reserve public park shelters or athletic fields, should protest the "insult" of having to pay user fees since their taxes supposedly pay for those amenities too.

Public park, public course, public funding. Since I am just 'entering' what many of you take for granted, a home town course, first I would like to point out who is buying the baskets. That would be the city of Farmington. And guess where they got their money from. hmmm

Anyways, I will be supporting my local course in clean up, and though I have 'Zilch' information on it so far, I will be doing everything I can to get multiple tees and basket placements, then I will raise funds to cement these multiple tees, and I will get out and build and level the frame, though I am not too great at smoothing cement, I hope someone steps up for that part. After this, I will be there for maintenance, and of course, for a lot of rounds of disc golf. ...now would you want to charge me $1 to play on this course? [I would punch someone in the nose for trying ]

^Thanks.

He actually kind of proved the point I was making...the cheapness of Disc Golfers can make a dollar sound like a pot of gold

Since a dollar means nothing to you, if I could find 999,999 more people like you, I could get a free Million Buck$.

And for the record, when I buy gas, I go to the station that has open pumps and is easy to get in/out of. I can care less if they charge $0.10 more a gallon.

Got it.
So, instead of putting effort into something, you want to throw money at something, and just want it to be easy.

Nothing wrong with that philosophy, just you are so out of touch with people who work so hard on courses to turn around and want them to pay to play. Surely you are not paying volunteers with this money.

 

[Three Putt]

I'm not sure where this is going, I'm kinda lost.

Pay for play is a different issue. There are pros and cons to it. On the one hand when I ran an athletic field complex for a park district it made it pretty easy to get softball field improvements into the Capital Improvement budget when I could show over $40,000 in team registration income. That helped a lot to grease the wheels of bureaucracy. If parks departments were seeing a consistent revenue stream from disc golf courses, it would be easier to get new courses installed and presumably the departments would be trying to attract rounds so they might hire somebody who knows what they are doing to design the course and improve the quality of the courses we have.

The flip side is what disc golf has always been: a small sport driven by volunteers. We have shown a DIY ethic in building courses, maintaining courses and holding events. Disc golf by disc golfers. It cuts a lot of the potential revenue sources out, but it keeps us in control of our destiny to a certain extent. Softball players really don't get that, they pay their fees and hope the guy the parks hired to take care of their fields is not a bozo. Softball players don't come out and volunteer to maintain their fields, they don't have that type of sense of a community.

Disc golf for a long time has had that sense of being part of a larger community, but as we grow it get's harder to hold together. As we lose that sense of community, our willingness to volunteer and work on courses will go away as well and things like pay for play will creep in to make up the shortfall.

Part of the loss of that sense of community is what is driving the discussion the OP started. When I started playing we of course looked up to the Open pros like people do today. At that time in my area you would run into guys like David Greenwell and Dr. Rick. When I listened to those guys talk and they mentioned "us," I felt like "us" meant anybody who played disc golf. There was one boat, and if you had a golf disc in your hand you were in it. Now we are more split with "pros" and "Am" and "casuals" and we argue back in forth about who should be doing what for who. The sense of "us" all in one boat is gone. It's probably just an inevitable part of the sport growing, but I see it as an issue going forward. The more we splinter, the harder it will be to keep the DIY spirit that has driven this sport for the last 25 years going.

 

[craftsman]

I agree about p2p creating a lack of volunteerism.....at least in my area.
The majority of courses i frequent are, and have been well before i started playing, pay to play in the sense that metro and county parks charge for admittance into the park. 3/4 of the metros now charge 5/day or 25/yr for the park and 2/day or 50/yr for dg. Indy and rolling hills charge (non resident) 9/day or 65/yr.

While im truely gratefull for the courses and anny up for all three passes ($150) i really feel that vollenteerism is now non existant, especially in my " class" of discers (3-5 yrs of exp). i am saddened by this.

I am one of the "likes to belong to counter culture" types, and even in my short time playing i have seen the split 3putt is speaking of. Even worse, i am seeing a split in am/casual. When i started, it was common to geet every discer you saw- a hand shake and intro wasnt nessecary, just a simple "whats up", but even that seems to becoming the past as the new gen doesnt say anything back. I feels like its pro vs pdga ams and geared up ams vs one disc wonders.......thats not how it should be

 

[LukeButch]

yes, some disc golfers are cheap, but some of us carry around hundreds of dollars in bag/discs.

and your second point is just silly, you're saying you'd rather pay more than wait 2 minutes for a pump? monetary philosophies like that contribute to a broke azz PDGA

for some people saving time and avoiding stress is worth losing small amounts of money.

 

[smyith]

Many of us are already paying an extra $25 per year because "we" get more out of membership than AMs do.

that makes me laugh!

 

[JR Stengele]

no way I am giving the PDGA any more than I do already.


They should figure out how to stop wasting so much money, and how to retain members before considering a increase in fees of any sort.


could have had a really nice payout at their event this year(PDGA Championship) if they stopped wasting money on marshals, sending the ED to NTs- if you have an elite tour series, these events should not need any help at the event. The PDGA needs to trust TDs to do a good job, and if they don't, not sanction events they run in the future. Every year there are more and more events, but with the exception of a tiny few no increase in the quality of these events.

:thmbup:

 

[slowRoll]

No thanks.

 

[Stud Muffin]

I agree about p2p creating a lack of volunteerism.....at least in my area.
The majority of courses i frequent are, and have been well before i started playing, pay to play in the sense that metro and county parks charge for admittance into the park. 3/4 of the metros now charge 5/day or 25/yr for the park and 2/day or 50/yr for dg. Indy and rolling hills charge (non resident) 9/day or 65/yr.

While im truely gratefull for the courses and anny up for all three passes ($150) i really feel that vollenteerism is now non existant, especially in my " class" of discers (3-5 yrs of exp). i am saddened by this.

Let me clarify 'why' volunteerism is now non-existent.[there] Because they are throwing money at the problem, and walking away.

Or let me put it like this. The time I spend working on a course through the year is worth FAR more than $150/year [just for example, use that number]. Now if the baskets are paid for, the tees are paid for, and the course is maintained, what is the $ for?

If you leave $ out of it, and get people to volunteer, then that is a much higher value than asking people to pay$, and then that is there reason to touch and do nothing, but complain about everything. It makes sense, if people are paying to maintain the course, they are not going to go out and work on the course for free, since 'OBVIOUSLY' someone is getting paid to do it.

 

[craftsman]

Yeah, i feel the tides are slowly turning from "the metro parks are great for providing us courses" to "did you see how many passes they sold this year? And thats just one locations book so imagine all the others plus the dailys. What are they doing with all that money? Its been a few years now, any course updates coming soon? Why should we have to pay 3 times as much as other park goers? The course looks worse then when they started charging."

Last winters convo was really focused on shoveling tees. Imo we do a good job shoveling the local courses- including those with general entrance fees- but (i believe) due to the metros chargeing for a seperate dg pass thats twice as much as the general, most felt the parks should of shoveled.