ThighMaster move from DG Spin Doctor

Old-timer here: everybody needs to keep doing what they're doing. Two things:

  1. When I started, the best we had was Blake T's (and Dave D's) semi-cryptic posts at DGR. The work that Sidewinder, Josh, Brychanus, and Janni does is super valuable, and I watch all your content
  2. Sometimes I don't get a particular concept from one coach, but when another of you present the same concept a different way, it clicks. Yes, I know Seabas22 or Dan Beto did x thing first, but Josh or Janni presented it in a way that clicked for me just as Seabas' hammer analogy clicked. I don't see this as stealing or repeating information, just re-contextualizing. We all learn differently; the more options we have for coaching, the better
 
Old-timer here: everybody needs to keep doing what they're doing. Two things:

  1. When I started, the best we had was Blake T's (and Dave D's) semi-cryptic posts at DGR. The work that Sidewinder, Josh, Brychanus, and Janni does is super valuable, and I watch all your content
  2. Sometimes I don't get a particular concept from one coach, but when another of you present the same concept a different way, it clicks. Yes, I know Seabas22 or Dan Beto did x thing first, but Josh or Janni presented it in a way that clicked for me just as Seabas' hammer analogy clicked. I don't see this as stealing or repeating information, just re-contextualizing. We all learn differently; the more options we have for coaching, the better
I just had an "ah ha" thanks to you. Let me know if it seems useful.

I think I might make my next video titled "Bent out of Shape" or something.

I'm going to playfully talk about literally every disagreement or "violent agreement" that comes to mind out of the past 6 months here, in YouTube comments, or in the browser "DG-o-sphere" as I toast and roast my own current form, and conclude with a bit of a "chill the F out" conclusion at the end.

Benefit of using my own form is I can say everything I want to say without dragging anyone through the mud, and I get to be as playful as I want while mostly hurting my own feelings.

Also still going to do a couple Early vs. late vids. Ulibarri still on deck but I didn't want to upset everyone in the universe just by saying trying a true Crow hop can teach you something. I'm kind of over the hesitation now lol
 
I just had an "ah ha" thanks to you. Let me know if it seems useful.

I think I might make my next video titled "Bent out of Shape" or something.

I'm going to playfully talk about literally every disagreement or "violent agreement" that comes to mind out of the past 6 months here, in YouTube comments, or in the browser "DG-o-sphere" as I toast and roast my own current form, and conclude with a bit of a "chill the F out" conclusion at the end.

Benefit of using my own form is I can say everything I want to say without dragging anyone through the mud, and I get to be as playful as I want while mostly hurting my own feelings.

Also still going to do a couple Early vs. late vids. Ulibarri still on deck but I didn't want to upset everyone in the universe just by saying trying a true Crow hop can teach you something. I'm kind of over the hesitation now lol
Love it! Also, "bent out of shape" sounds like my form
 
Love it! Also, "bent out of shape" sounds like my form
Lmao nice.

I think I might take a slightly more positive spin like "It's going to be ok". Let's see how I feel this week whether it comes out full on fun and silly or ironic and slightly (but playfully) sarcastic.
 
Yea, I guess you don't read emotions and nuances like self-irony.

Again, this technique has nothing to do with any of your techniques as far as I can tell, but I guess you're pissed off that "plagiarize" your inventions. Or that's how it sounds to me.

Also I've heard from several sources that you have taught me the form I now teach. I haven't told anyone this, so I wonder what the source might be...

We had a few convos years ago, but I wouldn't go as far as saying I learned my style from you, especially since I've been in the game this long and spend quite a lot of my time studying this silly game.

These things add up.

Tell you what. If you leave my video comment sections, I leave your forum? Win win?
It seems that you are the one pissed off here and can't handle a discussion. I welcome your input on the forum here, I prefer to not live in an echo chamber and enjoy a good debate. It's funny that I'm a subscriber on your channel and I'm agreeing with your advice and helping your youtube algothrium with a comment, so I'm left wondering how this would have played out if I had actually disagreed with your advice. I've never posted any comments disagreeing with you nor said anything about you plagiarizing me. It is interesting how you say you don't watch my vids, but you somehow know enough about what I teach to publicly call out my name and Heavydisc and tell people to not watch our content.

I recall someone asking me about your video tilted "Do Not Rotate the Hips", and yeah I told them that I thought you learned it from some of our DMs. I sent you the Malaska vid with the same vid title name, and many other vids about squishing the bug.



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My point exactly. Here, you are claiming ownership of what I say and teach.

And no, I don't watch your videos. I watched a few some time ago, and the fact that you have to prove your point by looking for my Facebook posts from several years ago speaks for itself. Yes, I thought for a while that S&T had a point, but now I don't. Overthrow was there, too. You might be the only coach who never made a mistake; congrats on that. Must feel good.

I have no problem debating ideas, but I'm put off by your "I said it before you" style. This is the exact reason I don't want to be part of the DG Coaching community: Our values are too different. As Josh mentioned above, this is, sadly, the way coaching works in Disc Golf. You have to be the first to say something, anything, so that you can claim ownership and dismiss everyone else even if they improve from your original.
 
Oh yeah ultimate is tied to universitys by a ridiculous degree. So would you say that in UK discgolf (if I remember it right) doesnt have as many academics or is it not as apparent in these guys?

Definitely not as many in disc golf. In ultimate, the folks who haven't played at university really stood out as outliers. I guess disc golf is slightly more academic than the general population, not least because of the ex-ultimate folks, but it's much closer to a normal cross section of the population.

Anyone can play disc golf. Ultimate requires at least 10 like-minded folks, ideally more like 30 folks, who all have free time at the same time, who all are interested in new things (sometimes just for the sake of being different and interesting) or want to make new friends. Universities are perfect. It's happening more and more in schools these days, but adult clubs forming from one keen person is still hard to imagine - but that definitely happens in disc golf.
 
I'm honestly confused what the issue is in this case because all I see Sidewinder commenting was that he talked about what he perceived to be the same concepts before in a couple of his videos. I do not see an explicit claim about ownership in the comments, at least as they stand right now.


This is where people *should* be listening to me on what is going on. I explained it the nice way and I see that it was glossed over despite 3 pages of posts after I bounced in.

Getting on everyone's video and posting "oh I did this video" is basically like jumping in someone's face and going "neener neener, I did it first."

The comment is unnecessary and on top of that its self promoting in someone's comments like that which is bad form.

Getting bashed over and over again when I speak up about not getting credit for stuff when I have people make video's and say word for word what I typed in forums or chats is frustrating. And now everyone in here is having a bash fest and not looking at the actual issue.

Nobody in Jaani's comment section was asking for sidewinders video's in there. It just literally looks like the dude is rolling in on a video and going "Oh I did that first." And it's on a lot of video's. If were going to assist each other with comments, we need to comment on what's in the video and promote discussion in the comments sections. Saying "I did it first" is just as dumb as the idiotic comments people make where they just say nasty things. Because the value is equally crap.

TLDR: If it makes me cringe, you're definitely doing something bad.
 
Okay.

Gonna drop this out here, because this is what I see. Now that I finally got through all the stupidity of those pages. Also, ... Socrates discussing disc golf form. I don't even wanna think about that headache.


So, were gonna give some people a pass for talking a certain way, but others don't get that same pass? Were gonna be hypocrites bashing on some people the way they speak, but other people just. were gonna act like they are not doing the same thing?

Is it because they have some level of "respect in the community" so they get to go by without being called out for their attitude?

Ever wonder why I get shitty with folk? This is why. Cause people are hypocrites and will only call out one side of the argument and not the other.

The way sidewinder is speaking to Jaani is really nose deaf. I'd be getting irritated too. Because everything, to me if we look at the whole story from video, to video comment, the into DGCR thread like its a "I did it first." and... Like nobody cares. It's not a necessary comment. Ya'll would fucking loose your minds if I was jumping on every youtube video and talking about how I did it first, or started self promoting my video's on your comments.

But no, lets give a pass for a bad attitude to some, but other people, lets make sure we attack them emotionally cause .. whatever reason. It's so dumb.

You all can think however you want. I don't attack others emotionally or respond emotionally. You can keep that fairy tale in your head all you want and keep painting a false picture of me when you don't know me in the slightest. You just see a guy making direct statements online and get butthurt and lash out. But then someone else gets a bit sideways with someone, and its "omg lets defend this guy."

Whatever.
If you visit Nashville.
Let me know. we'll go play.
If you still think I'm such a piece of shit after a round of golf, I'll give you my shirt.

But this hypocritical attitude towards people needs to stop, cause all I see is someone gets shitty with another person, and they don't get called out, but the other person does.
 
Ya know, there are disciplines where they pin down intellectual territory, revise history, and generally chase the details. There are others where it is never sorted, you might speculate, but borrowing and stealing is all fair game as the result is what matters. Eventually, history might provide some clarity.

I suspect disc golf coaching is in the latter category. One reason I pay attention to SW, besides the fact that he seems to be a generous person, is that he's not constantly revising his stance. I think there's something to be said about continuity. I'm sure it doesn't generate the clicks, tho.
 
@Sheep If I am ever in Nashville again and you tell me your shirt size, I will buy you a shirt as long as you don't mind if it's a Marvel character (you get to pick!). And a 6-pack.

I'm assuming anyone even replying at this point is deeply passionate about our little frisbee game like me, so...
This is where people *should* be listening to me on what is going on. I explained it the nice way and I see that it was glossed over despite 3 pages of posts after I bounced in.

Getting on everyone's video...
FWIW: @Sheep I saw what you said dude and was mostly trying to keep my head down (LOL).

FWIW2: this thread is another classic "everyone has a point here if you put yourself in their shoes" situation.

1. I replied first, and attempted to make a constructive mechanics comment and start a discussion about a crossover between @sidewinder22 and @Jaani. These days, I'm increasingly careful to start anything I say with a "mechanics first" approach. I don't really care who said what in that case in the same way that I only care about what's true in my day job regardless of who discovered it. I tend to be high on the "giving credit" dimension and I like to cite sources when I can. There is a difference between me acknowledging sources/help from my coach/pointing out precedents and believing that every concept or its origin is sacrosanct. I already said other people do it differently and I live in peace with them, so I really had nothing else to add and hoped we would just talk about contents, but that's not how we roll at DGCR (and most online communities have some version of this).

2. @Jaani chimed in as soon as someone criticized his video here after they said they didn't watch it. He could have said nothing, but I understand someone for speaking up when they are criticized.

3. @sidewinder22 clearly thinks that he covered the same concept before, there is apparently some history of idea-sharing there, and he then commented on the video to share what he believes are the same concept in his content. I guess what I perceive is that he feels like he pointed Jaani to this before, then in a video where Jaani said there was a small chance it would revolutionize bracing and asked for comments, Sidewinder commented that (in Sidewinder's perception) he had already covered this before in more than one context. Clearly there was a lot more "behind the scenes" in their discussions/relationship/etc., which is coming out in their somewhat acerbic tones (though I may be tone-deaf on the internet so my apologies if I'm somehow reading it wrong. @Jaani later mentioned he doesn't watch Sidewinder's videos, so the novelty claim would probably get under someone's skin in that case, if they believed they had already said or shared it before.

4. @Sheep Is pointing out that it can be perceived as annoying to make content and have someone pointing out that they said it before if there is no additional point or context. I don't talk about that much publicly, but when it's hard to tell if someone is trying to be helpful vs. something else, it can be frustrating and activating. Totally get that. Literally every coach I've talked to at this point has probably experienced that. @Jaani thematically has similar takes in this category, which can only be more frustrating if he in fact believes what he is saying is new.

FWIW3: as a neuropsychologist I understand why people are responding first with their limbic systems in the context of all of the above (including me). As a "limbic first" guy by personality I had to learn a lot of tools to not scorch the earth...

Okay.

Gonna drop this out here, because this is what I see. Now that I finally got through all the stupidity of those pages. Also, ... Socrates discussing disc golf form. I don't even wanna think about that headache.
Dude, you can't tell me you don't want to see this guy:
death-of-socrates.jpg

Cueing up a Destroyer like this bad boy:
Myron_Discobolus_450BC-e1440700424334.jpg



Toga optional, obviously.


So, were gonna give some people a pass for talking a certain way, but others don't get that same pass? Were gonna be hypocrites bashing on some people the way they speak, but other people just. were gonna act like they are not doing the same thing?...

But this hypocritical attitude towards people needs to stop, cause all I see is someone gets shitty with another person, and they don't get called out, but the other person does.
I get your point, rather than be too "on the nose" while people sort their own issues out I'll share something you reminded me of:

There is a book called "Why everyone (else) is a hypocrite." It's right up my alley and I know some of the work that led to the central thesis, but I didn't read it. Now I will tell you why.

Robert Kurzban was a tenured professor at Penn when I was somewhat close to the then department chair. I was at a happy hour with the chair the moment they received a text showing that news publicly broke about his inappropriate relationship with an undergraduate. You can imagine it was not the happiest hour.

I didn't read his book because even though it has a reputation for being quite good, I didn't want any dollars I might have spent on it to get back to that person.

I now know two evolutionary psychologists who have been quietly oustered from their departments after fraternizing with students or supervisees. Obviously it's not unique to people in that subdiscipline, but the relationship between what they study and what some people do in their private time is interesting, psychology, disc golf, or otherwise. 🤷‍♂️

Ya know, there are disciplines where they pin down intellectual territory, revise history, and generally chase the details. There are others where it is never sorted, you might speculate, but borrowing and stealing is all fair game as the result is what matters. Eventually, history might provide some clarity.

I suspect disc golf coaching is in the latter category. One reason I pay attention to SW, besides the fact that he seems to be a generous person, is that he's not constantly revising his stance. I think there's something to be said about continuity. I'm sure it doesn't generate the clicks, tho.
This is probably the main reason I too was attracted here in the first place, and remain here. It doesn't mean that I blindly consume it - if anything, it was mostly just the most comprehensive set of drills and ideas I had encountered, and in that case was an interesting basis for learning. When criticisms or disagreements came up, it always gave me a reference point that I could not find as comprehensively anywhere else. My own Fundamentals project was just an effort to add cohesion - in a way, Sidewinder's repository of writing and drills was an ideal space for someone like me because I could think about what he was showing, saying, and trying to make me feel and do and try to weave it all together. And it was fun and exciting for me. Mostly what I do now in the coaching/theory end is compare what I know or understand from those ideas with other concepts on the marketplace. I am still very happy to be coached by him and be as dutiful a student as I can be (which is an important part of being a student, but not the only part) as long as he will tolerate me. His patience and generosity asking for nothing in return should always be acknowledged.
 
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This seems like a fair take. It's part of why I am fully engaging with the more "reverse engineering" influx of folks recently, especially brought about by TechDisc's arrival. If I have predictions, I like them to be tested. If I don't think the tests are well-conceived or hypotheses could be better framed, I'll try to say it. I'm ok with receiving it in kind. I've enjoyed e.g. @disc-golf-neil 's posts and data and interactions in the form thread for that reason, and I'm learning from it too.
I think a lot of people in the community are yearning for some clearer testing of things backed up with some stats. Even though it's still unclear in many ways, it's easy to get a bit more clarity. It's really surprising not many people seem to be doing it on YT with the tech disc, so with bad editing, bad video quality, bad marketing, being an unknown person that's not an expert or veteran, yet a simple video 1 week ago of me testing wrist curling with the tech disc got 7.6k views, which seems to be quite a bit for DG unless you are really famous. People will even listen to minutes of voice over on a still image, especially if they're from Scandinavia where they have a higher attention span according to YT metrics, LOL.
 
Cueing up a Destroyer like this bad boy:
Myron_Discobolus_450BC-e1440700424334.jpg



Toga optional, obviously.
I was actually thinking about posting that guy as well when looking into that tilted spiral thing. All I got was that ancient greeks had words for balance, reachback and so on, but also talked about the beauty that is in a sports move which I think is really cool. Maybe we should have that too along with youtube channels teaching how to beautify a throw.

Gonna drop this out here, because this is what I see. Now that I finally got through all the stupidity of those pages. Also, ... Socrates discussing disc golf form. I don't even wanna think about that headache.
If Socrates dropped in here to debate form we would all have a rude awakening with all the logical fallacies we make in discussion. Luckily the guy never typed, just talked to people which ultimately cost him his life.
 
I was actually thinking about posting that guy as well when looking into that tilted spiral thing. All I got was that ancient greeks had words for balance, reachback and so on, but also talked about the beauty that is in a sports move which I think is really cool. Maybe we should have that too along with youtube channels teaching how to beautify a throw.


If Socrates dropped in here to debate form we would all have a rude awakening with all the logical fallacies we make in discussion. Luckily the guy never typed, just talked to people which ultimately cost him his life.
@SocraDeez is (probably) not the original, but he'll smack me around in the best ways once in a while.

I would like to talk about beauty in form. Look at this beautiful man and his hip adduction in the tilted spiral w/ rear leg counterbalance:

Jpk6InY.gif


1713196351103.png


Can we talk about form and mechanics again? Pretty please with a cherry on top?
 
We can, Brychanus! I got you.

Just came back from a round, where I tried jaanis cue aaaand:

1. It doesn't put any more stress on my knees, quite the opposite. I could really feel my muscles being used, specially my front legs inner thigh.

2. I would suspect that when I feel those muscles activate, it would lead to a more solid brace, but I'm gonna have to film myself to be sure.

3. With a mental cue like that, i would believe that the timing in the swing could be easier to get.

4. Even with less focus on the rear leg and more on the plant leg, I still believe that people could improve their brace, a lot.

Can't wait to work more on this!

Good stuff @Jaani
 
He's not throwing, but he's got something going on with the trailing arm and toe drag situation.
 
FWIW for anyone who wants to play with it:

In my own form, I generally still have much better control of my balance and move on the rear side (which becomes the counterbalancing leg in transition) in standstills.

If I try to isolate the hip adduction component (which I tend to encode while moving in tilted balance myself), I can definitely firm it up to a greater or lesser degree.

It seems like I can either (1) cause it to happen by kicking back my plant leg toward the rear side (like Double Dragon or modified Ride the Bull drill) or (2) firm it up standing kind of inertly in my stance (squeeze the bull between the knees/thighmaster) or (3) hip adduction in the gym/lateral lunge.

Each one of them seems to improve my Hershyzer stride and abruptness of shift and kind of dynamically stabilize my rear leg in standstill or X-step transition. The rear leg counterbalance improves each way. Hypothesis: you can take a similar body lesson from each one, maybe they stabilize into the "same" thing in the mature move.

So I guess my initial "finding" is that it's possible to do (1) and then "lose it" as you transition to the plant (which I suspect may be happening in my current form especially in my X-step, related to a couple other things), in which case a little conscious attention to (2)/(3) seems to help.
 
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He's not throwing, but he's got something going on with the trailing arm and toe drag situation.
Just remembered SW sharing this with me at some point if you hadn't seen*:


*beyond the words: the "push and drag" described involves hip adduction+resistance in the backswing, and then is part of what collects the leg forward in the "drag"
 
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