Shifting correctly makes bracing easy

[HyzerUniBomber]

This is a long ramble, feel free to ignore - but I've seen better distance than ever with this "ah-ha moment".

If you hadn't see it - it'd be hard to believe, but Garrett Gurthie has regularly out driven the biggest arms in the game. A dude who hasn't been on tour for some time, isn't built like an orangutan, and doesn't take much of an x-step... will out drive top pros by 50'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPn9aoLSbEs

Why is that guy out throwing other big arms?

For most of the disc golfers who might peruse Tech and Strat only to shake their heads at the nerds, they've probably missed out on a number of conversations that have played out in the Form & Analysis forum in a number of threads. I will poke around from time to time and this meandering conversation started unlocking some ideas that I'd never fully solidified in my own thoughts about generating and using momentum for the purpose of a backhand drive.

I've been thinking, testing, adjusting, and writing about backhands for the better part of the last 4-5 years, but this was another moment where the lightbulb didn't just flicker for a second... it exploded. This is buried in the SlowPlastic tome.

...

The conversations that have been happening in the various threads have been wonderfully enlightening for me, and I thought I'd sorta figured things out! The problem is that there's 2 pretty extremely different camps that are trying to accomplish the same thing - but through a different means.

There's the downshift camp, which is very obvious in the GG throws - he gets dead vertical on the toes of the back foot and then throws the underhand basketball forward.

Then there's the Will S camp from that original video, where he does the 1-step staying basically flat and and doing this: https://youtu.be/30cUNsWOYSI?t=196
which I personally dislike for a 1-step shot.

When I look at the 2 camps, I think the GG camp can generate power easier and with less wear and tear. My old videos on youtube are full of shots of me doing the Will S 1-step and I could generate some pretty good power, but that Will S is very incompatible with an x-step and it still didn't create the same power.

Furthermore, the Will S is very reliant on a whip-like motion with my arm. The GG motion just traps the momentum from the down shift and if the disc is loaded into the center chest, the momentum blasts it forwards. Same motion with an x-step.

Next up, I think SlowPlastic has nailed it with the diagram, and Lumberjacks's gif is spot on - and this is not just "shifting from behind" which I think is not the right terminology anymore - it's more like "shifting to trap the momentum" so that it's setup AT THE CENTER CHEST!

That's key, and I don't think I really put the words to it until we've had this group conversation. I don't want my momentum trapped and ready after my shoulders are opening, that's too late! We all know, and have long discussed the need to get the arc out front - and that it's a fundamental aspect to when the race starts.

But for this staggered-shift (and hopefully the down-shift) to work best, all the timing has to come together so the resistance of the brace pressured up against the frontside and rebounding inside the frame happens right through the extension. When you do that, the transfer of the momentum goes to the arcing forward disc.

I was able to start seeing the light with the concept of under-handing a basketball and thinking about a track and field hammer thrower.

...

What has unlocked power in this idea? The mental experiment of visualizing your forearm completely as a lever on a hinge at your elbow. What direction does the forearm lever need to be leveraged?

(homework, watch now with eyes on shift direction)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eD-JUyiRjI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpICK3NSQb0

The direction of your shift is not directly targetward. Why? Because as SlowPlastic pointed out somewhere, in baseball you're shifting your weight to maximize your leverage for where you swing the bat. When you look at an Olympic hammer throw, they're not shifting their weight towards where the hammer is going - they're shifting it where they maximize the leverage for where you accelerate the hammer!

In a backhand, the disc is coming out of your hand with your arm pointing at approximately 10:30 on a clock, assuming that 12:00 is the actual line the disc will fly on:

Somewhere in the archives of this site, I drew the ejection point and the redirection of the disc for an overhead of Dan Beto... couldn't find it.

So if the leverage for that forearm needs to maximize momentum from A. Hand on the outside ~ center chest to B. 10:30 arm extension where the disc pings out, then we have to shift about 20-30 degrees left of the line that we're throwing on (RHBH). If you shift straight targetward, in our example of a hammer throw, you'd be setup to throw the thing too far right. Same is true in discgolf, a straight targetward shift would only be appropriately powerful if you grip locked it and threw it 30 degrees too right!

When I started to see the ejection point as being at the 10:30 mark on the clock, I had to seriously shake my head because for so long, my shift into the brace didn't feel like I could get that position:

because I couldn't trap the momentum, I was shifting too straight - and Eagle was shifting the right direction. As soon as I shifted to maximize the leverage on my forearm arcing forward, my back leg smashed forward, just like Eagle!

When I add in the power of the downshift from getting up on just the back big toe, with the simplicity of the idea of throwing a brick or a basketball underhanded:



My power is now better than ever, and quite literally I'm using muscle only to hold my frame in the right positions, not to accelerate the arc forward.

 

[Tudubs]

So we should be shifting 20-30 degrees to the left. Is this why our plant foot is a foot or a foot and half higher than our left foot? Are we striding forward/target ward or stride more to the left? How do we achieve this 20-30 shift to the left?

 

[sidewinder22]

Diagonal stance, diagonal and vertical shift, and rotational bracing:
Upshot:

Full Swing:

 

[Discusted]

Can someone explain to me what down shift and in the above picture vertical shift is?

I understand diagonal shift. Weight shifting from back foot to a staggered front foot? But what's downshift and vertical shift?

 

[Putt for D'oh]

This is really what the kick the can like lizzotte was about right?

I see it may solve an issue I have and others in not getting that rear knee in and under and basically being blocked from getting into the bowler follow through position.
Getting that diagonal shift opens up the space but also requires that counterbalance.

 

[sidewinder22]

Can someone explain to me what down shift and in the above picture vertical shift is?

I understand diagonal shift. Weight shifting from back foot to a staggered front foot? But what's downshift and vertical shift?

Hopefully this makes some sense. IMO...

Downshift and vertical shift are really the same thing except down is only describing the downward motion. Vertical shift describes both the upward and downward motion although I prefer to call it Compression as a more encompassing conceptual term. You hop and compress against the ground like a spring and generate more efficient force(G-forces) using the acceleration of gravity in the vertical plane. So if you use your body as the fulcrum and arm/disc like a ball on a string you can really zing the ball/disc away in a direction you want effortlessly just by using the free fall acceleration gravity and moving your whole body/arm in a certain rhythmic way. With a literal ball on string you can feel how you need to move/change the acceleration/direction of your wrist to zing the ball on string/weight to a target of your choosing.

Moe Norman called it the Vertical Drop and Horizontal Tug. Mike Maves calls it Compression in "the move", and so does Shawn Clement, he also describes it as Centripetal Pump/standing on a swing and pumping the swing. It is also referred to as Parametric Acceleration.

Most people think of weightshift as only in the 2D horizontal plane from one foot to the other foot, IMO this is incorrect thinking. Gravity is what gives you weight as a scale reads the force created with your mass accelerated by gravity. Force is measured by weight. When you hop you create more weight and dynamically change your weight massively, going from weightless in free fall to sudden impact weighing several times your static body weight so there is a lot of force being generated effortlessly from the extra acceleration of gravity in the impact and you can transfer that through your body posture to the arm/disc.

To convert horizontal motion into weight/force requires more work and is very inefficient and not natural to the body. This creates a lot torque through the leg/knee. The more horizontal you shift the more you need your foot to pivot and earlier it needs to pivot, when it pivots during the swing it's technically spinning out of leverage. The knee is not designed to move horizontally, but it is designed to move vertically and so you don't need the foot to pivot as much while generating equal or more force. Vertically this also provides your front foot a more stable platform or fulcrum to leverage the swing from and transfer more force.

Parametric Acceleration explaining how the vertical component keeps the tip of pendulum swinging flat through the hit:
https://www.adamyounggolf.com/low-point-and-parametric-acceleration/

Mike Maves starts off talking about the "Windmill Drill" or he calls it the Travino Drill which I've referred to as it in the past. Windmill is just the reverse Feldy backswing, lots of players do this forehand(McBeth, Lizotte, Jenkins), and you can do it backhand. Maves also talks about the Vertical Drop Horizontal Tug and Compression. Everything he says in here is spot on, even when he talks about people thinking it's quackery, but it really is the simplest thing in the world when you understand it. I had to watch it about 1000 times to really understand it. Most people just watch it once or can't stand the other guy talking, but I love it, Mike's answers to his questions are so spot on and they are the same questions I get from people on here, he is asking the wrong questions, so Mike responds "but anyway, so what it is".

 

[sidewinder22]

My power is now better than ever

Been meaning to tell you that I noticed your form really improved in the windmill. :thmbup:

 

[RFrance]

Hopefully this makes some sense. IMO...

Downshift and vertical shift are really the same thing except down is only describing the downward motion. Vertical shift describes both the upward and downward motion ...

I must be learning. I understood all of that on the first read through. I've got a strong science background but very little sports background. Knowing the why of how it works reinforces the need for the drills and how they they are related to the throw. It just takes tons of practice with focus to make it work. Excellant job explaining SW.

 

[Frisbee-Hanski]

Mike Moser and vertical shift:
https://youtu.be/QbfXSW0TAMg?t=670

 

[timothy42b]

So we should be shifting 20-30 degrees to the left. Is this why our plant foot is a foot or a foot and half higher than our left foot? Are we striding forward/target ward or stride more to the left? How do we achieve this 20-30 shift to the left?

So, rather than standing closed (shoulders in line with target but front foot forward of rear foot, both feet 90 degrees to target) we now end up standing neutral (shoulders lined up 30 degrees left, feet perpendicular to the new line)?

 

[sidewinder22]

Mike Moser and vertical shift:
https://youtu.be/QbfXSW0TAMg?t=670

Vertical and Diagonal. The Moser two-hop is great for learning balance and rhythm, you will fail miserably when you are off balance hopping off the rear foot, so you should learn quickly how stay more forward balanced and in rhythm. It's not ideal form as it restricts the body from turning further back, but it's still effortless and can throw decently far. Ulibarri used to throw that way too and he was still able to bomb, but also young, athletic and flexible.




Steve Brinster IMO has the best overall form, he throws so far and effortless for his size and always keeps his body and the disc on plane. After Brinster I'd say Ken Jarvis, and then GG and Paige Pierce(IMO the full rear arm chop back is more powerful, but also harder on the body). A lot of people don't realize how crazy athletic GG is he almost threw over the usdgc pond lefty and threw a putter over it and then did a handspring tumble backflip.

HUB and I were talking awhile ago and he brought up the Brachistochrone Curve and I nicknamed it the Brinsterochrone Curve. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brachistochrone_curve

CCDG marveling on Brinster:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18H5DfX6F8Q#t=9m50s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7xnHJWk-hQ#t=13m25s

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

Timothy, I'm not sure that I see a difference between the two... watching Simon here, that's exactly what the shift feels like to me. My shift is noticeably left of my target, and the momentum is no longer meant to carry the disc targetward. The momentum drives the arc open, so I'm not exactly sure how to answer your question.

 

[Lumberjack504]

Awesome stuff, guys. I love how we're finding new ways to break these concepts down and explain in ways that are more palatable to a wider audience (laypeople).

Anyways, couple questions for SW.

When you hop you create more weight and dynamically change your weight massively, going from weightless in free fall to sudden impact weighing several times your static body weight so there is a lot of force being generated effortlessly from the extra acceleration of gravity in the impact and you can transfer that through your body posture to the arm/disc.

This is a physics question, and I totally believe what you're saying, I just don't quite understand it. If F=MA, which it certainly does, and the measured acceleration of gravity is -9.81m/(s^2), how does hopping increase gravity's acceleration factor applied to our mass (which stays constant)? In other words, does free-fall increase or multiply the acceleration factor to our mass vs. just standing on the ground? I recall that X and Y direction are independent of each other in projectile dynamics, but I'm not sure what happens to the negative Y direction (downwards) acceleration after an object (our mass) has hit its upward apex and is now falling. Is it accelerating faster than the pull of gravity? Is it a function of the upwards acceleration before it hits its apex and starts falling?

To convert horizontal motion into weight/force requires more work and is very inefficient and not natural to the body. This creates a lot torque through the leg/knee. The more horizontal you shift the more you need your foot to pivot and earlier it needs to pivot, when it pivots during the swing it's technically spinning out of leverage. The knee is not designed to move horizontally, but it is designed to move vertically and so you don't need the foot to pivot as much while generating equal or more force. Vertically this also provides your front foot a more stable platform or fulcrum to leverage the swing from and transfer more force.

Do you actively pump/extend the plant leg coming into the hit?

 

[sidewinder22]

1. This is a physics question, and I totally believe what you're saying, I just don't quite understand it. If F=MA, which it certainly does, and the measured acceleration of gravity is -9.81m/(s^2), how does hopping increase gravity's acceleration factor applied to our mass (which stays constant)? In other words, does free-fall increase or multiply the acceleration factor to our mass vs. just standing on the ground? I recall that X and Y direction are independent of each other in projectile dynamics, but I'm not sure what happens to the negative Y direction (downwards) acceleration after an object (our mass) has hit its upward apex and is now falling. Is it accelerating faster than the pull of gravity? Is it a function of the upwards acceleration before it hits its apex and starts falling?



2. Do you actively pump/extend the plant leg coming into the hit?

1. Distance/time dropped is squared... 9.81m/s^2 is meters per second per second. Let's just round off numbers and ignore air resistance for simplicity and say your static weight is 100lbs, and gravity is 10m/s^2, so your mass is not moving distance/time, so it is about 10kg = 100lbs divided by 10m/s^1.

If you drop for 1 second, your dynamic weight becomes 1,000lbs = 10kg x 10m/s(Gravity) x 10m/s(1 Gravity second). You won't drop 1 second though, but some of the horizontal momentum also is transformed through the bracing. IIRC Markus Kallstrom was measured on a force plate to have close to 1000lbs on his front foot during the swing.



2. Absolutely, but it's a smooth rhythmic extension, not a jerk. Otherwise you would be collapsing into the ground. Just to standstill upright and static without moving around you are actively extending your leg/legs. You may even appear to be collapsing while you are actively extending or trying to extend to break your fall because gravity is always accelerating you downward and then add in that extra acceleration from falling and you have to generate even more force to maintain some semblance of upright balance.

 

[Lumberjack504]

1. Distance/time dropped is squared... 9.81m/s^2 is meters per second per second. Let's just round off numbers and ignore air resistance for simplicity and say your static weight is 100lbs, and gravity is 10m/s^2, so your mass is not moving distance/time, so it is about 10kg = 100lbs divided by 10m/s^1.

If you drop for 1 second, your dynamic weight becomes 1,000lbs = 10kg x 10m/s(Gravity) x 10m/s(1 Gravity second). You won't drop 1 second though, but some of the horizontal momentum also is transformed through the bracing. IIRC Markus Kallstrom was measured on a force plate to have close to 1000lbs on his front foot during the swing.



2. Absolutely, but it's a smooth rhythmic extension, not a jerk. Otherwise you would be collapsing into the ground. Just to standstill upright and static without moving around you are actively extending your leg/legs. You may even appear to be collapsing while you are actively extending or trying to extend to break your fall because gravity is always accelerating you downward and then add in that extra acceleration from falling and you have to generate even more force to maintain some semblance of upright balance.

Ah, I think I see. The m/s units cancel to leave us with 100kg x 10 x 10?

 

[PWaggoner]

I'm so fkin confused anymore.

 

[sidewinder22]

Ah, I think I see. The m/s units cancel to leave us with 100kg x 10 x 10?

Not sure where you are getting 100kg from?

Static weight/force of 100lbs = 10kg mass x gravity(10m/s^2, but practically 10m/s^1). There is no distance/time traveled, so there is nothing to square so it's simply 100lbs = 10kg x 10m/s.

Dynamic weight/force of 1000lbs = 10kg mass x gravity(10m/s^2). There is 1 second of distance/time travel so acceleration of gravity is squared.... 1000lbs = 10kg x 10m/s x 10m/s.

If you travel 2 seconds you get 10,000lbs = 10kg x 10m/s x 10m/s x 10m/s.

 

[sidewinder22]

I'm so fkin confused anymore.

Bring a calculator!

J/k, don't worry about the maths. Just hop and toss something heavy fluidly. It's in there like Prego!

 

[slowplastic]

So, rather than standing closed (shoulders in line with target but front foot forward of rear foot, both feet 90 degrees to target) we now end up standing neutral (shoulders lined up 30 degrees left, feet perpendicular to the new line)?

From what I've been feeling lately, and has been helping my balance immensely is yes...I am standing neutral and in-line but this is roughly 30ish degrees closed of the intended release line. Shoulders are kind of irrelevant as they turn throughout the shot.

Think of a baseball batter...they stand neutral/in line and parallel to the pitcher. They stride straight along this line. But their power zone is like 30 degrees closed, they will pull it to left center for a righty batter.

So stand balanced, shift balanced, and let the disc "grip lock behind you" down the line.

To someone else it'll look like you're planting way offset/closed and landing with the plant leg closed. To you it'll feel like you're striding leftward but in balance and planting somewhat neutral relative to your own stance.

 

[slowplastic]

This is a physics question, and I totally believe what you're saying, I just don't quite understand it. If F=MA, which it certainly does, and the measured acceleration of gravity is -9.81m/(s^2), how does hopping increase gravity's acceleration factor applied to our mass (which stays constant)? In other words, does free-fall increase or multiply the acceleration factor to our mass vs. just standing on the ground? I recall that X and Y direction are independent of each other in projectile dynamics, but I'm not sure what happens to the negative Y direction (downwards) acceleration after an object (our mass) has hit its upward apex and is now falling. Is it accelerating faster than the pull of gravity? Is it a function of the upwards acceleration before it hits its apex and starts falling?

Think in terms of momentum, p = mv. The velocity we are discussing will be caused in the vertical axis by gravity, so the longer distance you allow gravity to act the larger the velocity. Then when you catch this higher velocity on the ground reaction/brace, the momentum will be higher.