The SW22 Swim Move

[disc-golf-neil]

I can't quite tell but are you defending the 'punch down' concept and also including a pulley being an accurate representation of the forces at play with the off arm?

When I hunch my shoulders forward a lot and punch the off arm down and close to the side of the body I feel it clearly pulling on my throwing arm in a way that naturally brings it closer to a hunched power pocket position.

It feels like it stretches and loads the muscles in the upper back more.

When I play around with moving the off arm in other places I don't feel this as much as if I more forcefully push it down.

 

[RowingBoats]

When I hunch my shoulders forward a lot and punch the off arm down and close to the side of the body I feel it clearly pulling on my throwing arm in a way that naturally brings it closer to a hunched power pocket position.

It feels like it stretches and loads the muscles in the upper back more.

When I play around with moving the off arm in other places I don't feel this as much as if I more forcefully push it down.

And, this is something you are saying is relevant to a backhand swing? I am confused lol.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I can't quite tell but are you defending the 'punch down' concept and also including a pulley being an accurate representation of the forces at play with the off arm?

However imperfect this information is, when I attempt to utilize it, it produces a helpful feeling that I never clearly felt from other advice.

Do you not feel what I described in my last reply when you try the shadow motion?

 

[RowingBoats]

However imperfect this information is, when I attempt to utilize it, it produces a helpful feeling that I never clearly felt from other advice.

Do you not feel what I described in my last reply when you try the shadow motion?

I don't even understand what you are describing with hunched shoulders lol. I definitely do not hunch my shoulders in the swing.

I will say that there is a helpful tidbit in her post, and that is that this stuff is only relevant or worth even considering once you have otherwise sound form. This is definitely not a component of the main sauce.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I don't even understand what you are describing with hunched shoulders lol. I definitely do not hunch my shoulders in the swing.

Scapular protraction shown in the second part of this vid (bear hug, hulk arms, rounded upper back, etc.)
It seems like most pros scapula don't retract until the follow through.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

This is what it looks like to feel it in a shadow move. I'm not trying to move my right arm but it wants to move in that way.
It feels like my right scapular wants to retract, but if I resist that by forcing it to stay protracted (trying to keep the upper back rounded), instead it makes my elbow want to drive forward with a little bit of torso rotation.

View attachment IMG_4883.mov

 

[RowingBoats]

This is what it looks like to feel it in a shadow move. I'm not trying to move my right arm but it wants to move in that way.
It feels like my right scapular wants to retract, but if I resist that by forcing it to stay protracted (trying to keep the upper back rounded), instead it makes my elbow want to drive forward with a little bit of torso rotation.
View attachment 332445
View attachment 332444

So you are attempting to literally implement the pulley concept? I think you are going down a super wrong path with this idea.

This seems like you are trying to be active in a bizarre way and it might help to throw heavy objects to feel how this isn't what you are after.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

So you are attempting to literally implement the pulley concept? I think you are going down a super wrong path with this idea.

This seems like you are trying to be active in a bizarre way and it might help to throw heavy objects to feel how this isn't what you are after.

I'll try to find something heavy to mess around with but you also say you don't hunch your shoulders / round your upper back? It looks like that's really common among pros as they come into and are in the power pocket.

 

[RowingBoats]

I'll try to find something heavy to mess around with but you also say you don't hunch your shoulders / round your upper back? It looks like that's really common among pros as they come into and are in the power pocket.

I get what you mean by hunched now and I think that is a component of having a taut oblique sling.

I still do not agree with the way you are trying to conceptualize the off arm though. It isn't used to literally pull your body in a jerky way like that video is demonstrating. Most people are probably better off just putting their off hand on their pants pocket and not letting it actively interfere, but the 'swim move' is a leverage manipulation to me, not a pulley system.

To go back to the concept of ripping something apart being relevant to this thread. To rip something apart you hold part of it still and leverage against that, you don't pulley your arms in opposite directions.

 

[RowingBoats]

Scapular protraction shown in the second part of this vid (bear hug, hulk arms, rounded upper back, etc.)
It seems like most pros scapula don't retract until the follow through.

One thing this video did teach me is that Holyn is pretty ripped lol.

 

[sidewinder22]

Holyn was also teaching squishing the bug with the rear leg last year. She's an athletic beast with not the most efficient form.

Try your punch move in a pool with a throwing motion(or one-arm hammer toss), it's a very weak move. A pulley is a lever with the fulcrum in the middle(spine) so you are getting a 1:1 ratio. When you swim the fulcrum is the rear shoulder or closer to it so the lever is much longer and get more like a 4:1 ratio or something.

Note how Paige's rear arm starts in front of her body and ends up behind it so she levered her whole upper body from it like starting the lawnmower. It's definitely not a punch.

 

[Sheep]

Just saw this, looks like Holyn thinks of it as a punch down, unless she's changed her view since this vid.



I never saw anyone call it a punch down before but that's how I was thinking of it since that's how it first looked to me on the people who keep it more to their side instead of bringing it across the abdomen.

I called it punch down for a year while I was trying to understand it. I even had a bit of a discussion with SW22 about it as he kinda rolled his eyes at me.
Now that I've spend 2 years looking and thinking and talking and studying.

I can tell you "how" to do it, but how everyone describes it is ... well wrong.
Drew is the only one who actually describes it right. he says he "lets his arm fall."

Trying to punch down, double move, or punch through will just make for a shoulder hit without the body.

The trick is learning to do it naturally so its providing an anchor. vs trying to force it. This is also why I'm not a huge fan of the throw your off arm back to create the shoulder load that overthrow teaches. You're spelling yourself out for more trouble.

Pros (and all of us) say a lot of nonsense that isn't actually true. This is one of those statements about a movement that just doesn't end up making sense if you think about it for a minute though no? What would literally punching down accomplish, even in theory?

"double move"

This is what it looks like to feel it in a shadow move. I'm not trying to move my right arm but it wants to move in that way.
It feels like my right scapular wants to retract, but if I resist that by forcing it to stay protracted (trying to keep the upper back rounded), instead it makes my elbow want to drive forward with a little bit of torso rotation.
View attachment 332445
View attachment 332444

100% convinced your a slingshot/coach t plant now.

So you are attempting to literally implement the pulley concept? I think you are going down a super wrong path with this idea.

This seems like you are trying to be active in a bizarre way and it might help to throw heavy objects to feel how this isn't what you are after.

"double move"

Holyn was also teaching squishing the bug with the rear leg last year. She's an athletic beast with not the most efficient form.

Try your punch move in a pool with a throwing motion(or one-arm hammer toss), it's a very weak move. A pulley is a lever with the fulcrum in the middle(spine) so you are getting a 1:1 ratio. When you swim the fulcrum is the rear shoulder or closer to it so the lever is much longer and get more like a 4:1 ratio or something.

Note how Paige's rear arm starts in front of her body and ends up behind it so she levered her whole upper body from it like starting the lawnmower. It's definitely not a punch.
View attachment 332484

Uli was teaching squish the bug also. All these players who are good players, but cant seem to muster up the podiums are trying to become coaches, and that's all and good, but... They have no clue what they are saying half the time. Uli tries to hard and is a bit washed up as a player overall and is trying to find some use for himself. And they are trading their name for coaching.
Just cause you play good doesn't mean you can tell others how to do it.

I remember some of my first golf lessons when I was young. It was some guy who coudln't make it as a pro-am. And he wasn't super far off on a coaching level, but he didn't actually know how to coach either. he was trying to break things down in to really unecessary movements and stuff, vs letting things go more naturally.

There is no secret sauce, no secret "double move".

I do think there are a few ways for us to utilize our off arm, but its not some magical "punch down and throw 50 further."

The other problem is that the people who are going to try the "punch down" and the "double move" are already people who are not throwing very far for starters, and the over rotation motion you'll gain from the punch down or double move will give you distance. And it will seem like a magic pill. But it's not. Your swing was already so arm driven and not body driven, you're basically getting a short version of spin and throw, but just with the shoulders only.

 

[RowingBoats]

Try your punch move in a pool with a throwing motion(or one-arm hammer toss), it's a very weak move.

The pool idea is so good but I have never actually tried it. I think Drk Evans recommends that too.

Throwing a hammer though, is one of the best things people can do to figure out how the body naturally wants to perform the action. And if you are going to try throwing hammers, make it something that you spend some actual time on! I suspect a lot of people might read the advice, throw a couple of hammers, and call it good. I maintain that a whole lot of the nuances we get into here are very close to instinctual once you get out of your own way. Trying to throw a hammer smoothly and not necessarily far is what helped me. When you get somewhat competent at it your arm itself should be able to stand in for the hammer weight.

There is no secret sauce, no secret "double move".

I agree there is no secret special move. I think I disagree that there is no secret sauce. There is nothing immensely unintuitive about swinging with power IF you actually, truly apply instinctual movement patterns and don't hijack your entire swing into some unique herky jerky frisbee toss with oomph.

I know that is probably what you mean too lol.

 

[Sheep]

I agree there is no secret special move. I think I disagree that there is no secret sauce. There is nothing immensely unintuitive about swinging with power IF you actually, truly apply instinctual movement patterns and don't hijack your entire swing into some unique herky jerky frisbee toss with oomph.

I know that is probably what you mean too lol.

Yeah.
I meant "no magic pill" in the comment.

Now, so, no secret sauce.

But you can add zhuzh to your throw. And I think that's what you meant. =)

That's the biggest of big things right there though.
"Don't hijack your swing."

Things like squish the bug, double move, punch down and other things when done as some sorta "secret sauce" will hijack your swing.

And to be as clear as to why I usually say "secret sauce," it's because people are always trying to do that "add this to your swing and throw 50 feet further."
So.. like dipping my dried out shitty chicken wing in some secret sauce is going to make it better?

You gotta start with something good and throw in some zhuzh. =)

 

[timothy42b]

And to be as clear as to why I usually say "secret sauce," it's because people are always trying to do that "add this to your swing and throw 50 feet further."

Basically this is every article in every ball golf magazine ever published. There's a reason it's usually but not always wrong.

 

[Sheep]

Basically this is every article in every ball golf magazine ever published. There's a reason it's usually but not always wrong.

Yeah, a lot of that stuff is proper form clarifications in ball golf. Or tricks to generally help you get your swing on plane, etc. Like low to high swings, and I just saw one with a high to low swing recently. and that was kinda neat how it was described.


There isn't any of that in disc golf. All that style of content is the "oh no no, dont do that, do this" shorts or video's where they are trying to maxamize view retention, throw out some gimmick for you that will work with your poor swing and get you hooked on their content, regardless if its right or not.

And almost all of them are WRONG. They are gimmicks, not actual things that will improve your overall swing. They might just bandaid it.