Shifting correctly makes bracing easy

[Lumberjack504]

Not sure where you are getting 100kg from?

Static weight/force of 100lbs = 10kg mass x gravity(10m/s^2, but practically 10m/s^1). There is no distance/time traveled, so there is nothing to square so it's simply 100lbs = 10kg x 10m/s.

Dynamic weight/force of 1000lbs = 10kg mass x gravity(10m/s^2). There is 1 second of distance/time travel so acceleration of gravity is squared.... 1000lbs = 10kg x 10m/s x 10m/s.

If you travel 2 seconds you get 10,000lbs = 10kg x 10m/s x 10m/s x 10m/s.

That should've read 10kg, but I'm pickin up what you're puttin down.

 

[slowplastic]

^There are pounds and kg in the same equation guys...just that alone makes me head hurt and not want to think about it.

All it is, is:

v = g*t where g is constant as we're on earth.

Then p = mv where m is constant because you don't get fatter during a shot. That's after the round.

Tippy toes to big drop to plant = bigger t for gravity to drop you, bigger t = bigger v, then bigger v = bigger p. And p is momentum.

Then a more sudden brace/catch will lead to greater impulse, which is change in momentum over time. Rise up/pump the ground as SW always talks about is an even bigger change in v.

 

[Lumberjack504]

^There are pounds and kg in the same equation guys...just that alone makes me head hurt and not want to think about it.

All it is, is:

v = g*t where g is constant as we're on earth.

Then p = mv where m is constant because you don't get fatter during a shot. That's after the round.

Tippy toes to big drop to plant = bigger t for gravity to drop you, bigger t = bigger v, then bigger v = bigger p. And p is momentum.

Then a more sudden brace/catch will lead to greater impulse, which is change in momentum over time. Rise up/pump the ground as SW always talks about is an even bigger change in v.

Haha sorry bro. One must mind his Newtons!

This is nice and simple and, like everything physics, makes sense!

 

[UhhNegative]

But it's not just gravity dropping you, if you are "crushing the can" you are adding to gravity. Or at least, that's what it seems like when you stomp the ground. Maybe its simply "not resisting gravity", but either way it's like pumping a swing to swing faster.

No physics explanation really necessary: what would give the highest peak reading on a scale: 1) standing on it 2) stepping on to it 3) stomping on it 4) jumping up into the air and then stomping on it

 

[slowplastic]

But it's not just gravity dropping you, if you are "crushing the can" you are adding to gravity. Or at least, that's what it seems like when you stomp the ground. Maybe its simply "not resisting gravity", but either way it's like pumping a swing to swing faster.

No physics explanation really necessary: what would give the highest peak reading on a scale: 1) standing on it 2) stepping on to it 3) stomping on it 4) jumping up into the air and then stomping on it

The concept is what matters, the physics part is just for the few interested. Others can obviously skip it. You're right though, you're pumping to increase the change.

Gravity is the force we feel pulling us to the ground. It is constant, we can't fall any faster than gravity. So when you stomp on something, or rather when you are landing into the plant and then extending to "rise up" you are giving yourself an upward velocity relative to the ground. So you went from dropping toward the ground from your tippy toe X-step, a negative velocity, to landing on the ground and having your mass rise up a bit from extending, so a positive velocity. This is a greater change than just dropping to the ground and catching yourself, so from a negative velocity then to zero. Just like -1 to 0 is a change of 1, but -1 to +1 is a change of 2.

The larger the change in velocity, the larger the change in momentum. So extending upward/applying "too much" force through the ground will increase your momentum change.

 

[sidewinder22]

But it's not just gravity dropping you, if you are "crushing the can" you are adding to gravity. Or at least, that's what it seems like when you stomp the ground. Maybe its simply "not resisting gravity", but either way it's like pumping a swing to swing faster.

No physics explanation really necessary: what would give the highest peak reading on a scale: 1) standing on it 2) stepping on to it 3) stomping on it 4) jumping up into the air and then stomping on it

Gravity is the force we feel pulling us to the ground. It is constant, we can't fall any faster than gravity. So when you stomp on something, or rather when you are landing into the plant and then extending to "rise up" you are giving yourself an upward velocity relative to the ground. So you went from dropping toward the ground from your tippy toe X-step, a negative velocity, to landing on the ground and having your mass rise up a bit from extending, so a positive velocity. This is a greater change than just dropping to the ground and catching yourself, so from a negative velocity then to zero. Just like -1 to 0 is a change of 1, but -1 to +1 is a change of 2.

The larger the change in velocity, the larger the change in momentum. So extending upward/applying "too much" force through the ground will increase your momentum change.

Stomping and Crushing are two different things. Gravity is what should be crushing the can, your heel dropping or falling to the ground after the toes plant.

A Stomp is flat footed jerk that accelerates your leg faster than gravity and separates your leg/weight from the rest of you body/weight and gravity. It might produce a peak instantaneous force, but that is not what you want. It causes a jerk reaction/recoil where the foot pops off the ground and everything is not working together anymore and not crushing the can all the way through the finish.

A Crush is smooth and athletic landing on toes first, then dropping the heel with gravity and all your weight. Like a skater dropping down a half-pipe and pumping up the other side. You want to keep gravity and your weight/foot pinning or crushing the can all the way through the finish position with those G-forces, standing in complete balance on the front leg and still crushing it. You don't want to extend too fast and jump off the can or half pipe, but you extend your posture in rhythm to maintain a stable foot/crush start of the swing to finish - one leg drill. You need to pump your leg in tune/rhythm to gravity to pump the swing. You also need to abandon the arm/disc away to gravity in the backswing.

 

[slowplastic]

A Stomp is flat footed jerk that accelerates your leg faster than gravity and separates your leg/weight from the rest of you body/weight and gravity. It might produce a peak instantaneous force, but that is not what you want. It causes a jerk reaction/recoil where the foot pops off the ground and everything is not working together anymore and not crushing the can all the way through the finish.

A Crush is smooth and athletic landing on toes first, then dropping the heel with gravity and all your weight.

Exactly how I was thinking...let gravity be the only acceleration and maximize it by having more height to drop. I kind of ignored the "stomp" wording and focused on the upward force from the plant.

You need to pump your leg in tune/rhythm to gravity to pump the swing. You also need to abandon the arm/disc away to gravity in the backswing.

This is probably where I was incorrect/too simple without actually thinking about the swing application. The point of the pump isn't necessarily to get a maximum momentum change/impulse at point of ground contact...it's done rhythmically to clear the weight and maximize leverage through the body and ground continually during the swing. Sound correct?

 

[art_vandelay]

You guys are nerds.

 

[sidewinder22]

This is probably where I was incorrect/too simple without actually thinking about the swing application. The point of the pump isn't necessarily to get a maximum momentum change/impulse at point of ground contact...it's done rhythmically to clear the weight and maximize leverage through the body and ground continually during the swing. Sound correct?

Correct, you need to smoothly ride your Inertial Wave like the skater in half pipe one side to the other side throughout the swing start to finish without falling off balance.

 

[Discusted]

Hopefully this makes some sense. IMO...

Downshift and vertical shift are really the same thing except down is only describing the downward motion. Vertical shift describes both the upward and downward motion although I prefer to call it Compression as a more encompassing conceptual term. You hop and compress against the ground like a spring and generate more efficient force(G-forces) using the acceleration of gravity in the vertical plane. So if you use your body as the fulcrum and arm/disc like a ball on a string you can really zing the ball/disc away in a direction you want effortlessly just by using the free fall acceleration gravity and moving your whole body/arm in a certain rhythmic way. With a literal ball on string you can feel how you need to move/change the acceleration/direction of your wrist to zing the ball on string/weight to a target of your choosing.

Moe Norman called it the Vertical Drop and Horizontal Tug. Mike Maves calls it Compression in "the move", and so does Shawn Clement, he also describes it as Centripetal Pump/standing on a swing and pumping the swing. It is also referred to as Parametric Acceleration.

Most people think of weightshift as only in the 2D horizontal plane from one foot to the other foot, IMO this is incorrect thinking. Gravity is what gives you weight as a scale reads the force created with your mass accelerated by gravity. Force is measured by weight. When you hop you create more weight and dynamically change your weight massively, going from weightless in free fall to sudden impact weighing several times your static body weight so there is a lot of force being generated effortlessly from the extra acceleration of gravity in the impact and you can transfer that through your body posture to the arm/disc.

To convert horizontal motion into weight/force requires more work and is very inefficient and not natural to the body. This creates a lot torque through the leg/knee. The more horizontal you shift the more you need your foot to pivot and earlier it needs to pivot, when it pivots during the swing it's technically spinning out of leverage. The knee is not designed to move horizontally, but it is designed to move vertically and so you don't need the foot to pivot as much while generating equal or more force. Vertically this also provides your front foot a more stable platform or fulcrum to leverage the swing from and transfer more force.

Parametric Acceleration explaining how the vertical component keeps the tip of pendulum swinging flat through the hit:
https://www.adamyounggolf.com/low-point-and-parametric-acceleration/

Mike Maves starts off talking about the "Windmill Drill" or he calls it the Travino Drill which I've referred to as it in the past. Windmill is just the reverse Feldy backswing, lots of players do this forehand(McBeth, Lizotte, Jenkins), and you can do it backhand. Maves also talks about the Vertical Drop Horizontal Tug and Compression. Everything he says in here is spot on, even when he talks about people thinking it's quackery, but it really is the simplest thing in the world when you understand it. I had to watch it about 1000 times to really understand it. Most people just watch it once or can't stand the other guy talking, but I love it, Mike's answers to his questions are so spot on and they are the same questions I get from people on here, he is asking the wrong questions, so Mike responds "but anyway, so what it is".

Wow what a great reply. Took me awhile to finally digest it all. The aha moment was in that link you sent me. This picture:

So in this picture I'm guessing end of the black line in Disc golf would be our elbow joint? Meaning if we pull UP on the shoulder (a locked shoulder, right?) It should help sling the elbow forward. I can see how this would add a lot of power which would be generated I guess with the decompression and compression of the legs and knees?

Can you tell me exactly where compression and then decompression happens in the Disc Golf swing? Say for someone doing a one step throw. Are you compressing at the reachback? pull through?

Im guessing you decompress on top of your plant foot once the heel has been dropped (can has been crushed). Is this correct thinking?

And one other question. This means that the beginning of arc has to be falling downwards with the force of gravity pull it down at some point in the throw right? Does this mean the arc needs to point somewhat down when it starts?

 

[sidewinder22]

Wow what a great reply. Took me awhile to finally digest it all. The aha moment was in that link you sent me. This picture:

1. So in this picture I'm guessing end of the black line in Disc golf would be our elbow joint? Meaning if we pull UP on the shoulder (a locked shoulder, right?) It should help sling the elbow forward. I can see how this would add a lot of power which would be generated I guess with the decompression and compression of the legs and knees?

2. Can you tell me exactly where compression and then decompression happens in the Disc Golf swing? Say for someone doing a one step throw. Are you compressing at the reachback? pull through?

3. Im guessing you decompress on top of your plant foot once the heel has been dropped (can has been crushed). Is this correct thinking?

4. And one other question. This means that the beginning of arc has to be falling downwards with the force of gravity pull it down at some point in the throw right? Does this mean the arc needs to point somewhat down when it starts?

1. Correct.

2. Compression on the front leg initiates the forward swing. Crush the Can then swing. You should still be in compression/crushing the can into the finish. You can be extending while still compressing or increasing compression. Backswing should be uncompressed extended/tall/airborne, transition you get shorter and start to compress.

3. You shouldn't fully decompress until after the finish. Your foot can pivot to release the horizontal torque while still being vertically compressed.

4. Yep, your Center of Gravity and shoulder arc should look a like skater half pipe during the swing. Bending the elbow keeps the disc arc flatter.

Note how the red Brinsterochrone Curve is below the horizontal or compressed until the end.

 

[rhatton1]

You hop and compress against the ground like a spring and generate more efficient force(G-forces)

From here on in Disc golf to be known as Double G-Force....

 

[Bradley Walker]

A rotational release will center itself over the lead hip joint. A linear one will not.

 

[Discusted]

1. Correct.

2. Compression on the front leg initiates the forward swing. Crush the Can then swing. You should still be in compression/crushing the can into the finish. You can be extending while still compressing or increasing compression. Backswing should be uncompressed extended/tall/airborne, transition you get shorter and start to compress.

3. You shouldn't fully decompress until after the finish. Your foot can pivot to release the horizontal torque while still being vertically compressed.

4. Yep, your Center of Gravity and shoulder arc should look a like skater half pipe during the swing. Bending the elbow keeps the disc arc flatter.

Note how the red Brinsterochrone Curve is below the horizontal or compressed until the end.

2. Hmm this is tough for me to understand, if we are compressed the whole time through follow through where does that upward tug of the elbow joint happens. How I'm imagining it is that when you crush the can, you compress, then from there you decompress or move upwards to create that upward tug on the elbow joint to help it sling out.

4. Hmm skater half pipe, interesting, so I get how that would work with vertical shift/ compression, you need some gravity to help it sling, but what if you were doing a straight shot or any hyzer angle, wouldn't the arm sit up higher in a way where you wouldn't get the benefit of gravity and that upward tug? So like in a stick golf swing you always see the club head starting high in that reach back and falling downwards in the arc with gravity then tugging upwards to create the parametric acceleration. Aren't some swing angles level or even like a rainbow shape for any hyzer as opposed to the half pipe looking arc of a hyzer?

 

[sidewinder22]

2. Hmm this is tough for me to understand, if we are compressed the whole time through follow through where does that upward tug of the elbow joint happens. How I'm imagining it is that when you crush the can, you compress, then from there you decompress or move upwards to create that upward tug on the elbow joint to help it sling out.

4. Hmm skater half pipe, interesting, so I get how that would work with vertical shift/ compression, you need some gravity to help it sling, but what if you were doing a straight shot or any hyzer angle, wouldn't the arm sit up higher in a way where you wouldn't get the benefit of gravity and that upward tug? So like in a stick golf swing you always see the club head starting high in that reach back and falling downwards in the arc with gravity then tugging upwards to create the parametric acceleration. Aren't some swing angles level or even like a rainbow shape for any hyzer as opposed to the half pipe looking arc of a hyzer?

I think you missed reading this part...
2. You can be extending while still compressing or increasing compression [against the ground].

4. You can still convert gravitational acceleration through the body into centripetal force on any swing plane angle by changing your balance/tilted spiral. Watch how Brinster throws his "flat" and roller shots:

 

[Tex1503]

https://youtu.be/KSKVvPNb4-w

 

[tonyroberts]

This is interesting and helpful. However the word "right" in the title had me confused. I think you mean "correctly." I was trying to figure out how you righties were doing this shift to the right of the intended line. That seemed to be more appropriate for lefties.

 

[RFrance]

This is interesting and helpful. However the word "right" in the title had me confused. I think you mean "correctly."

That sure makes a lot more sense. I couldn't figure it out. We are now talking about a diagonal stance to the left but how do we shift to the right, wth? Now I understand. Shift correctly.

 

[Frisbee-Hanski]

Thank you, HUB, for your windmill drill and this thread! I think this is highly important topic.

 

[HyzerUniBomber]

https://youtu.be/KSKVvPNb4-w

Yes! Yes! Yes! Great explanation of my long rambling with a Sw22 hammer toss! It's awesome to see it tested for power, and as he's explaining how it "feels powerful " to shift forward, that's what a targetward shift feels like... it's not as powerful.