Shifting correctly makes bracing easy

[Discusted]

I think of compression as a scale reading your weight against the ground. Compressing the scale as you extend. The scale doesn't decompress until you extend and start going airborne.

By that definition wouldn't compression just happen standing there? No bending of the knees or extending of the knees needed. The scale will always be "compressed" as long as you are standing on it.

 

[sidewinder22]

By that definition wouldn't compression just happen standing there? No bending of the knees or extending of the knees needed. The scale will always be "compressed" as long as you are standing on it.

Standing = 1G of compression. You are extending your legs just to stand upright, otherwise you will collapse into the ground due to gravity.

 

[Discusted]

Question regarding the shift left of target instead of targetward: So to accomplish this shift, would essentially a staggered diagonal foot position after plant accomplish this? Just plant your front foot in a diagonal line to your back foot is whats needed to create this leftward shift?

 

[sidewinder22]

Question regarding the shift left of target instead of targetward: So to accomplish this shift, would essentially a staggered diagonal foot position after plant accomplish this? Just plant your front foot in a diagonal line to your back foot is whats needed to create this leftward shift?

 

[slowplastic]

Question regarding the shift left of target instead of targetward: So to accomplish this shift, would essentially a staggered diagonal foot position after plant accomplish this? Just plant your front foot in a diagonal line to your back foot is whats needed to create this leftward shift?

Get to your front foot in balance, don't cross way left at the end if you were just prior telling your momentum to go "straight".

Watch how McBeth strides continually toward the left corner of the teebox...there isn't a sudden leftward step. And the disc is released right of this direction naturally.

So was he striding left and releasing straight? Or was he striding straight and releasing behind him? Same thing, depends on perspective.

 

[Discusted]

Standing = 1G of compression. You are extending your legs just to stand upright, otherwise you will collapse into the ground due to gravity.

Hmm k that makes sense. So essentially standing there you putting force into the ground. And therefore if you jumped into that standing position you'd put more force into the ground. Now kind of where I'm not understanding parametric acceleration is going back to this picture:

[/IMG]

So when you jump onto you plant toe, then crush the can, your body is continually going into the ground, and your body height should be lowering through this motion. Then what it sounds like is you throw as your body is lowering. But in that pic that shows parametric acceleration, the end of the black arrow would be your elbow joint, and the green line would be the upward motion of your locked shoulder/body to get that black arrow to whip with extra acceleration. So this means to me we need to crush the can than stand up to get that vertical movement to create that whip right?

 

[Discusted]

I feel in my throw my back hip rotates around the front hip and then my rear foot ends up coming around infront of my plant foot. In watching tourney coverage I notice the pros do this sometimes too, like sometimes that back foot isn't just raised up on its toes and staying behind the front foot/hip but sometimes comes around. So I'm confused as to whats the right way, it looks good to have that bowler finish, but sometimes I see pros rotate all the way around aand instead of finishing with one foot in the air as a counterbalance, they just come all the way around and land the rear foot in front of the plant foot.

To get that rear foot to come up and stay behind instead of whip all the way around, I;m guessing you need to make sure to pop that front hip upwards? (Feldberg hip thrust motion?)

 

[Discusted]

Get to your front foot in balance, don't cross way left at the end if you were just prior telling your momentum to go "straight".

Watch how McBeth strides continually toward the left corner of the teebox...there isn't a sudden leftward step. And the disc is released right of this direction naturally.

So was he striding left and releasing straight? Or was he striding straight and releasing behind him? Same thing, depends on perspective.

Hmm can definitely see a leftward stride here. I'm at a point in my throw where I've just graduated from stand stills to one steps. So I just do one leftward step at the moment and I focus on making sure my center of gravity (an upright head over spine over pelvis) moves diagonally from my back foot to my planted front foot. Does this sound like a good way to work on this?

Also, I'm a little confused about just how much weight should be shifted from back to front foot. In a Schusterick driving video he said even though he plants his front toe (when reachback is at max) his weight is still predominantly on the back foot. Then I guess he crushes the can and that starts moving the weight forward. Now in practice this feels very weird, what feels more natural and what looks like what's happening in that 4x Slow Mo Pro Drive video is that when the plant toe lands its like the weight is centered between back and front foot moreso than mostly on that back foot like Schusterick says. Like pause the video when the plant toe lands, and it looks like the center of gravity is exactly in the middle between plant and rear foot. Which would you say is the correct way?

 

[sidewinder22]

1. So when you jump onto you plant toe, then crush the can, your body is continually going into the ground, and your body height should be lowering through this motion. Then what it sounds like is you throw as your body is lowering.

2. But in that pic that shows parametric acceleration, the end of the black arrow would be your elbow joint, and the green line would be the upward motion of your locked shoulder/body to get that black arrow to whip with extra acceleration. So this means to me we need to crush the can than stand up to get that vertical movement to create that whip right?

1. Depends on your trajectory(upward/downward) and swing plane(hyzer/anhyzer) and balance/posture/tilt. Shots with upward trajectory you should start rising before the disc gets to your Center of Gravity. In pic below you can see Brinster's low point is well before disc gets to his CoG, basically max reachback with can crushed, then starts rising throughout the swing.

2. Black arrow? I only see red and green arrows. I think of the green arrow as the front hip/shoulder going up and rear hip/shoulder counterweights down. The red arrow is the vector of the pendulum weight at that point. The pendulum there is with the elbow extended like Feldberg, so there should be a hinge in the black line if the elbow bends.

It can also be horizontal or both in 3-Dimension(actually is tilted spiral). Greater change of direction/acceleration on fulcrum = exponentially increasing end lever force/speed/whip.

 

[sidewinder22]

I feel in my throw my back hip rotates around the front hip and then my rear foot ends up coming around infront of my plant foot. In watching tourney coverage I notice the pros do this sometimes too, like sometimes that back foot isn't just raised up on its toes and staying behind the front foot/hip but sometimes comes around. So I'm confused as to whats the right way, it looks good to have that bowler finish, but sometimes I see pros rotate all the way around aand instead of finishing with one foot in the air as a counterbalance, they just come all the way around and land the rear foot in front of the plant foot.

To get that rear foot to come up and stay behind instead of whip all the way around, I;m guessing you need to make sure to pop that front hip upwards? (Feldberg hip thrust motion?)

What you are seeing is leftover momentum after they recoil from that golf/hockey or bowler finish position pulling their CoG to the apex. How much of that momentum remaining depends a lot on your balance(maintained)/posture/shot type, how fast you are moving into the throw, and how efficiently or inefficiently you transfer that momentum to the disc. Not sure I would say to pop up(or jerk) on the front hip, but it should be smooth fluid quick change of direction.

Hershyzer/wall is the same thing Feldy shows, but posture is tilted more so it's a hockey/bowler leg finish position, then the feet should ideally finish together like he shows, like Wiggins pic above with Olympic Hammer Thrower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s

Zdeno Chara vs Feldberg and Jesper Lundmark:

It's all the same move(golf/hockey/bowling) but what you will end up looking like depends on your balance/posture and shot type. My best throws where I know a smashed everything into the disc, I look and feel just like Ken Jarvis in the finish, all momentum transferred to disc behind front leg instead of wasted momentum in followthrough around the front leg. Ken held distance record with a Teebird @ 810'!!!:


Jamie Sadlowski vs Ken Jarvis:

Lizotte vs bowler:

 

[sidewinder22]

Hmm can definitely see a leftward stride here. I'm at a point in my throw where I've just graduated from stand stills to one steps. So I just do one leftward step at the moment and I focus on making sure my center of gravity (an upright head over spine over pelvis) moves diagonally from my back foot to my planted front foot. Does this sound like a good way to work on this?

Also, I'm a little confused about just how much weight should be shifted from back to front foot. In a Schusterick driving video he said even though he plants his front toe (when reachback is at max) his weight is still predominantly on the back foot. Then I guess he crushes the can and that starts moving the weight forward. Now in practice this feels very weird, what feels more natural and what looks like what's happening in that 4x Slow Mo Pro Drive video is that when the plant toe lands its like the weight is centered between back and front foot moreso than mostly on that back foot like Schusterick says. Like pause the video when the plant toe lands, and it looks like the center of gravity is exactly in the middle between plant and rear foot. Which would you say is the correct way?

It's much easier to only think about weight as a scale reading under each foot. Center of gravity is your balance, not your weight. So when you hop airborne, your CoG is centered between your feet, but both your feet are weightless. Land the rear foot, and it becomes weighted, so 100% of your weight distribution reading is on rear foot anywhere from 1-500lbs. The rear foot should start deweighting as the front foot starts weighting and when the front heel lands like at least 60% or more of your weight distribution should be on the front foot. You might read something like 300lbs on the front foot, and 100lbs on the rear foot. Or it could even be 100% weight on the front foot as front heel plants like Wiggins...

 

[slowplastic]

Hmm can definitely see a leftward stride here. I'm at a point in my throw where I've just graduated from stand stills to one steps. So I just do one leftward step at the moment and I focus on making sure my center of gravity (an upright head over spine over pelvis) moves diagonally from my back foot to my planted front foot. Does this sound like a good way to work on this?

Also, I'm a little confused about just how much weight should be shifted from back to front foot. In a Schusterick driving video he said even though he plants his front toe (when reachback is at max) his weight is still predominantly on the back foot. Then I guess he crushes the can and that starts moving the weight forward. Now in practice this feels very weird, what feels more natural and what looks like what's happening in that 4x Slow Mo Pro Drive video is that when the plant toe lands its like the weight is centered between back and front foot moreso than mostly on that back foot like Schusterick says. Like pause the video when the plant toe lands, and it looks like the center of gravity is exactly in the middle between plant and rear foot. Which would you say is the correct way?

Yeah, in one step just think "back foot to front foot". I would say set up diagonally before the throw, and then just think stride "straight" relative to that setup. Do not stride more closed...just stride aligned and let the disc go where it wants. Basically stay in balance, any variation or drift will make it harder to catch your weight right.

The Schusterick driving video has caused me as many problems as it has helped me. He's not saying wrong things really, just his form is so unique and stretched out that what he seems to emphasize can put you into weird positions or make you think the wrong things are what to really focus on.

Instead of turning way back, stretching the plant leg forward, and then trying to shift all that weight forward...which is what I thought I was supposed to do...turn/load back enough up on the rear leg, get ready to be "at the plant" location with your toes and body above, and drop down with gravity for the weight shift.

As far as the follow through with rear leg, it's as SW explained. If your rear leg is following through as you're throwing, then you're likely shifting in front and not braced right or shifting your weight effectively. The pro's all have that rear leg counter or impact, then the momentum of the follow through pulls the leg around after the recoil.

 

[Discusted]

Yeah, in one step just think "back foot to front foot". I would say set up diagonally before the throw, and then just think stride "straight" relative to that setup. Do not stride more closed...just stride aligned and let the disc go where it wants. Basically stay in balance, any variation or drift will make it harder to catch your weight right.

The Schusterick driving video has caused me as many problems as it has helped me. He's not saying wrong things really, just his form is so unique and stretched out that what he seems to emphasize can put you into weird positions or make you think the wrong things are what to really focus on.

Instead of turning way back, stretching the plant leg forward, and then trying to shift all that weight forward...which is what I thought I was supposed to do...turn/load back enough up on the rear leg, get ready to be "at the plant" location with your toes and body above, and drop down with gravity for the weight shift.

As far as the follow through with rear leg, it's as SW explained. If your rear leg is following through as you're throwing, then you're likely shifting in front and not braced right or shifting your weight effectively. The pro's all have that rear leg counter or impact, then the momentum of the follow through pulls the leg around after the recoil.

Hmm okay I'll try this.

In the bolded above, is exactly what I took away from the Schusterick video as well. Especially the stretching plant leg forward part. It just feels so awkward and wrong.


What I do instead, is when I stride my head/body moves with the stride. When the plant toe lands I'm trying to get my head right in the middle between both feet. Then I crush that can and that starts the forward rotation. So I do this and yeh I seem to be swinging that back leg around as opposed to the swinging it into the plant leg like seen on the bowler finishes. I wonder if there's some mechanic I'm not doing correctly, possibly thinking I start the pull before crushing the can. Or I need to crush the can first then stand up that front leg, then pull.

 

[Discusted]

It's much easier to only think about weight as a scale reading under each foot. Center of gravity is your balance, not your weight. So when you hop airborne, your CoG is centered between your feet, but both your feet are weightless. Land the rear foot, and it becomes weighted, so 100% of your weight distribution reading is on rear foot anywhere from 1-500lbs. The rear foot should start deweighting as the front foot starts weighting and when the front heel lands like at least 60% or more of your weight distribution should be on the front foot. You might read something like 300lbs on the front foot, and 100lbs on the rear foot. Or it could even be 100% weight on the front foot as front heel plants like Wiggins...

Hmm that makes sense. How could weight be anywhere if it's not against the ground first. So on balance and where your COG is at, would you say that it's centered between front and back foot when the plant toe lands? Or should it be a bit further towards the front or back?

 

[slowplastic]

Hmm okay I'll try this.

In the bolded above, is exactly what I took away from the Schusterick video as well. Especially the stretching plant leg forward part. It just feels so awkward and wrong.


What I do instead, is when I stride my head/body moves with the stride. When the plant toe lands I'm trying to get my head right in the middle between both feet. Then I crush that can and that starts the forward rotation. So I do this and yeh I seem to be swinging that back leg around as opposed to the swinging it into the plant leg like seen on the bowler finishes. I wonder if there's some mechanic I'm not doing correctly, possibly thinking I start the pull before crushing the can. Or I need to crush the can first then stand up that front leg, then pull.

Get your body to where it should be before you crush. That way the weight is there or hovering above the plant, so you just use gravity to crush.

Don't have the weight way back, and try to get it part way forward and time it with the front foot. Instead feel like the weight is moving forward and getting to the right place in space and then catch yourself.

 

[sidewinder22]

Hmm that makes sense. How could weight be anywhere if it's not against the ground first. So on balance and where your COG is at, would you say that it's centered between front and back foot when the plant toe lands? Or should it be a bit further towards the front or back?

Right, in Reciprocating Dingle Arm I talk about how it is kind of weird to think about where your weight is during the throw, much easier to think about staying dynamically balanced. Like a skier in moguls or slalom, if you look at just a static picture, they appear to be off balance or leaning to one side, but they are in perfect dynamic upright balance to their momentum. When you crush the can your dynamical balance is totally on the front leg. I imagine balance as a vector going down right through my center of gravity like the imagine below of the red arrow resultant force, or the pool cue stick in Turbo Encabulator. My balance shifts back and forth dynamically from one foot to the other foot.

I like to imagine gravity backwards from how most people think, so my mass is pulling the earth to my center, my feet/legs need to prevent earth from crushing me. When I jump, I'm pushing the entire earth away from me and it's coming back to me. I'm using the weight of the whole world to power the throw, not really my weight or just my weight. Technically gravity is the attraction between two masses so it does actually go both ways, but one mass is much larger than the other and dominates the reciprocal force or attraction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pkfJtVq-8#t=4m06s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=1m14s

 

[drk_evns]

What you are seeing is leftover momentum after they recoil from that golf/hockey or bowler finish position pulling their CoG to the apex. How much of that momentum remaining depends a lot on your balance(maintained)/posture/shot type, how fast you are moving into the throw, and how efficiently or inefficiently you transfer that momentum to the disc. Not sure I would say to pop up(or jerk) on the front hip, but it should be smooth fluid quick change of direction.

Hershyzer/wall is the same thing Feldy shows, but posture is tilted more so it's a hockey/bowler leg finish position, then the feet should ideally finish together like he shows, like Wiggins pic above with Olympic Hammer Thrower.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s

Zdeno Chara vs Feldberg and Jesper Lundmark:

It's all the same move(golf/hockey/bowling) but what you will end up looking like depends on your balance/posture and shot type. My best throws where I know a smashed everything into the disc, I look and feel just like Ken Jarvis in the finish, all momentum transferred to disc behind front leg instead of wasted momentum in followthrough around the front leg. Ken held distance record with a Teebird @ 810'!!!:


Jamie Sadlowski vs Ken Jarvis:

Lizotte vs bowler:

This is one of my favorite posts ever.

It's also the perfect case study for why KJ Nybo's throw is so awesome (and why people think he has no follow through) – HE'S MORE EFFICIENT THAN MOST THROWERS!

 

[BuzzzChief]

That picture of Lizotte next to a bowler is really interesting when you think about the fact that it's a lefty bowler. The weight transfer is pretty much the same for throwing a heavy object (bowling ball) with you left hand, as throwing a disc backhand with your right hand. I never really thought of it that way.

If I pretend I'm bowling with my left hand, it puts me in pretty much the ideal position for a distance drive.

Definitely also makes me realize that I'm uncoiling my upper body too soon, and hanging out on the back foot for too long. No wonder I spin out/forward after big throws.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

That picture of Lizotte next to a bowler is really interesting when you think about the fact that it's a lefty bowler. The weight transfer is pretty much the same for throwing a heavy object (bowling ball) with you left hand, as throwing a disc backhand with your right hand. I never really thought of it that way.

If I pretend I'm bowling with my left hand, it puts me in pretty much the ideal position for a distance drive.

Definitely also makes me realize that I'm uncoiling my upper body too soon, and hanging out on the back foot for too long. No wonder I spin out/forward after big throws.

Yep... this has been a growing clarity point for me recently and I can see in some video. The telltale sign of having that rear leg whip around instead of ending up in the bowler position indicates both a lack of proper balance, shifting from in front instead of behind. It starts with the weight shift.
A big lightbulb went on for me trying to get my nephew to throw better, and I went to rely on his batting stance... and whoops he was taught to squish the bug... wow how bad that is, is so apparent for disc golf. just spinning in place with no weight transfer and no momentum target-ward. I have started to try and mimic getting into that hit position like a hockey slapshot, baseball swing, tennis backhand, breaking down a door... once it is apparent you can find it in so many more places even where you don't expect it. I can feel it perfectly in slow motion not throwing but have yet to translate it to a throw.

 

[sidewinder22]

That picture of Lizotte next to a bowler is really interesting when you think about the fact that it's a lefty bowler.

Fact - she's bowling righty, I mirrored the image.