The Myth of Disc Pivot

[Blake_T1]

Jr: try making the radius of your arc smaller. Aka dont let your elbow straighten all the way before changing directions. That should reduce the inertia pull / g force the disc exerts on your grip.


I also forgot to write why this is the key of this thread... If you try to allow the disc to swing freely through the pivot you will never be able to hold onto it all the way to the full hit zone.


I am currently working on a way of teaching this, which is more difficult than just showing what it is.

I can say that being able to keep the disc's weight under control is an absolute necessity and so the hammer drills still apply. The difference with this tech is that there's no forcing of the wrist extension.

 

[JR]

I think you did write about not allowing the lock fingers to be too loose to allow the disc pivot freely forward (meaning too early decreasing the late acceleration) and grip strength required to get from the critical point of the arc to the half then full hit portion of the arm swing with the disc still in the hand. Just not in those exact words.

The arc shortening will be the next step for me after i've maximized grip strength by adding to the pressure of lock fingers. There is room for improvement there. There is a contradictory training issue in learning full hitting with thin winged discs and the exact same discs suffering more from sticking fingers than drivers. I was able to add to grip strength lately with the Jenkins way of placing the thumb but added stress from that and adding to training amounts to harder than in a quarter of a century led to tendonitis so it'll be a while before i can advance in this.

By the way i have tried reaching back the Voigt way=away from the body in the reach back and close to the right pec. Like the rail for Dan shows. That alone didn't help because the grip slip outs. Even when i got the elbow forward. I did try to extend the elbow fully and starting turning the shoulders prior to the elbow chops to no difference. It seems that the grip is the limiting factor for both but i can't confirm that until i've healed and improve the grip strength to eliminate that possibility.

I'll get back to this thread after i've either had results or not have after added grip strength and shoulder turning/elbow chop timing adjustment. What kind of relative timing do you recommend for starting the shoulder turn vs the elbow chop movement range? And did i interpret the shortening of the radius correctly as needing to turn the shoulders prior to the elbow straightening fully? To compensate for the lacking grip strength.

Changing directions hmm? Doesn't that mean that the disc is moving back to front and the arm is moving left to right and eventually back in an arc so the actual pinch strength requirement for holding on is actually increasing from a faster to the side movement trying to separate the finger from the disc? No news there because i do try to hold on and get the direction change as it is. So in theory the shortened arc radius helps in reducing the required strength by making the lever of the smaller diameter arc shorter but doesn't it also lose out some of the benefits to lesser pinch power need to the earlier directional change acceleration converted to sideways speed to the side pulling the fingers into other direction than the aiming line? At a higher speed due to longer off aiming line acceleration time? Even if the Gs may be the same or lower due to the longer acceleration time i'd think that the resulting velocity to the side would increase the grip strength need for lesser benefits. Oh well that's theory i need to test it out in practice. With high speed camera to see that i'm doing things right and monitoring when the disc slips/rips out and how much it has pivoted.

High speed video compared to the no hit/half hit/full hit continuum picture and at which clock facing the disc separates from the fingers would point out immediately to the thrower how long and well they held on. And if you use a disc that shows the amount of degrees the disc spins during the pivot so well that it is easy to follow in the video you'd be set. You could show the thrower immediately what they did and where they are lacking.

 

[Blake_T1]

If you want to hold on longer you have 3 contributing factors:
1. The speed with which you approach the critical point. Slower = easier to hang on.
2. The abruptness of the directional change. Less abrupt = smaller arc radius = easier to hold on.
3. Grip strength.

Holding on from the critical point to the ideal release point has some tricks to it. The "key turn" of the wrist to the forward/down position helps hang on without adding grip pressure (it changes the ergonomics).


Keep in mind the arm itself has to rotate in order to follow the rail.

Again, i dont really know why hi speed video is needed since i can see it on a full speed throw. In 9 out of 10 cases the ability to hold on is due to the entry speed while approaching the critical point.

 

[JR]

Can you see the rip point in your own throws? I bet none of the throwers do themselves. If they were able to see it immediately after the throw for themselves that would give clear as day feedback to where they are now. It has been said that you need to change form in order to throw farther not drill the old form ad nauseum. Looking at the writing on the wall and seeing the differences between differing forms confirms to the thrower the differences between forms motivating them to switch form or keep on changing things until they get to where they need to go. Motivating the change and pushing the changes is the key because people don't wanna change easily.

Yeah i didn't account for the abruptness in my thinking you're right. I've slowed down for approaches already and gotten an added bonus from that. Now that the arm swing lasts longer there is more time for the brain to work and the result of muscle training carried over to a faster arm chop. So i'm getting more plyometrics in the arm aiding in the mechanical feedback of the disc to the fingers pressure increase. also aiding in distance on good days. I've picked up 25-30' with old mids this season and adding the long Coyote pushed my mid D to where i was at with tweeners last year. All from the late acceleration. I think that helps me to hold on later getting a fuller if not a full hit. Coyote 347' max on a line drive Comet 340' line drive no flip from flat release and Buzzz Z to 330' -that is rare. Last year my Buzzz record was 30low i think.

 

[Blake_T1]

Can you see the rip point in your own throws? I bet none of the throwers do themselves. If they were able to see it immediately after the throw for themselves that would give clear as day feedback to where they are now.

yes. what i've found is that it doesn't really matter... the launch speed and nose angle reflect this right away as well.

the method i'm working on teaching right now involves no chop, just moving the hand along the arc at low speeds with minimal shoulder rotation.

have only worked with students on a handful of throws so far, but one of them was able to stationary throw a gazelle 425' while doing it.

i mainly posted dan's arc in order to explain why he throws so fast/far (65mph+ launch speeds). the timing and flow of his rail is very difficult to duplicate and requires a tremendous amount of hand strength to hang onto the disc while throwing with that arc shape.

 

[Blake_T1]

i will try to add the disc and arm to the diagrams later.

 

[soupdeluxe]

Hey Blake
This is very interesting. I like how you tied the inability to hang on with a loose pivot to the ideal or even close to the ideal release point. Bottom line is my discs are leaving early due to a loose pivot as well as too fast too early. I find that when field practicing my first 20 min or so are garbage. I am to jacked up, for lack of a better word and, try to throw too hard. Once I settle down I get better at everything. It would be fun to see throws of people looking down instead of just side and back views. It might be much easier to diagnose issues for the untrained eye like mine. Thanks again
SD
PS When compairing myself to the three diagrams I don't like what I see. I'm have a triple major: shoulder turning and early acceleration and loose pivot.

 

[soupdeluxe]

Im back
Just had to go out and try out something that stood out loud to me in the diagrams. MB moving the disc on a straight line not directly across his chest but from outside to inside to the power pocket. This creates that 90 degree abrupt change in direction at the chop. My thow I would imagine would be round. Anyhow I tried this and had good success throwing long and was able to feel it better. Does this method punish less for early shoulder turn than straight across the nipples? It does not forgive early speed. This varies a bit from what I was doing. I was throwing using Brads shoulder drill were you stand closed and bring it into the pocket. Prob with this is I can't get my leg or hip cleared. By bringing it in MB style I can stand more open and clear my leg better as well. One last question, is MBs arc extra elongated due to his forward motion or would his stand still look like this also? Thanks
SD

 

[Blake_T1]

Sd: it actually punishes worse for early shoulder but makes it easier to correct early shoulder as well.

He basically does his first turn and gets the disc to the pocket when his right shoulder is almost pointing at the target. Reaching that point gives a natural pause point for the shoulder turn

As for his arc length, i just didnt draw equal weight forward arm extension. However, even if i did draw it to scale his circle is still larger.

 

[JR]

Can you see the rip point in your own throws? I bet none of the throwers do themselves. If they were able to see it immediately after the throw for themselves that would give clear as day feedback to where they are now.

yes. what i've found is that it doesn't really matter... the launch speed and nose angle reflect this right away as well.

the method i'm working on teaching right now involves no chop, just moving the hand along the arc at low speeds with minimal shoulder rotation.

have only worked with students on a handful of throws so far, but one of them was able to stationary throw a gazelle 425' while doing it.

i mainly posted dan's arc in order to explain why he throws so fast/far (65mph+ launch speeds). the timing and flow of his rail is very difficult to duplicate and requires a tremendous amount of hand strength to hang onto the disc while throwing with that arc shape.

That is all fine and dandy for those who are accustomed to it. An inexperienced learner might recognize slips to the left and that's it. People don't recognize different speeds that well unless the difference is massive so it ain't a good enough training tool. Radar would help there. Most developing players have nose angle trouble too so it ain't gonna show them what they need. There is a clear reason for immediate high speed video feedback in training in all sports. I spoke to the Finnish representative of Dartfish and he said there aren't any sports where their system hasn't improved form and results where the system has been applied. He's trained several Finnish Olympic athletes. Medal winning ones too who changed technique and improved personal records as a result.

That slow moving is always a good idea and 425' anything from a stand still is excellent indeed! I lack the necessary hand strength and health obviously to duplicate what Dan does. Out to in motion to the right pec position didn't lose me anything. Early shoulders or late last year. For me hyzer flips from steeper angles were easier with out to in arm rail than close to both pecs but flat and annied shots are equal or slightly easier with close to both pecs. I've kept on throwing approach drives with close to both pecs pulls even when i used out to in with distance shots. Better consistency across slippery vs dry tees with close to both pecs shots.

 

[Blake_T1]

with disc:

 

[soupdeluxe]

Hey Blake
Went out and tried the MB inside out throw again this morning. Had great results as long as I did not come into the pocket too hot. I think the reason I thought that this method did not punish early shouder turn as bad is bringing it in this way I don't hit my left side when I turn early. It does seem easier to correct though. What I like about this also is if I bring it in slow from outside in I can really for the first time feel a large abrupt direction change when the arm chops. I am also holding the disc tighter aka no loose pivot. It does feel as though I can't get my arm moving as quickly or fluidly but I cannot argue with my results. I don't need to get my arm moving as quick into the pocket. I think you have also said early arm speed is overrated the speed out is the real deal. I hope one day to get this through my thick skull. I heard somewere that golf is mostly played in the 6 inches between your ears and I believe it. I think that one of my biggest enemies is trust and confidence. I field throw allot and play pretty sparingly. I know how far I can throw distance wise in my field but when I step up at a course to a hole that I can reach I think to myself there is no way I can get there unless I put a little mustard on it. This almost always results in early release so next hole I try even harder. Anyway the diagrams have spoken to me in a way words have not. Thank you.
SD

 

[Blake_T1]

Thanks for the feedback, sd.

The thing that happens is a physics trick. The abrupt directional change causes the disc edge to pull around the turn and makes it think its got an angular velocity based on the radius of the blue circle.

You really dont have to move fast, just have to make sure to hang onto it all the way. You can make the disc leave faster than your arm was moving.

 

[ELItheICEman]

This thread is gold. Thanks Blake, I'll be putting this to work the next time I hit the practice field!

 

[Blake_T1]

Thanks, eli.


Something i noticed is that most of the very long golf-shot pros generally have some form of enlarged radius circle caused by their flare out (rooted in body positions and entry angles).

 

[sidewinder22]

Something i noticed is that most of the very long golf-shot pros generally have some form of enlarged radius circle caused by their flare out (rooted in body positions and entry angles).

Talking about body positions I think most players struggle to just get their body out of the way of momentum. They never pivot or clear into the backswing and/or start too early with the hips and shoulders and lose posture. Maintaining good width between the upper arm and the chest about 90 degrees or better throughout the throw is critical to snap. When the upper arm collapses too tight to the chest and they never get the elbow forward of the shoulder so they drastically reduce the power pocket or kill it completely.

Your graphs illustrates this well how Dan's reachback is wider and comes in maintaining better width of the upper arm from the chest and finishing wide. Barry Shultz is very prominent with the wide backswing. Get Bubba Watson Wide! I think what your illustration lacks is typically the shoulder spinner reaching back around more than the target line with the arm so the arc begins from the start of the downswing.

 

[soupdeluxe]

Hey Blake
I am still working on this with good if not great results. I got a Roc out to 290 a few times now and am pleased as punch. I was wondering if you could clarify something for me. You mentioned you don't need to bring the disc in fast to the pocket you just need to hang on and then support it with the following quote.
Holding on from the critical point to the ideal release point has some tricks to it. The "key turn" of the wrist to the forward/down position helps hang on without adding grip pressure (it changes the ergonomics). What exactly do you mean by " key turn of the wrist"? I interpret this as wrist opens from neutral to past and then you move your hand to angle downward? I'm curious how this strengthens grip without adding grip pressure. I have not felt this but I may not awareness to feel this at this point. I also have been getting releases off my middle finger a little more often? Thanks
SD
PS This whole going from a small radius and flaring out to a large radius and what that does to disc flight and speed is so cool. It makes it easy to feel, still a challenge to execute consistantly but easier to troubleshoot. I know I'm gushing but I feel as though I am not guessing anymore. I picture the rail and try to make my hand follow it and hang on till the end.

 

[Blake_T1]

Soup: depeinging upon your form and hand size you may or may not be doing this. Many large handed throwers talk a lot about tumb pinch or thumb push. Basically, as you pass the critical point you want to hold your thumb down and push your thumb forward (this does not mean to point e thumb lower). The end result is a small rotation of the forearm that helps you hold on more easily and is equivalent to the "wrist breaking" portions of a golf or baseball swing.

To understand this: fill a water bottle about 35-40% full. Hold the bottle like you're reaching back with it and the bottom of the bottle is the bottom of the handle. (you will need to tilt it upwards slightly). Thr water should be settled at the bottom of the bottle. Slowly trace the rail. The water should stay in the bottom of the bottle.

As you approach critical point start increasing speed. As you enter hit territory the water should abruptly shift (all of the water at once) to the top of the bottle.

If the water splashes out of control, you moved your arm faster than the bottle's center of gravity moved.

What you are going for is a very abrupt "crash" where all the water shifts to the front of the bottle with no rebound splash. To achieve this with a good pace you'll find you have to rotate your forearm a little as it enters half-hit territory. As you work on that, pay attention to your thumb and you will see what i was talking about.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Blake is right...

Here's my take on it.

The pivot is a the thing you are TRYING to make happen. It's the release of the head of the bat, the release of the shaft in golf... Both points of maximum extension where all the levers line up.

Only, in disc golf we let go of the bat at the hit (which in all sports occurs before maximum extension). So we never actually reach that point... But we still need to try to attain it.

 

[soupdeluxe]

Blake
Been doing the water bollle drill. You can really tell when your arm moves faster than the bottles center of gravity. I find when I do my thumb/forearm and don't violate the center of gravity I can get the water to go from bottom to top with minimal rebound. I take it though you want the water to act as though it is a solid once it hits the end. I was not doing this during my throws, at least conciously. I have given it a whirl during my last few sessions so we are at that awkward doesnt feel right stage. More fun to work on. Thanks for the tip and example
SD