Tournament Play and Minor Infractions.

[rickgz]

a simple lesson.

first, if you question anything called whatsoever, mark it on the score card and talk to the TD right after the round is over. never assume the person calling you on the rule knows what they are talking about. the TD is the ultimate authority at a tournament.

I should have done that. I only talked to the TD whom I know after the scores were posted. I had assumed that what the guy said was true and being that it was confirmed by another player, I took the strokes.

second, the rules are there for a reason. you should never feel bad about calling someone on the rule. the rules are designed for fair play, someone who gets upset at being called on a rule shouldn't be competing period. its one thing to disagree another thing to have a hissy-fit about it.

Agreed about the rules. I did take the first stroke without protest. I did get pissed about the 2nd one because of the branch issue. I said my piece and then did not mention it again until the round was over and calmly talked to the guy

third, make sure you understand the rules and put yourself in a position to not break them. if you have a habit of touching your mini while throwing, move your foot back an inch or two. problem solved. it is not the responsibility of your opponents to make sure you understand the rule, it is their responsibilty to make sure you abide by them.

AGREED!

this is cheating by the way. rules are not there for you to decide which ones you should and should not follow. it does not make for a fair comeptetion amongst all the competitors, essentially your card is playing a different set of rules from the others...cheating.

My comments are bolded.

This has been a very enlightening conversation. Thanks again for everyone who has participated. Now I got a scramble to get to.

Rick G

 

[rickgz]

Clarified how? What part of the rule isn't clear?

The part about about whether contact with the mini is allowed after the release of the disc but while your body is still in motion from the throw.

That part.

I will check back later as I got to get to scrambles!

Rick G

 

[agibson]

A definition used to be in the rules but was removed for some reason. A mini was defined as a disc between 7 and 15 cm in diameter and not more than 3 cm tall. It was probably an oversight that it was left out. I honestly am not sure whether that opens the issue up for interpretation or not.

So, in the rules we couldn't use a (empty? sealed?) can or bottle of beer. In the new rules we might be able to. We'd need to define "disc" I suppose... If a hockey can count of a disc, how much can we stretch it?

 

[agibson]

That is to say, in the _old_ rules we couldn't.

 

[JC17393]

The part about about whether contact with the mini is allowed after the release of the disc but while your body is still in motion from the throw.

That part.

I will check back later as I got to get to scrambles!

Rick G

Guess I needed to quote part C of 802.04...

C. Supporting point contact with or beyond the marker disc is permitted after the disc is released, except when putting.

Still not sure what needs clarification.

 

[discreid]

You did notice I said 6"s and not the allowed 10"

Rick G

FYI, 30cm is 11.8in.

 

[rickgz]

Guess I needed to quote part C of 802.04...


Still not sure what needs clarification.

That is the rule I should have known about as it might have made a difference in my being stroked. It is obvious to me now, that the guy who called me and the other who confirmed were unaware of this part of the rule.

In the future if I am called on this, the first thing I will ask if the contact happened before or after I released the disc? And then I will pull the rule book out.

Thank you for posting it.

Rick G

 

[Slammer]

To the original poster.... Play by the rules and you have no worries. It has always baffled me why people feel the need to stand right behind their mini. Give yourself some room. I wasn't there but have heard you cussed him out after he called you on this. Maybe tournament play isn't for you if that is how you respond to being called on a rules violation. I read that you hoped he got a speeding ticket on his way home to NC. I thought you were of grandmaster age and not a teenager. Man up......

 

[rickgz]

To the original poster.... Play by the rules and you have no worries. It has always baffled me why people feel the need to stand right behind their mini. Give yourself some room. I wasn't there but have heard you cussed him out after he called you on this. Maybe tournament play isn't for you if that is how you respond to being called on a rules violation. I read that you hoped he got a speeding ticket on his way home to NC. I thought you were of grandmaster age and not a teenager. Man up......

I am not going to say I wasn't pissed, as I was after the 2nd call when I was pretty sure I wasn't touching my mini and the branch moved it, but I never called him any names, only stating loudly that I felt it was BS and petty. He had only stated that my mini moved!

However during this discussion if you will take the time to read it through, it has come to light that the penalty was definitely not administered properly and perhaps I hadn't faulted at all if the contact came after I released my disc. So if you don't know the rules completey, including how to administer them, you should not call them or at least suggest a provisional and take it to the TD. I know the rules better now and hopefully if you show him this thread, he will too.

As for the speeding ticket, that was said tongue in cheek, asking how he would feel if he got an incidental speeding ticket by only 1 or 2 miles over the limit because it is the Law, which is kind of like how I felt when I was being called.

Peace,

Rick G

I did speek to him later, shook his hand

 

[jenb]

Two things.

Firstly, you are entitled to a warning first EVERY ROUND. Just because you got warned yesterday does not mean you don't get a warning first today.

Secondly, a lot of the time, people roll their toe forward onto the mini or disturb it AFTER RELEASE, which is perfectly legal. Doubt goes to the player. So unless it is very clear that you stepped on or kicked the mini AT THE TIME OF RELEASE, there should be no infraction.

 

[MikePinchico]

Now I have been stroked before
Rick G

Keep that to yourself

 

[bombmk]

802.04 Throwing from a Stance

B. When the disc is released, a player must:

1. Have at least one supporting point that is in contact with the lie; and,

2. Have no supporting point in contact with the marker disc or any object (including the playing surface) closer to the target than the rear edge of the marker disc; and,

3. Have all supporting points in-bounds.

800.02 Definitions
Lie
The spot on the playing surface behind the marker, upon which the player takes a stance in accordance with the rules. It is a line 30 centimeters in length extending back along the line of play from the rear edge of the marker disc.

There is actually a tiny gap in the way they have worded the rules/definitions:

If you move the marker before throwing, you have to move it back.

If you touch it when you release, its a footfault.

But the rules do not actually cover moving the marker during the throw, while still not touching it at release. (I said it was tiny )

And as the lie is defined by the marker, you would still technically be on your lie.

Now, I think we call all agree that this is where the fairness clause comes in, and would deem it a foot fault. But it would not hurt to have it specified.

 

[paulw]

FYI, 30cm is 11.8in.

I thought one centimeter was 0.393701 inches making 10 centimeters 3.93701 meaning 3 times 10 centimeters would be 30 centimeters and 3 times 3.93701 would end up being 11.81103 inches. . . or are all measurements just an approximation? (The French? We're depending on them for the distance of a meter?? Sheesh -- why not revert to hands and random horse heights?)

Oops -- I may be off topic by how much will require an estimation . . .

 

[krupicka]

The rules specify the conversion to the English system:
http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/800-introduction/80003-conversions
30cm = 11 3/4 in.

 

[prerube]

Well if 2 people called it then it was a clear infraction no matter how "petty"
After reading more of your posts I found your problem....you play in Ohio

OP here....

I did mention in my original post, that another person confirmed though he did tell me privately that he thought it was Petty.

However no notations of warning were made on the card. I was not told to rethrow even on the hole where the penalty was assessed and was allowed to hole out with the penalty noted when we were writing down the score.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I now have a much clearer understanding of the rules. I will always carry the rule book with me during Tournament rounds. I will not allow myself to be bullied again!

Side note#1 The previous weekend I participated in the PDGA National Seniors Championship held in conjunction with the National Seniors Games in which Disc Golf was a demonstration sport. I competed against the same fellow there (and beat him though I came in 4th). During those rounds, there was never a mention of any faults from anyone about my stance or anyone elses for that matter. As it was a local event here in Cleveland, I was proud to help the out of towners with the course, giving advice on lines ad other local kowledge. The person in question was thrilled to get this knowledge and thanked me for it. It was a fun filled event with no stress just the way it is suppose to be.

Side note #2 As this individual was an out of towner, I could not help but hope that as he drove home to NC that he just might get pulled over for going only 1 or 2 MPH over the limit and get a ticket. It is the law you know!

Thanks again for all of the honest advice. I think it is time to go throw a round with some of the new discs I won in the tourny. :clap:

Rick G

 

[rickgz]

Keep that to yourself

This discussion was getting way to serious. Thanks for the humor! :thmbup:

Rick G

 

[rickgz]

Well if 2 people called it then it was a clear infraction no matter how "petty"
After reading more of your posts I found your problem....you play in Ohio

LOL But it is my wife's fault. Her career brought us here 7 years ago. I am actually from Pittsburgh.

Rick G

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Petty? certainly, but it was an infraction.
I've seen someone get called on this in an event a several years ago, I don't recall the exact sequence of events, I just remember a big pissing match ensued and thinking to myself that I really don't see ¼-½ inch as being that significant. So much so that since that day, I consciously pput my forward foot ¼-½ inch behind my lie, specificaly so something like that can't be called into question. If I miss a putt, I guarandamntee it's because I screwed it up some other way, and not because I took my stance a whopping ½" farther away.

I see people who painstakingly place their foot right up to their mini, so that you can't even a blade of grass popping out between their foot and the mini, and I always wonder to myself, "Why put such mental effort into getting that close to your mini without touching it?" All they need to do is misstep and inadvertantly kick it... sounds like a good time.

After reading more of your posts I found your problem....you play in Ohio

:hfive:

 

[Stardoggy]

1"=2.54cm

30/2.54=11.81"

 

[Steve West]

I see people who painstakingly place their foot right up to their mini, so that you can't even a blade of grass popping out between their foot and the mini, and I always wonder to myself, "Why put such mental effort into getting that close to your mini without touching it?" All they need to do is misstep and inadvertantly kick it... sounds like a good time.


:hfive:

At least one person I know thought the rule was that your shoe HAD to touch the mini. (Which is not the case, by the way.)

Add "willingness to consult the rule book" as one of the important disc golf skills to develop.