Stuck at 450'

[cajual]

Mike; I wanted to ask you a question specifically. I have been watching the two videos that you posted more for educational reasons than critical and am curious about a few things.

First, in your footwork I notice your back is slightly oriented towards your target, as if you steps are at 135(R), 180(L), and 90(R) degrees with a straight and long reach back. I have also seen several players that take steps at 90(R), 135(L), and 90(R) that reach back more circular with a bent elbow (Seppo Paju comes to mind). My question is whether or not you find your throwing style to be more consistently accurate and controllable when it comes to minor finesse adjustments.

I have been moving back and forth between both throwing styles now since the beginning when I really started watching video in an attempt to hone my form into a balance between on demand distance and control, not necessarily both at the same time, but the ability to have either depending on the situation. I have found that when I use a quicker, shorter step that is more oriented perpendicular with a bent elbow reach back I have more accuracy and an easier time with nose down and release angles etc, but also that my distance suffers greatly.

On the contrary, I have found that when I throw more similar to you I have much greater distance but significantly less control. Part of me is curious if it is due to eye fixture and the fact it is removed from your line for such an extended period.

Have you had any similar problems or experiences? What have you learned to help balance your distance and power? You have a build similar to me, but slightly stronger it looks like. Tall, lean, athletic. Balance, arm speed, foot speed, etc are not issues for me. My problem right now is that I am trying TOO many things and not just throwing. I am kind of looking for that one tip that helps me bring it all together and get out of my head so to speak.

I am working on putting some footage together but am not really sure how to get a good recording without requesting a friend to come out with me.

**Edit; bent elbow I throw between 325-350' and with a long straight reach back out just shy of 450' -- I throw lighter Wraiths for max D, or have up until recently now that I have pulled everything faster than a PD out of my bag. But have also always been able to throw a 'frozen rope' or low hyzer out to around 325-375' depending the disc or the type of skip I take.

 

[masterbeato]

what you are talking about Mike are small increments in mechanical technique to go from 450' to 500'+, or just a difference in height (assuming your going for line drives that far. a minimum of 35' - 40' high, or with faster, longer discs.) throwing 500' with teebirds, eagles, wraiths, orcs and discs like that is much easier than trying to throw 500' with bosses, katana's and discs alike theoretically. it is harder to keep nose down by a large margin. that takes a lot of work to keep nose down angles with them discs and would be a waste of time to even think about using those discs right now since that is probably not where the problem lies that is holding you back from your 500' monster dream.

i would stretch out your hit point further out from your body (late release). that usually comes with a longer shoulder pause. if you did not gain any distance from that, you are doing it wrong. which directly has to do with that shoulder timing coming in too early. extremely important!

 

[MasterP97]

I see some early slipping. One thing I might suggest is dropping your pull line down by an inch to create more leverage. If you watch a guy like GG he has a much lower pull than say Avery Jenkings. I think this helps him create a ton more leverage. It helped me add some distance recently. Nose down is probably the other major culprit. I was like you were I spent a lot of time throwing putters/mids and when I tried to make drivers do the same things, the nose up would limit my distance. It has taken me a good year of learning drivers to be able to touch them out to 500ft on command. If you really want to get over 450ft just do a 360-throw.

Are you throwing 500' 360 or standard cross-step?

 

[zj10021]

x-step with a mini PHS in there.

I first got over 450ft with the 360 pretty much exactly 1 year ago. 515 is about the max for my x-step. further than that I need the 360

 

[MasterP97]

I've never even experimented with the 360, but I'm beginning to wonder if that is the only way I'll get to 500' My very longest throw this year was 481', with a range finder. It was also a flex shot and not a bullet. I can get to 430' on a bullet and was just starting to experiment with distance lines, but too many things came up as of late, so I wasn't able to focus on fieldwork before the snow and my travels.

I still have a lot of work to do as I'm consistent to 430' and hitting 450' more than a few times during my few hours of fieldwork. I've been throwing Nukes, Pro Bosses, and Pro Destroyers to get there. I've had some wicked long throws with PDs, but not as consistent. I obviously have a lot of form flaws to work out and should be using different discs in light of what Beato said.

It is now winter and feet of snow on the ground, so no working on this till late April or sometime in May of 2012 I'll just be throwing mids and putters for the most part, maybe I'll find a breakthrough during the winters months. Hopefully the mid and putter thing will provide the maintenance I need for form clean up. I'm sure bad things crept in this season or it is things that I never got rid of this year. I do know that throwing mids and putters last winter gave me a distance gain this past spring, that was nice.

It appears that is only going to fix so much, so now begins the journey of tweaking mechanics. I'm going to have to get more film of myself and see if I can dissect it. That'll provide brain food in the off-season and maybe I'll be able to work on those issues during the harsh winter months.

 

[Mike C]

Mike; I wanted to ask you a question specifically. I have been watching the two videos that you posted more for educational reasons than critical and am curious about a few things.

First, in your footwork I notice your back is slightly oriented towards your target, as if you steps are at 135(R), 180(L), and 90(R) degrees with a straight and long reach back. I have also seen several players that take steps at 90(R), 135(L), and 90(R) that reach back more circular with a bent elbow (Seppo Paju comes to mind). My question is whether or not you find your throwing style to be more consistently accurate and controllable when it comes to minor finesse adjustments.

I have been moving back and forth between both throwing styles now since the beginning when I really started watching video in an attempt to hone my form into a balance between on demand distance and control, not necessarily both at the same time, but the ability to have either depending on the situation. I have found that when I use a quicker, shorter step that is more oriented perpendicular with a bent elbow reach back I have more accuracy and an easier time with nose down and release angles etc, but also that my distance suffers greatly.

On the contrary, I have found that when I throw more similar to you I have much greater distance but significantly less control. Part of me is curious if it is due to eye fixture and the fact it is removed from your line for such an extended period.

Have you had any similar problems or experiences? What have you learned to help balance your distance and power? You have a build similar to me, but slightly stronger it looks like. Tall, lean, athletic. Balance, arm speed, foot speed, etc are not issues for me. My problem right now is that I am trying TOO many things and not just throwing. I am kind of looking for that one tip that helps me bring it all together and get out of my head so to speak.

The footwork thing I started doing to make sure I got my body well rotated before the hit, because when I first started caring about my form I was doing the complete opposite and getting no body rotation at all. I think I may of over compensated but it works for me. I don't think it effects accuracy much. My idea when driving is if you held a ruler flat against my chest, to point the end of the ruler where I want to throw. How much I rotate during the run-up is irrelevant because through repetition I've taught my body to come back to the plane I lined it up at in the beginning. In my opinion on a backhand distance throw you should not be aiming with your eyes after you have taken your first step of the x-step. The only time the eyes are involved for me are when I'm picking my line and observing the wind. Once I'm ready to throw, I 100% trust in my body positioning. If you blind-folded me after I picked out my line and lined up my body and the shot, but before I actually threw, I don't think it would matter. I throw the same way in the open practice fields as I do on a hole with a 10' wide fairway in the woods and I think that's important to do.

That's what it all comes down to for me anyways. The body rotation and long reach back come into play for the distance but I don't think it has a very adverse effect on accuracy. Honestly I'm more accurate throwing at 80% than I am when I try to power down, because at high power things feel more familiar.

The mental side of things is really important too. For me, I've never been able to step up to a drive and think, "Keep the nose down, accelerate late, get your body into it, grip tightly at the hit etc." I just step of and throw. Through intuition, observation and practice you're able to pick out a line and you know what it feels like to throw that line. In between the moment where you pick your line and you throw, the less time and the less thoughts, the better IMO. Optimally these things will come down to muscle memory, so once you've picked your route, your disc, assessed the wind and all that, it's simply a matter of letting go of everything and allowing your body to work. My best throws come when I am relaxed and not so much trying to throw my furthest, but rather I'm relying on smooth movements and clean form and letting things come into place themselves rather than trying to force it. I'm kind of drunk and don't know if any of this made sense or helped but there you go.

 

[kern97871]

In my opinion on a backhand distance throw you should not be aiming with your eyes after you have taken your first step of the x-step. The only time the eyes are involved for me are when I'm picking my line and observing the wind. Once I'm ready to throw, I 100% trust in my body positioning. If you blind-folded me after I picked out my line and lined up my body and the shot, but before I actually threw, I don't think it would matter. I throw the same way in the open practice fields as I do on a hole with a 10' wide fairway in the woods and I think that's important to do.

Can't say enough how much easier it is to throw this way. When I'm teaching others how to throw, this is one of the first things I tell them. More often than not, when you are trying to look forward during your reach back, you are either straining your neck to see, or you aren't letting your shoulders come back all the way.

I also tend to see people reaching back across their body because of this. When I am fully rotated back, by back is perpendicular to the line I'm trying to throw on, and my right arm is at a right angle (90*) from my shoulders, which leaves it pointing, through my shoulder, to the line I want to throw on. Essentially the disc during the pull through is aready on the line I'm throwing for.

 

[Mike C]

So I made a 1/8th speed video for the first time and it makes my flaws really, really obvious. A lot of the things you guys suggested are spot on, looking at this video. Pulling a little early, my third step is way too far forward to allow shifting my weight forward, and what Dan pointed out about the shoulder rotation and extending my release point is very, very good advice that I'm going to try and implement asap. Another thing I'm noticing is as I pivot through the release my plant foot looks like its off axis.

I'm going to try and get out to the field a few times this week, and each day pick 1 aspect of my throw to try and improve.



Stuck at 500ish now but I have a good idea of how to fix that.

 

[JR]

You came across the joy of high speed footage. It is brutal in showing what must be changed. How about keeping the left foot on the ground until the disc has left? For me it was 6-7 MPH more exit speed with slow steps than full speed run up and left leg in the air. Grr. Oh the pain of knowing and not being able to drill for change being injured.

 

[Mike C]

Brutal...tell me about it. I chopped up my recent FH only putter round and put all the drives at 1/8th speed. My god, the wobble! I couldn't figure out what I was doing, turning over a 175g putter on a 200' shot then the next hole flicking a 171g putter for 250' with 0 turn. It turns out a lot of times when I'm trying to throw FH with a bit of hyzer to fight some wind, I'm snapping the disc up to a flat release just before I let go, which is causing horrible wobble. It's frustratingly slow, getting these max power FH putter drives down, but damn does it help me clean up my form.

 

[JR]

The less you put the fingers inside the disc the easier it is to wobble the disc during the disc pivot.

 

[sidewinder22]

So I made a 1/8th speed video for the first time and it makes my flaws really, really obvious. A lot of the things you guys suggested are spot on, looking at this video. Pulling a little early, my third step is way too far forward to allow shifting my weight forward, and what Dan pointed out about the shoulder rotation and extending my release point is very, very good advice that I'm going to try and implement asap. Another thing I'm noticing is as I pivot through the release my plant foot looks like its off axis.

I'm going to try and get out to the field a few times this week, and each day pick 1 aspect of my throw to try and improve.

Stuck at 500ish now but I have a good idea of how to fix that.

JR already talked about your rear foot/leg and you don't seem to be generating much leverage under your hips through the swing plane. Footwork looks choppy, if you watch the top throwers its more gliding. Foot pivot looks flat, not quite heel pivoting and doesn't pivot much. Looks like the spinal axis is moving around quite a bit as the whole body pivots off axis for anything other than anyhyzer....not maintaining posture, and not fully bracing against the front side for the hit. Looks like your weight is too far back over the rear foot before planting so you try to throw your weight forward and lose balance/posture. I'm not sure if you are trying to throw distance lines, but if so the trajectory is off. I'd work on footwork, balance/staying more centered, posture, and a lower pull line.

 

[Mike C]

Looks like the spinal axis is moving around quite a bit as the whole body pivots off axis for anything other than anyhyzer....not maintaining posture, and not fully bracing against the front side for the hit. Looks like your weight is too far back over the rear foot before planting so you try to throw your weight forward and lose balance/posture. I'm not sure if you are trying to throw distance lines, but if so the trajectory is off. I'd work on footwork, balance/staying more centered, posture, and a lower pull line.

Yeah those are the same things I'm noticing too. My alignment looks all off when I go into the rotation up to the release, and your comments on the overall footwork are spot on.

 

[JoshEpoo]

Looks like the spinal axis is moving around quite a bit as the whole body pivots off axis for anything other than anyhyzer....not maintaining posture, and not fully bracing against the front side for the hit. Looks like your weight is too far back over the rear foot before planting so you try to throw your weight forward and lose balance/posture.

This is the stuff that those Shawn Clement videos really helped me understand. When you get your right foot down, and get braced on the right side with your weight under control, the shot feels a lot different. I think Seabas (apologies if I'm misquoting) referred to it as "tipping the pendulum" at some point. I feel like Mike could pick up quite a bit more power in this respect.

Added bonuses: working on this part of my shot helped me resolve some nasty nagging lower right back/hip pain related to crappy weight shift and trying to throw my weight forward over my front foot instead of clearing my hips and transferring the power up, and I almost never shank right anymore...

Edit: I'll also note that I think getting fully braced on the front of the hit feels like it's related to the shoulder pause. It sets up for a really explosive, compact weight shift, and a super tight axis of rotation, and really helps get your weight forward for hyzers.

 

[Justinthrowsfar]

Looks like the spinal axis is moving around quite a bit as the whole body pivots off axis for anything other than anyhyzer....not maintaining posture, and not fully bracing against the front side for the hit. Looks like your weight is too far back over the rear foot before planting so you try to throw your weight forward and lose balance/posture.

This is the stuff that those Shawn Clement videos really helped me understand. When you get your right foot down, and get braced on the right side with your weight under control, the shot feels a lot different. I think Seabas (apologies if I'm misquoting) referred to it as "tipping the pendulum" at some point. I feel like Mike could pick up quite a bit more power in this respect.

Added bonuses: working on this part of my shot helped me resolve some nasty nagging lower right back/hip pain related to crappy weight shift and trying to throw my weight forward over my front foot instead of clearing my hips and transferring the power up, and I almost never shank right anymore...

Edit: I'll also note that I think getting fully braced on the front of the hit feels like it's related to the shoulder pause. It sets up for a really explosive, compact weight shift, and a super tight axis of rotation, and really helps get your weight forward for hyzers.

Which videos were those? Got a link?

 

[sidewinder22]

Which videos were those? Got a link?

http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=23635
Bottom of the page is the hammer throw vids. If you go to shawn clement's youtube channel check anything super tilted spiral, weight shift, footwork, finish position, bubba wide. All really great info and explained well...reminds me of Bradley Walker's doppleganger.

 

[Mike C]

Thanks for the link, I'm going to watch those tonight and see what I can learn from him.

 

[JoshEpoo]

The stuff I'm talking about is contained mostly in the tilted super spiral clips but all of the topics Seabas22 brought up are interesting and tie into disc golf quite a bit.

 

[Justinthrowsfar]

Thanks for the quick response man, much appreciated.