"Simple Keys" to Disc Golf

[JR]

I am familiar with the poor student who thinks they know better issue. Iacas was one of them i do not know if he has learned later. He tried to apply golf anatomy to disc golf and when i said that no you do not have the posture thus head weight supported by neck and upper torso muscles in other throws than hyzers because of the little things called vertebrae he concluded that i do not know anything. And went on to say i give terrible advice and made personal attacks. My response was as it always is to that kind of people. It is just fine that you stand in the way of your own progress. People are free to choose what they listen to and what they drill and why. Sure there is plenty of bad info being passed around and there is no standardized form that is best for everyone. I just keep on spreading the info. It is up to the player to decide what they listen to and do.

My only agenda is to spread info so that people can learn and in order to help them to advance ask them to try everything to see how far they can go easily by finding out what works gor them in the short term first. Then seeing what works for them now and why observing their strong and weak points hopefully there is room for improvement. Identifying what could be changed for improvement dictates what should be drilled and how and then suggesting it is all i can do. I am not forcing anyone to do anything. The only thing i hope everyone would do is to use some sense in methods like determining what works and hopefully finding out why by testing what changes in distance, accuracy and repeatability between two different parts of the form. The rest is up to the player. People seem very resistant to use of even so obviously useful metrics. Their choice. One could argue that it is to the detriment of future players that ineffective training methods, false conclusions and data is being spread around. It is but who can censor that or teach everyone when many are not willing to listen? I will not fight windmills for long. If someone resists facts they deserve ignoring life is too short for trying to teach those who do not want to be taught. I have no illusions of available time i cannot teach everyone and it is better to teach those willing to do the heavy lifting than those wishing for silver bullets. Wishful thinkers...

 

[JR]

Hyzer there are drills on this forum already.

The guy in your video had his ball of the foot too low in the heel pivot so the right side of the shoe dragged and that trips him to the right in the follow through.

 

[Widdershins]

Some time ago the post above was offered then (evidently) completely ignored. Was this insultingly elementary offering by some self-important fool unworthy of consideration? On the other hand if we were to quiz those who are actually good at the skill of flinging plastic would we find any who have impressive scientific credentials or have authored a doctoral dissertation in throwing form? (Yes, Harvard University I would like to major in disc flight physics, where, pray tell is that department located?) Or even provide a cogent explanation of how to throw well? Do others on this forum find most explanations generally unintelligible?

Do not most players find what works for them then pass that on as gospel? If so, is this bad? Isn't this how you learned? Trial and error aided by a few tips from veterans?

As one of the admittedly lesser intellects inhabiting this website, I have noted that when I listen to the newest video of throwing brilliance I am left with more questions than answers.

 

[HyzerUniBomber1]

As one of the admittedly lesser intellects inhabiting this website, I have noted that when I listen to the newest video of throwing brilliance I am left with more questions than answers.

I often write about my simple mind. I feel like a glorified chimp, and my shoulder hair tells a frightening tail of similarity. Certain aspects of the backhand seen to be very easy to wrap my caveman brain around: smooth, balanced, confident.

But behind the curtain, the physics unfolds into a much more complex chunk of information. When I dig into the answers to questions like "why can I throw with slower hands, and get a longer throw" it sometimes helps me to a great degree, because I discover those much less intuitive lessons.

The great thing about it, is that while I'm sure I've unlocked some grand secret - I quickly realize that you guys already have a 4 page article and at least 3 threads that go 25 pages deep written about it!

Still, it is a combination of a Catholic up-bringing that needs to punish myself and a genuine enjoyment of solving counter-intuitive puzzles that keeps me going down the rabbit hole.

 

[rhatton2]

Do others on this forum find most explanations generally unintelligible?

Do not most players find what works for them then pass that on as gospel? If so, is this bad? Isn't this how you learned? Trial and error aided by a few tips from veterans?

As one of the admittedly lesser intellects inhabiting this website, I have noted that when I listen to the newest video of throwing brilliance I am left with more questions than answers.

In answer to your question, yes and no.

I've been following the site for years and as I have got better suddenly things that were unintelligible to me years ago make glaringly obvious sense as I experience it myself by repeatedly trying out different things. Some of Blakes and Bradley's and others drills have been superb in allowing me ways to work it out for myself.

There are many players (probably most top pros) who have never looked at form websites yet have gone out onto the field/course and effortlessly worked out how to throw distance world records or become world champs. Good for them.

they are an overwhelming minority of talented sportsmen and women who for whatever reason got it more intuitively than the rest of us Luddites. It has been incredibly frustrating for me as I have always found sport easy. All sports apart from Disc golf and golf. the pursuit of better form in one is helping hugely in the other though. I am sure that when Aaron Rodgers (who I recently discovered is a big golfer) first picked up a disc and threw a tomahawk it came pretty naturally to him. He's a big athletic guy, but he's also been coached on a micro level into how to get the greatest and most accurate shot making ability for an overhand throw, that coaching will be directly translatable to throwing a tomahawk.

Tiger Woods didn't get to be as good as he was by doing what worked for him with a couple of tips from other players on the pro tour. He had every aspect of his swing dissected on a micro level to make it as efficient as possible, it's still being dissected and worked on today despite having how many major wins behind him? Sports science has a great role to play in getting sprtsmen and women to their peak levels of ability. Sports science is exactly what it says. The use of science to take things down to the bare bones and make them more efficient.

what Blake and the others on this site have repeatedly tried to do is find different ways to break down the basics of form to a micro level and then try to find ways for all to learn them. This simple keys idea is another way of looking at this and another way of trying to find a uniform way of coaching across all styles. This forum has been in the quest for good form to be achieveable by all and it's a shame it has not been so active recently.

I personally hate that this is the main learning form at the moment:

"Do not most players find what works for them then pass that on as gospel? If so, is this bad? Isn't this how you learned? Trial and error aided by a few tips from veterans?"

Why? because I see the shockingly bad results of this type of passing on of "gospel" on a day to day basis on the course (of course there are good examples but the bad outweighs the good in my experience) . If i look around players in this country I can immediately tell which club they have learnt at (not in a good way) They have picked up the bad habits and styles from other players. The only two players with good driving form I have seen come to the British tour in recent years have learnt by themselves and had a chance to be good. Every player should be able to throw 400' (and the game does become more enjoyable when you can) the majority can't throw 200'

There is a way to get the brilliant information on good form on this site out there to the masses in a more understandable and uniform way, I'm not sure what it is yet but I want to keep trying and see others keep trying. Someone can see the same thing described differently 20 times and on the 21st something clicks. For instance your putting confidence video Mark helped me immensely despite others telling me to do similar things for ages, your video turned the lightbulb on. On the other hand your sidearm video did nothing for me (although I am sure many of the 400000 + other people who have watched it got a lot from it) All i got was "just throw it far" not how to throw it far(also the banner that comes across in green at 4.20 makes me hulk angry, incorrect information!!! Spin does not turn over a disc, it makes it fly stable, not overstable or understable, just stable!! One of the science things the physics geeks on this website and at different universities have proven repeatedly)

Blakes Hammer drill was superb for me in producing a reliable repeatable sidearm, I tried to get some friends in another part of the country to read through it to help theirs, they were too lazy, so I filmed quickly my own interpretation of it for them ad hoc in the office, this helped them and seems to have been shared widely since https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9WC2NUJC_U hopefully helping others to get from the drill what I did, I don't do it as powerfully as Blake but the idea in principle is the same (hopefully Blake doesn't post to tell me I've got it all wrong :? ) . HyzerUnibomber has been doing similar video interpretations over the last few months on his brilliant blog, perhaps others can take to the camera to share what they've learnt from this site and make it more accessible to a wider audience, maybe a thread for "what DGR taught me videos"

This, combined with a good tournament head and a putter which avoids the dirt may not satisfy the sophisticated audience which frequents this site but could well win a myriad of PDGA sanctioned tournaments

This is a fallacy i hear quoted often and always annoys me. Any player will be better if they improve their putting and improve their mental game however the following two statements are equally true:

A player that throws 400' accurately who can't putt is a better player than someone that throws 300' accurately and can't putt

A player that throws 400' accurately with a terrible mental game is a better player than someone that throws 300' accurately with a terrible mental game

No one that has ever taught good driving form has ever said "don't bother learning to putt or approach better" you can do all things equally.

i'm interested to hear more from Iacas on the subject of this thread, his 5 keys appear to have been well received in the golfing world ( a very competitive coaching industry) why wouldn't something similar apply to coaching in disc golf as well? Whether that is 10 or 20 keys and how to go about coaching them is a much different story!

 

[Widdershins]

The topic calls for Simple Keys to disc golf. How can anything which takes thousands of words to describe be "Simple"? :lol:

Most of the discussion on this topic seems to be more about achieving maximum distance than playing the game well. Yet we all know that these are very different things.

From playing and watching the game for a couple decades I have only personally witnessed 2 things radically improve power: Natural progression and the towel drill.

Natural progression is what happens by playing and practicing over time and includes tips/suggestions/lessons from others. For roughly the first decade of throwing forehand (my dominant drive style) playing and practicing had me driving farther every year. Then I leveled out and saw no increase for years until it was fueled by technology (the Nuke came out, I figured the Nuke out and had a new, surprising burst of distance). I think my experience is common among those who diligently pursue the game. This natural progression is incremental, gaining a little bit of power at a time with rare bigger jumps in the early stages.

The only other approach I have personally witnessed came from the towel drill ( I think created by Feldberg and Jenkins, at least I first heard it from them) and /or the Beto drill (basically the same idea without using a towel). Two friends of mine (both good established players with decent but unexceptional power) found a new and significant burst of power. I congratulated them on their achievements and both told me what they did. One used a towel the other held a disc and spent months practicing. Btw each did so independently of the other and years apart. They live in different parts of Michigan and I would guess they never talked to the other. Heck, one guy doesn't even own a phone.

To date I have never met a player who told me he significantly improved his power by reading this or any internet site. While there may indeed be those folks, as a general rule once a player has spent a few years at the game and established a power level it is rare to see that level improve noticeably. For all that we quibble with the written word I still think the better teaching tool is video and the far better tool is face to face coaching.

 

[Star Shark]

Key #1 to disc golf - Don't do anything stupid.

 

[JR]

Mark let me go on the record then. I have gained distance by reading from this site. If you read the video critique section there are many who tell of their distance gains as a result of what they have read and the advice they have gotten in the critiques. Mark made a great case for non driving advice being a key to improving. Probably more than improving driving. It is a fairly simple task to get a new player to become good at driving and putting. It is hard to make them great but in my limited experience it is easier to teach somebody to be a great putter faster than a great driver. There are way more great putters than drivers. And only a couple of per cent of players throw over 400' and the numbers plummet at 500' and above. At 800' the crowd is not. One guy learned to make almost everything within the circle and hitting metal 80 % of the time from 45' in half an hour. Dude has natural ability :mrgreen:

A sharp arm acceleration during the late stage of a putt is a key as defined by iacas. It is done by all the greats and is a part of both push and spin putting techniques.

 

[Widdershins]

Mark let me go on the record then. I have gained distance by reading from this site. If you read the video critique section there are many who tell of their distance gains as a result of what they have read and the advice they have gotten in the critiques. Mark made a great case for non driving advice being a key to improving. Probably more than improving driving. It is a fairly simple task to get a new player to become good at driving and putting. It is hard to make them great but in my limited experience it is easier to teach somebody to be a great putter faster than a great driver. There are way more great putters than drivers. And only a couple of per cent of players throw over 400' and the numbers plummet at 500' and above. At 800' the crowd is not. One guy learned to make almost everything within the circle and hitting metal 80 % of the time from 45' in half an hour. Dude has natural ability :mrgreen:

A sharp arm acceleration during the late stage of a putt is a key as defined by iacas. It is done by all the greats and is a part of both push and spin putting techniques.

Great putters are born. Good putters are made.

It took me over a decade and hundreds of hours of putting practice to even approach being a "good" putter. Granted, I may be a special case because my backhand snap is feeble. So iacas' "sharp acceleration" has eluded my best efforts.

I don't define a great driver based on distance alone, nor is big distance the most important factor in driving proficiency. Distance plus accuracy makes a good driver. Great distance plus accuracy under pressure makes a great driver. Greatness is rare in any category but I see lots more accomplished (accomplished, meaning more than good but somewhat shy of great) drivers than I do putters. I think in most Pro tournaments putting is the deciding factor.

In a doubles tournament, who do you want as your partner? A powerful driver or a fine putter? I will happily take the putter. There are a lot of big arms out there. Few have consistent control of their drives. Long and wrong is just trouble. When an average powered drive misses it goes to spots where many others have frequented. When a big arm drive misses it can find locations rarely visited and thickness of schule surprising even on much played courses.

I have always viewed driving as much easier than putting, perhaps because my driving has always been much better than my putting. It has been a rare tournament where I out-putted my competition and did not win. I often have out-driven the field and then congratulated the victor. Of course we always desire most that which we lack.

 

[Widdershins]

Key #1 to disc golf - Don't do anything stupid.

Ok. That disqualifies all of us.

 

[JR]

As proven by some people i have taught it is possible to learn to be a great putter. Because they were not great before getting some advice they graduated into greatness with the help of some info. Not everyone can learn to be great though at least before they let go of their notions and try out the advice that is there and train intelligently and systematically. Show me a great putter that is born into it and putts great on the first time they touch a disc. If there is someone like that i do not think it is common.

I agree about the need to be accurate when driving and long bombers have the advantage of being able to power down and still outdriving most. Powering down helps woth accuracy. Something is off and needs to be trained if a big arm is very off in accuracy with reduced power.

Iacas is not the originator of the idea of a quick acceleration in the putting motion of the arm. I do not know who is but i told him that and have picked it up from Blake who in turn probably lifted it from DAve Dunipace and i have no clue about his source.

Regarding the disqualification and our stupidity are the keys stupid too? Dunno. It might not be when teaching a newb but the farther you hone your game and the more the apparent limitations of the thrower become there is need for testing out every variant of every detail of form. So that the weak spots and cures can be identified and trained away. That spectrum of form variations and training tools is vast and in that a base set of a few keys is not always enough. Even though basic form must be great no matter who you are. The thing is that like Tiger Woods said that driving is easy just do this. And this. And thinking on it more the list grew a lot and same is true of basic disc golf driving form. You need to get more than 5 things right in it to even have a decent basis on which to build.

 

[PMantle1]

Putting has come along slower for me than any other aspect of the game. I'd say I'm 4 times the upshotter I was in the first year. 3 times the driver. I'm the same miserable putter. I can't get any power on putts with what feels like a putting motion instead of a disc throw. If I do get power, I miss right.

 

[JR]

It is not uncommon for a player to start out at 100-150' maximum distance and if they get good advice they often develop into 300'+ throwers with some going over 400' and few getting to 500'+. There are plenty of plateaus in distance that often are overcome with form changes first and physical development as a second possibly a far distant second. Putting does not need much power so that is not a limiting factor but form is. Most start out with severely hampered power production in a putt so they cannot putt from far away because they cannot get the disc under the basket let alone into it. Insert tips about proper form and most following the advice explode beyond their putting distance limit. Often times when that happens people also increase in distance because with power generation other aspects of form improve as well and most important of all you do not need to yank the disc to get it to the basket. Instead you can use comfortable accurate and repeateable power generation that is smooth and less susceptible to errors. It is a night and day difference. Because putting motions are slower and less complicated and they do not threaten to make you fall down the subconscious part of the body preventing tripping over does not kick in and take over the body control. Instead your conscious part of the body is in charge. Besides you really do not need to think if you have a proper pre flight check list and form and the earliest movements of the putts are naturally followed in progression by the next body parts in a kinetic chain. That is easy follow from start to the basket. Oncre you get a good form it feels like cheating. And it is not because you were born to be a great putter. It is because you do things right in a manner that you drilled based on information that you do not have at birth. A putting form is created in a mental learning process that needs a minimum amount of data. Some may develop a good form without realizing all the details mentally just doing things right naturally. That does not mean that you could not learn all the parts and combine them to make a working form for you. I have seen people who have been given enough data to create a good form fail at first in application of said data when they try to think while putting or refuse to utilize everything that was taught. Both ways are sufficient to stop progression well short of greatness as a putter. A child can learn to become a great putter. An older child can learn to drive great. It takes more age to grow enough muscles and limb size plus body control to be able to drive great than it takes to putt great. I have seen sub 10 year olds putt well from far and 11 year old boys passing 400'. 13 years old for girls passing 400' and 11 getting to about 390'. With decent accuracy and consistency too. Is David Wiggins junior the youngest 500' thrower and how old was he back then? Not too old 12-13?

 

[Star Shark]

I know he had the record when he was 11 at 484 and at 12 hit 576, so some time in there. The 484' throw as with a Highbridge Hills Wraith.

 

[rhatton2]

The topic calls for Simple Keys to disc golf. How can anything which takes thousands of words to describe be "Simple"? :lol:
.

Finding them's not the simple part evidently i'd imagine when Iacas did this for the golf version he and others spent 1000's of hours watching and arguing over video and they would have already been coming at it from the same hymn sheet. There is no unified teaching script here in the disc golf world, there certainly should be. I've just found out that someone who I'm pretty sure doesn't know a lot about form will be writing technique tips in the national newsletter - this scares me. Hopefully my fears will be unfounded and they will be useful articles.

Most of the discussion on this topic seems to be more about achieving maximum distance than playing the game well. Yet we all know that these are very different things.

Probably the title was poorly worded in the first place, it should be something more along the lines of simple keys to a good "insert good equivalent to swing in golf here..." Those 5 simple keys are not anything to do with putting in golf or a mental game or any of the other things discussed they are ways to hone the golf swing to get rid of the inconsistencies.

To date I have never met a player who told me he significantly improved his power by reading this or any internet site. While there may indeed be those folks, as a general rule once a player has spent a few years at the game and established a power level it is rare to see that level improve noticeably. For all that we quibble with the written word I still think the better teaching tool is video and the far better tool is face to face coaching.

I am one. The vast majority of people don't have the time or patience to attempt to get better and never come to sites like these preferring to watch the easy options on Youtube if at all. During the winter months where I can't get out to play and practice I want to find every resource at my fingertips to improve, or at least to give myself the best chance on the practise field to feel something different. This site has been that resource. The Hammer drills far far outweigh the towel drill for me personally. Those and other drills described here far outweigh any of the "pro" clinics on driving form that I have seen on Youtube. Maybe that's just me, but all i get from them is "well just throw far and then well um, you throw far." (Schustericks recent ones would have been quite helpful to me a few years ago in fairness, things like the Deep in the Game? Personally I can't see much worthwhile in there to someone trying to get better at all.)

I totally agree though that for the vast majority of people video is more helpful (only if it means more people will actually pay attention to it than the written word) and face to face coaching from someone that knows what they are doing (many good players do not fit this category I'm afraid) is even better. I would love to see what I suggested in the post above people making their own videos and interpretations of the good advice given on DGR to make it more widely and easily accessible to more players.

Key #1 to disc golf - Don't do anything stupid.

I fail this test daily no hope for me.

I agree about the need to be accurate when driving and long bombers have the advantage of being able to power down and still outdriving most. Powering down helps woth accuracy. Something is off and needs to be trained if a big arm is very off in accuracy with reduced power.

This sums it up perfectly.

When I talk about improving driving distance it isn't for that one magical time you throw the perfect 500' flex shot that gets you the 2 on the par 4 it's that you can throw your putter 300' on a laser line to the basket instead of 150' with tons of OAT or a Roc 330' + on any line you want and know it will be no more than 10 meters away from where you were aiming. Yes i could easily throw a high speed driver the same distances a few years ago but the margin for error was far far greater.

By being able to throw slower more accurate discs further I am more accurate. To never have to reach for a driver because I have the accurate distance with a Roc makes me a far greater player with much less margin of error. And hell if you keep parking every hole you never need to putt I'm going for the Happy Gilmore style of disc golf. (in my first couple of years playing it felt like I was more accurate at 300' than i was at 15', things, thanks to your putting clinic Mark, have fortunately improved since then!)

 

[HyzerUniBomber1]

I've found that in my own path to "distance" it was never really about distance. Honestly, that's my true gut feeling and I'm not putting myself out there as ANY KIND of big arm. I started truly trying to adjust my form from a hot mess into something better at the beginning of the summer 2014.

I found a few ways to throw farther than I'm currently throwing, where I was using a substantial amount of rotational force - but it was inaccurate. I was throwing my 170g Anode putters 350' - but it was a very wild and un-reproduce-able shot.

As I slowed things down and pushed balance from the beginning to the end of the motion (taking out the tripping sensation as JR puts it), I became more and more accurate to 300' with a putter.

My input from anybody in real life, was utter crap. Open level players often don't have any idea what they're doing, they don't like to talk about it, and if I really push them to share some insight - they're usually just confused with why things work.

DGCR Form/Analysis (predominantly Sidewinder22), The Hit Back video, Bradley's video - those were the staples that guided me, but HONESTLY it took daily field work with video review to see what was happening.

I think that the exploration into your own form, including truly analyzing your own video is a fantastic tool. Certain tools for generating force come only with hours and hours of practice. Being able to differentiate between slight tweaks in balance and timing, it is hard to feel/reproduce/adjust until you have that motion on lock down.

Keys I'd put forth for a well formed and accurate drive, in no particular order

1. Balance from start to finish.
2. Bracing against the plant leg along an axis that can transfer forward motion into rotational motion.
3. Elbow leading the shoulder before forearm extension.
4. 90 degree angle between upper arm and spine
5. Hand on the outside of the disc to the point of forearm extension (most commonly center chest to right pec).
6. Hand speed slow enough into the power pocket that it doesn't over power grip strength as the hand redirects to the 3:00+ release points.
7. Follow through on the line you're throwing.
8. Release the torque on your knee via a pivoting of the plant foot.

Feel free to rip these to shreds / add / remove / update.

 

[Widdershins]

Putting has come along slower for me than any other aspect of the game. I'd say I'm 4 times the upshotter I was in the first year. 3 times the driver. I'm the same miserable putter. I can't get any power on putts with what feels like a putting motion instead of a disc throw. If I do get power, I miss right.[/quote

Greetings, twin brother by a different mother. Players with backhand snap don't realize how difficult putting is without it. I had been playing about 3 years before I had my first legitimate 30 foot putt. It was nothing special to anyone else, just a solid clean snap and a direct line to the heart of the basket. Damn! A straight line putt! Not a loft putt, not a throw but a legitimate putt like a real player might throw. I was shocked and had no idea how it had happened.

Now thousands and thousands of putts later it happens more frequently but takes perfect release and timing. Most times that line is not worth trying (the margin of error is too small) so I revert to loft putting. At 35' I just turn sideways and throw it.

Many people have told me it's all mental, that I have convinced myself I can't do it but if I tried harder or practiced more I could do so easily. There are few players in the world who have spent the time or effort into putting practice that I have. So maybe they are correct but 100 hours of practice from now I am willing to wager they are wrong.

 

[JR]

You are not alone in getting frustrated in putting. Practicing more of the same will not change things for the better unless you make a mistake and putt differently and the change is into a good direction. Practice makes permanent changing form makes better. There are definitely harmful ways of putting because putting is so delicate at longer ranges while needing power that so much can go wrong and one thing off usually means a miss. There might be a few more keys than 5 to putting. At least when you get to longer ranges. Certainly more than 5 useful tips if not keys.

 

[PMantle1]

At 35' I just turn sideways and throw it.

Not sure about 35' because coming from golf, I am still having trouble converting from yards, but at some point, I turn and toss an anny like one of those guys in one of your putting vids. The one where one guy jumps, and the older guy just takes a quick look and throws. I make some, but the ones I don't end up close because of the correction of the disc from the anny release. Have gotten a lot of wows. I guys many guys never thought of it.

 

[rhatton2]

I've found that in my own path to "distance" it was never really about distance. Honestly, that's my true gut feeling and I'm not putting myself out there as ANY KIND of big arm. I started truly trying to adjust my form from a hot mess into something better at the beginning of the summer 2014.

So this, developing good form leads to big distance. Trying to achieve big distance in most cases doesn't lead to good form. Increased distance is one of the better markers of improved form unless using indepth video analysis which is why the two are often confused.

My input from anybody in real life, was utter crap. Open level players often don't have any idea what they're doing, they don't like to talk about it, and if I really push them to share some insight - they're usually just confused with why things work.

DGCR Form/Analysis (predominantly Sidewinder22), The Hit Back video, Bradley's video - those were the staples that guided me, but HONESTLY it took daily field work with video review to see what was happening.

So glad this wasn't just my experience. Those that can just do it and don't know how or why. That's why I love these forums as they are populated by people for whom just doing it wasn't enough they needed to know why and how it worked. These are the coaches that can take other players games to another level even if their own will never make it as they aren't as naturally gifted in the sport. Sidewinder/Seabass, Beto, Blake, Bradley, Jhern, JR and all those others have helped far more players than they have hindered, none of them are at the top of the game themselves.

Practice makes permanent changing form makes better.

So true in all aspects of form. Practising for hours and hours years ago with bad form has left me with some horribly engrained habits that are so hard to break and keep creeping back in once I have.