Stuck in the 330-380 zone (like soooo many others) and need advice.

[WildDisc]

First off I want to say that I've been a lurker here for many years reading posts and watching form videos. The advice you guys give on here is great and amazingly timely when people have questions. You guys rock!:thmbup:
I've been gleaning tips and tidbits here to help progress but I'm now stuck at a really bad plateau that I can't seem to overcome. The time has come for me to stop being a lurker and request some outside advice.

I've been an occasional disc player for many years but I've been stuck at this 330-380 distance range plateau for the past 3 years(yeah I've hit 400 a few times with a huge runup but I'm not counting those). I've finally decided (and have the time) to put some serious field effort and work into gaining more distance. My ultimate distance goal that I am aspiring to is to be able to hit 500ft, anything past that I'll just take as a lucky bonus. Is 500ft a realistic goal for an average 5'9" 150lbs, somewhat athletic late 30's-early 40's guy? Or is it mainly genetics and learning from a young age that gets that kind of distance?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the 330-380 plateau range is the zone where most people actually get stuck and stop progressing unless they take time and outside advice to learn half way decent form? I see that most people asking for advice are trying to get out of this specific distance rut.

Anyway, here's where I'm at: I'm feeling the weight of the disc. I feel like I'm hitting the power pocket. I'm feeling (and hearing) somewhat of a snap or fling at the end of my throws. The disc rips strongly out of my fingers(blisters on fingertips). I'm feeling a small bit of a weight shift from my legs. I know which discs to use and how to work them to get a big s curve for max distance.

Here's what I feel I'm having trouble with that's holding me back (though there may be a dozen other things I'm not catching as well). I feel like if I unlock these problems I could gain a ton of distance?:
1. Weight shift. This I believe is my #1 limiting factor and for the life of me can't figure out how to transfer my forward momentum into the disc. I'm sort of getting the hip rotation in but I can't figure out the plant leg. I've watched so many videos and done so many drills like crush the can, kick the ball, the windmill, double dragon leg swings, sitting towards a chair, etc. etc. Somehow something isn't getting through :wall: and I always seem to blow through my plant leg at the end of my throw. When I watch videos of the pros throw they completely stop their forward and rotational momentum with the plant leg to transfer it into the disc and stand there like a flamingo balanced on one leg. I always end up falling forward over my plant leg and/or rotating on it rapidly at the end of my throws(probably putting undue stress on my knee). If I try to shift my weight back further I end up skyballing the throw and/or it only goes like 250ft.

2. The second most troublesome thing I'm struggling with is keeping a consistent nose down angle on the disc. I'll throw a handful of good throws and then suddenly nose up one and skyball it which then comes hyzering down to the ground. These are not uncommon and I can't figure out where these are coming from as I'm holding my wrist at the proper angle. I've watched tons of videos and read forum advice on this as well but it still seems to persist, though not as frequently as it used to. I'm guessing it has something to do with the weight shift and timing of problem #1?

So here are some videos of me throwing (side view and back view). I chose throws that had a good flight line and they all landed around 350ft.

Please critique me and let me know what I can change to get more distance even if it means starting over from scratch. Don't worry about hurting my feelings, just lay it on me.
Thank you in advance!:hfive:

Throw 1 side view: https://youtu.be/kYOER845l4s
Throw 2 side view: https://youtu.be/ThJaLECAj6Q
Throw 3 side veiw: https://youtu.be/ju_u6PIQXF4
Back Views: https://youtu.be/rCWtlLLYLzM

 

[sidewinder22]

Your feet and body are moving in the way of your swing instead of staying out of the way. Your crossover step with right foot is stepping toward the right tee and getting in the way of your stride of the left foot into the plant. So you are exaggerating the rightward x-step and planting too staggered closed, and you are too backwards too early as your feet are crossing back over and not really creating any internal toque going into the plant.

So as your body is moving rightward into the swing path, it makes it much harder to brace up and redirect your body back to the left which would pull the swing taut. But instead your direction of weightshift toward the right into the swing causes your arm to collapse toward the body and create slack and likely nose up.

When I get to the part of 3 step x-step(RHBH), first step with right foot is diagonal crossing over the left foot, so the left foot can take a straight forward step unimpeded by the right foot and the right foot is now unimpeded to stride straight thru with the left foot out of the way. See in vid below how my feet stay out of the way of each other.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139973

 

[WildDisc]

Hi sidewinder22, thanks for the feedback, I've been reading your replies and watching your drill videos for years. Thanks for all you do for the Disc Golf community!

getting in the way of your stride of the left foot into the plant

You're right, actually I've never noticed this before, it is really close I'm surprised I've never tripped over myself! I've always taken side shot videos and never from any other angle, but I noticed your sticky about what to post so I added the rear view shot. I see why it's so crucial now. I think my throw may have evolved into this because it helps me hang on to the disc for longer and still keep it on line with where I'm wanting to throw. Kind of like using grip lock to my favor to get a good fling at the end(hope that makes sense), but this could be what is holding me back now that my upper body form has improved a bit more of late.

When it stops raining here I'm gonna go do some field work and see if I can correct this per your advice and see what happens.

Couple of questions:
1. Do you know of some good rear view angle videos of the pros throwing? I looked and can't seem to find any.
2. What do you mean when you say "planting too staggered closed"?
Thanks again!

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[WildDisc]

Wow, awesome, thank you!

 

[WildDisc]

sidewinder22

You're a genius thank you. That simple change instantly added 20-25ft to my average distance! I can tell I'm getting more speed too because I'm turning over discs that wouldn't turn for me before.
I can still feel that I'm not bracing my plant leg very well and I'm still not stopping my momentum like I need to at the end of the throw but this did help to transfer some energy through. I'm going to work on this improved step pattern for a bit and see if I can get the bracing better and come back with more videos to critique.
If you notice anything else I need to work on in those videos please let me know.
:thmbup:

 

[WildDisc]

So I have been practicing off and on for about a month now since my first post and my distance and form have improved. The tips you gave on the first videos I posted last month really helped, thank you sidewinder22, so I'm back for more . My average throw range is now 350-400. I frequently hit or just pass the 400 mark and I've broken my longest throw record (made previously with long fast runups) several times now with just the regular footwork. My best throw is now 425ft!

I am surprised at how much of a difference just small changes make. I have been trying all kinds of different little changes over the last month and have come out with two things that have really helped with my distance and consistency.
#1: The tip that sidewinder22 gave about bringing my left foot (LHBH) across more on the first step with my left foot. This helped to engage my hips a little bit more.
#2: A tip I found gleaning youtube to keep your throwing elbow up. I kept regressing periodically in distance and couldn't figure out why, this was the problem, I didn't have my throwing arm elbow up and the more I thought about other things the more it dropped.
Hopefully someone reading this trying to improve will find these helpful too like I did.

Ok, so here is a new video of my throw now. These throws were 400ft and 410ft. Front and back angles are in the same video. I still don't feel like I'm transferring the energy very well from my lower body to my upper body. Any further tips to help me improve my distance again is greatly appreciated.
(by the way I saw that my x step is too big in these throws, I changed to make the x step smaller now and it has helped with consistency.)
https://youtu.be/rcV9eIjTzYo

 

[sidewinder22]

X-step is way too long or too far ahead of your center of mass/gravity. So your pressure point is way ahead of your mass and slowing you down and leaning back and not able to leverage yourself and accelerate forward of rear foot/pressure point.

 

[WildDisc]

SW, yeah I changed that already (mentioned in my last reply) because I noticed it too after I watched the video, it did improve my accuracy and consistency but didn't seem to make a difference in distance.

The strange thing is that I keep taking videos of my throws and I notice something off and change it, then I take another video and notice something different that wasn't even a problem before and change it, and the cycle continues. It's frustrating to try to change one thing and have three other things fall apart. Seems like I take 2 steps forward and 1.9 steps back. Some days I go and throw and my distance is worse than previous days, but at least I'm improving over the long run. Just got to stick with it and not get too frustrated with myself.

I guess I should make another video with my latest shorter x-step change too and see what else went wrong, just didn't have a good day to do it. Can't wait till I finally figure out how to get the full power transfer from the ground to the disc. I'll be back with more soon. Thanks again.

 

[WildDisc]

Ok, I found some time to go out and throw some more today with some more tweaks to my form, mainly a shorter x-step. I was really trying to concentrate on my form instead of distance, these were only flying about 330-350ft.

I imagine it's hard to diagnose problems from just one throw so I've made a couple videos with multiple throws to hopefully get some more good input on some corrections I need to make to my form.

The first video is of throws from the side view with several slow motions at the end:
https://youtu.be/cmrYCz2Vh9c


The second video is of throws from the back view with several slow motions at the end:
https://youtu.be/h4r8uxqU7-s

 

[sidewinder22]

You never really get balanced on your rear foot and your front foot is just striding outward, so you never get the hips cocked inward before striding out. You want your front foot is stride forward more underneath your body to catch yourself, not striding out around it, unless it comes back inward into the plant like GG/kick the can. So if you are going to stagger into closed stance that much, then your foot needs to come inward first. If your foot is going to stride out like you are then it needs to come back inward into the plant.

 

[WildDisc]

I think I know what you're trying to tell me but not sure so just want to clarify. So I'm putting my plant foot too far out in front of my rear foot toe? But that would be ok if I swung it underneath myself as I move it forward before I plant it out there instead of just putting my foot directly out there?

Otherwise I should not put it out that far in front of my rear toe? Is this what you're saying?

 

[WildDisc]

So THIS happened today!!!

sidewinder22 I was trying the newest form change that you suggested and nothing was working, discs were flying everywhere and barely breaking the 300ft mark. I got frustrated and decided I needed a little confidence boost. I thought I'd try a huge runup using a few of the new techniques I've been using. This happened on about the 4th huge runup throw. Just seemed to keep sailing. I even busted out my industrial tape measure to verify the distance because I couldn't believe it.

So my question is: Why can I get the disc to go so much further with a runup and a big x-step even though going too fast is supposed to mess up timing? Unfortunately I didn't get video of it.

By the way, I'm still working on trying that new thing you suggested.

 

[sidewinder22]

Form improvement is not always a linear progression. Messing with speed and posture will likely mess with timing.

IMO you have to think about it in terms of smash factory efficiency. How much energy are you putting into the throw compared to the output. How much more energy can you put into that form? Now if you can throw that far with much less energy you have greater potential.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUSnduCQxA8#t=80s