Luke Humphries

[txmxer]

I guess it was DGLO, Humphries was "late" to his 12:30 tee time, however, he ran up to the box and threw in order on hole 1? Not sure if the specifics/details, so correct anything I'm missing.

Heinold informed him on 3 that he was par + 4 for missing his tee time in 1.

Set aside opinions about the rule and whether Luke failed to comply.

What allows Heinold to make a call with regards to a violation he did not witness?

Was there a tournament official present to observe Luke being late?

Note—it has been stated that Luke protested the ruling and the rules committee upheld the ruling all between holes 3&4. We have 2 RC members here I know of. Please clarify how a violation that was not witnessed can be called? Clarify what the protest and RC committee confirmation involved? Who specifically reviewed the call and the logic underpinning support of the call by an official not present at the incident.

If there was an official present at the time, why did that person not make the call? Sports don't do well with retroactive referring once the play is over and the next event occurs.

 

[biscoe]

There was no appeal to the RC. TD is the final arbiter of such things (as stated by the head of the RC in the other thread). Apparently Nate waffled for one reason or another after the initial call- could have been as simple as the players in the group when asked saying he was not late.

We make calls on things we did not witness with some frequency. Generally the process consists of asking the players in the group or any event staff on hand what they saw occur after it is reported to you by one person. Pure speculation: this one sounds to me like someone reported to Nate that Luke was late and Nate acting on it from there.

I have some issues with Heinold but imo this is ado over nothing. My only nit to pick is that I personally would not have dealt with it until after the round rather than going out on the course during the round to deliver the "news".

 

[glassila]

What allows Heinold to make a call with regards to a violation he did not witness?
Was there a tournament official present to observe Luke being late?

What about a situation when one player gets physical with another player? I would think that the word of the other players would be enough if it was not witnessed by a TD.

Actually, a lot of the examples of player misconduct in 3.03 could result in penalties/DQs if there were credible witnesses even if an official did not witness the misconduct themselves.

 

[ChrisWoj]

Whatever the ruling was through at least an hour after the round ended, ultimately they decided to remove the penalty strokes and let Luke skate with the par he threw.

 

[txmxer]

There was no appeal to the RC. TD is the final arbiter of such things (as stated by the head of the RC in the other thread). Apparently Nate waffled for one reason or another after the initial call- could have been as simple as the players in the group when asked saying he was not late.

We make calls on things we did not witness with some frequency. Generally the process consists of asking the players in the group or any event staff on hand what they saw occur after it is reported to you by one person. Pure speculation: this one sounds to me like someone reported to Nate that Luke was late and Nate acting on it from there.

I have some issues with Heinold but imo this is ado over nothing. My only nit to pick is that I personally would not have dealt with it until after the round rather than going out on the course during the round to deliver the "news".

Thanks. I just wanted clarification of how that call could be made since none of the players were interested in enforcing it.

I'm not sure how that aligns with the rules unless someone is a participant or a tournament official.

But, you run the events so it is how things are done.

Regarding things like disciplinary actions, taking statements from witnesses isn't really the same as initiating an action/rule/penalty.

 

[peabody]

. My only nit to pick is that I personally would not have dealt with it until after the round rather than going out on the course during the round to deliver the "news".

I as a player would want to know where my score stood so if I need to play safe to protect my lead or take chances to catch the leaders I could do so.

 

[txmxer]

What about a situation when one player gets physical with another player? I would think that the word of the other players would be enough if it was not witnessed by a TD.

Actually, a lot of the examples of player misconduct in 3.03 could result in penalties/DQs if there were credible witnesses even if an official did not witness the misconduct themselves.

Players are allowed and expected to make calls, so, not really the same thing. H. also addresses misconduct and makes it a special case for additional evidence.

Although not explicit, it seems to me the intent of the description of tournament official rules is that anyone not designated a tournament official or a player in the event during the round has no say in rulings.

If a player were in the woods and they were not on their lie per the rules, or maybe they moved a branch they should not have, would it be okay for a spectator to tell the TD about it and then the TD subsequently penalizes the player?

1.12 Tournament Officials

Last updated: Tuesday, January 24, 2023 - 10:57

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1. Only the Tournament Director, those Certified Officials (as defined in 1.11.A) that have been designated by the Tournament Director, or a designated PDGA Marshal PDGA Marshal as designated by the PDGA Director of Competition, are Tournament Officials for a given event.
2. Only Tournament Officials may make rulings at PDGA-sanctioned events beyond those calls allowed by the rules to be made by the players or playing group themselves.
3. Spectators are not Tournament Officials and may NOT make rulings. Players in the event who are not designated Tournament Officials and are not actively playing in the round (either have finished or have not yet started) are considered spectators.
4. Each Tournament Official must carry copies of the tournament/course rules, the Official Rules of Disc Golf, and the Competition Manual at all times.
5. If an appointed Tournament Official competes in the tournament, they may NOT officiate for any ruling within their own division other than as a member of a playing group as allowed by the rules.
6. A Tournament Official's ruling supersedes the ruling of the playing group, but an appeal may be made to the Chief Official who is the Tournament Director, or their appointed Chief Official.
7. The Tournament Director may empower volunteers to act as spotters for a specific spotting purpose, but the ruling of a spotter does NOT supersede the ruling of the group.
8. Video evidence or other media is not allowed for the purpose of making rulings for sanctioned play. Such evidence can only be used to document player misconduct (as defined in 3.03). Evidence of player misconduct may be evaluated at any time by the PDGA Disciplinary Committee.

 

[BraveThrower43]

Players are allowed and expected to make calls, so, not really the same thing. H. also addresses misconduct and makes it a special case for additional evidence.

Although not explicit, it seems to me the intent of the description of tournament official rules is that anyone not designated a tournament official or a player in the event during the round has no say in rulings.

If a player were in the woods and they were not on their lie per the rules, or maybe they moved a branch they should not have, would it be okay for a spectator to tell the TD about it and then the TD subsequently penalizes the player?

1.12 Tournament Officials

Last updated: Tuesday, January 24, 2023 - 10:57

---

1. Only the Tournament Director, those Certified Officials (as defined in 1.11.A) that have been designated by the Tournament Director, or a designated PDGA Marshal PDGA Marshal as designated by the PDGA Director of Competition, are Tournament Officials for a given event.
2. Only Tournament Officials may make rulings at PDGA-sanctioned events beyond those calls allowed by the rules to be made by the players or playing group themselves.
3. Spectators are not Tournament Officials and may NOT make rulings. Players in the event who are not designated Tournament Officials and are not actively playing in the round (either have finished or have not yet started) are considered spectators.
4. Each Tournament Official must carry copies of the tournament/course rules, the Official Rules of Disc Golf, and the Competition Manual at all times.
5. If an appointed Tournament Official competes in the tournament, they may NOT officiate for any ruling within their own division other than as a member of a playing group as allowed by the rules.
6. A Tournament Official's ruling supersedes the ruling of the playing group, but an appeal may be made to the Chief Official who is the Tournament Director, or their appointed Chief Official.
7. The Tournament Director may empower volunteers to act as spotters for a specific spotting purpose, but the ruling of a spotter does NOT supersede the ruling of the group.
8. Video evidence or other media is not allowed for the purpose of making rulings for sanctioned play. Such evidence can only be used to document player misconduct (as defined in 3.03). Evidence of player misconduct may be evaluated at any time by the PDGA Disciplinary Committee.

As a Marshall you could go to the group and ask if the offense was seen or noticed by any of the players or to clarify.

I wouldn't take a random bystander's word on what happened.

In my opinion in the OPs situation the person designated as the starter would have enough authority to tell a Marshall or TD that a player was late and that would be enough. They were given that job and that would be considered part of their duties and could be considered a tournament official.

 

[txmxer]

As a Marshall you could go to the group and ask if the offense was seen or noticed by any of the players or to clarify.

I wouldn't take a random bystander's word on what happened.

In my opinion in the OPs situation the person designated as the starter would have enough authority to tell a Marshall or TD that a player was late and that would be enough. They were given that job and that would be considered part of their duties and could be considered a tournament official.

Makes sense.

 

[roblee]

I'd expect that most TD rulings are not witnessed by the TD. There is no rule limiting who can pass along rule observations. Any person can inform an official, player, or any other person of a perceived violation. Only a qualified person can make a ruling but I'd expect them to corroborate the circumstances as BT43 said.

 

[BionicRib]

View attachment 316734
Whatever the ruling was through at least an hour after the round ended, ultimately they decided to remove the penalty strokes and let Luke skate with the par he threw.

If that's what happened then why are we even talking about this?

 

[txmxer]

If that's what happened then why are we even talking about this?

Cause I wanted to know what the method for determining a violation had occurred was. The players on the card did not complain nor was a tournament official present to witness the violation.

 

[BionicRib]

Cause I wanted to know what the method for determining a violation had occurred was. The players on the card did not complain nor was a tournament official present to witness the violation.

Ok. That's fair, but at the end of the day you'd probably need to get that answer from Nate and I'm pretty sure he won't post on here anymore

 

[txmxer]

Ok. That's fair, but at the end of the day you'd probably need to get that answer from Nate and I'm pretty sure he won't post on here anymore

Beggars can't be choosers.

Besides, we've got top tier TDs, RC members and DG legends that can weigh in if they so choose.

Can't think of a better place to get OPEN discussion on a DG rules question.

Alternatively, an explicit question should go to the RC.

 

[Steve West]

Beggars can't be choosers.

Besides, we've got top tier TDs, RC members and DG legends that can weigh in if they so choose.

Can't think of a better place to get OPEN discussion on a DG rules question.

Alternatively, an explicit question should go to the RC.

A lot of whom are kind of busy with a tournament out east this week. Wait a while.