Tournaments for new Old guy

[Alydar]

I am 55 and have spent the last year just enjoying the game after needing to find something my body can handle. I have recently wanted to throw my disc in the ring and enter some tourneys for 50+ amateurs.
I was about to pull the trigger when I saw who had already joined the tournament. This is for MA50.
A guy on there has a 950 rating, has won 30 tournaments, and is ranked in the top 20 in the Masters division. A second guy is pretty close to that.
Why are these guys allowed to play MA50 when they are obviously way beyond the talent around them? Wouldn't they want to play MA2 or MA3.
Is there not a tournament - short or MA4 I guess, where I am not playing elite amateurs at 55 years old?

Thanks

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

Welcome to the sport! Their rating is too good to qualify for either MA-2 or MA-3, so they'd have to play MA-1 or even MPO if they didn't play something age protected for which their age qualifies them. While I would agree they should be playing pro masters (aka MP-40 or MP-50) once they're up in the 930's, they're not bound to that by rule currently. Anybody who turns at least 50 in the calendar year is eligible for MA-50, even if they're 5 strokes away from being in the top 500 players in the whole world.

Same thing happened to me for a tournament coming up this Saturday. I'm competitive with other 880-900ish players in MA-50 now, and I just saw a 943 rated guy sign up. If we both play to our averages, he should cream all of us, probably beating 2nd place by about 10 or 12 strokes for the 36 hole c-tier.

I don't find that to be honorable to be honest. Back when I first entered sanctioned events in 1998 I actually tied for first in Am-2 at a big state level tournament (choked it away on a playoff hole) and always finished in the top 5 out of like 30 or more players, so I moved up to Am-1 like a man and never looked back, even though it meant way less in winnings for me. There was no rating system in place for a good year yet at that time and I could've stayed in Am-2 and won gobs of plastic, but I didn't want to be known as a sandbagger. Shame was the only thing preventing sandbagging back then. I love the ratings system and agree it should be used for old players now too. If you're 950 you should absolutely have to play pro masters.

My rating fell to below 900 for the first time ever this year but I refused to enter Am-3 and take away prizes from newcomers and kids. I could have done that without breaking any rules. I'm not ever going to do that.

There is one instance where good oldsters playing MA-2 or MA-3 isn't sandbagging in my eyes, and that's to earn enough points to get into worlds for the next year. The points system for entry into worlds is stupid in my opinion, where you earn points for each person you beat in a tournament, and the MA-3/MA-2 divisions have gobs of players in them. Age protected worlds entry requires something like 1000 and 500 points for MA-40/MA-50 respectfully IIRC, and those divisions are usually nowhere near as populated as MA-3 locally so it's way tougher to get the number of points it takes to qualify for worlds if you just play age protected. A guy might live in an area with only a few MA-40/MA-50 players around and not have a chance to get enough points that way, so they're relegated to beating up on newcomers and kids for those points. There has to be a better way.

I guess you could view your experience with these guys as an educational one and learn from their prowess. Hope you can find value in your participation. Best wishes!

 

[biscoe]

Technically the age based Amateur divisions are "advanced" divisions (old nomenclature) therefore the rating is uncapped.

 

[ru4por]

I am 55 and have spent the last year just enjoying the game after needing to find something my body can handle. I have recently wanted to throw my disc in the ring and enter some tourneys for 50+ amateurs.
I was about to pull the trigger when I saw who had already joined the tournament. This is for MA50.
A guy on there has a 950 rating, has won 30 tournaments, and is ranked in the top 20 in the Masters division. A second guy is pretty close to that.
Why are these guys allowed to play MA50 when they are obviously way beyond the talent around them? Wouldn't they want to play MA2 or MA3.
Is there not a tournament - short or MA4 I guess, where I am not playing elite amateurs at 55 years old?

Thanks

Why do you want to play age protected divisions, instead of competing with younger, more flexible, stronger kids? I think your reply will go a long way in answering your own question.

Winning is not a right. Seek joy in all your activities. Play for the fun, the competition, the exercise, the opportunity to be outside....you might win a few....you might come in DFL in a few.....shrug.

 

[DarthVegan]

I am 55 and have spent the last year just enjoying the game after needing to find something my body can handle. I have recently wanted to throw my disc in the ring and enter some tourneys for 50+ amateurs.
I was about to pull the trigger when I saw who had already joined the tournament. This is for MA50.
A guy on there has a 950 rating, has won 30 tournaments, and is ranked in the top 20 in the Masters division. A second guy is pretty close to that.
Why are these guys allowed to play MA50 when they are obviously way beyond the talent around them? Wouldn't they want to play MA2 or MA3.
Is there not a tournament - short or MA4 I guess, where I am not playing elite amateurs at 55 years old?

Thanks

I'm in the same boat as you basically (53+, playing seriously for a year), and was thinking of entering a local tournament. I was trying to decide between playing MA-50 with guys my age where I'd get crushed by some locals I play with in league for sure, or entering MA4, and being more competitive (but having to keep up with young whippersnappers). I still hadn't decided when I found out that there was a new rule this year requiring full $50/yr PDGA membership for even one tournament (no more $10 temp membership), which basically priced itself out of my consideration, so I'll just stick to my singles and doubles leagues I guess...

 

[Alydar]

Welcome to the sport! Their rating is too good to qualify for either MA-2 or MA-3, so they'd have to play MA-1 or even MPO if they didn't play something age protected for which their age qualifies them. While I would agree they should be playing pro masters (aka MP-40 or MP-50) once they're up in the 930's, they're not bound to that by rule currently. Anybody who turns at least 50 in the calendar year is eligible for MA-50, even if they're 5 strokes away from being in the top 500 players in the whole world.

Same thing happened to me for a tournament coming up this Saturday. I'm competitive with other 880-900ish players in MA-50 now, and I just saw a 943 rated guy sign up. If we both play to our averages, he should cream all of us, probably beating 2nd place by about 10 or 12 strokes for the 36 hole c-tier.

I don't find that to be honorable to be honest. Back when I first entered sanctioned events in 1998 I actually tied for first in Am-2 at a big state level tournament (choked it away on a playoff hole) and always finished in the top 5 out of like 30 or more players, so I moved up to Am-1 like a man and never looked back, even though it meant way less in winnings for me. There was no rating system in place for a good year yet at that time and I could've stayed in Am-2 and won gobs of plastic, but I didn't want to be known as a sandbagger. Shame was the only thing preventing sandbagging back then. I love the ratings system and agree it should be used for old players now too. If you're 950 you should absolutely have to play pro masters.

My rating fell to below 900 for the first time ever this year but I refused to enter Am-3 and take away prizes from newcomers and kids. I could have done that without breaking any rules. I'm not ever going to do that.

There is one instance where good oldsters playing MA-2 or MA-3 isn't sandbagging in my eyes, and that's to earn enough points to get into worlds for the next year. The points system for entry into worlds is stupid in my opinion, where you earn points for each person you beat in a tournament, and the MA-3/MA-2 divisions have gobs of players in them. Age protected worlds entry requires something like 1000 and 500 points for MA-40/MA-50 respectfully IIRC, and those divisions are usually nowhere near as populated as MA-3 locally so it's way tougher to get the number of points it takes to qualify for worlds if you just play age protected. A guy might live in an area with only a few MA-40/MA-50 players around and not have a chance to get enough points that way, so they're relegated to beating up on newcomers and kids for those points. There has to be a better way.

I guess you could view your experience with these guys as an educational one and learn from their prowess. Hope you can find value in your participation. Best wishes!

Great reply. I suspect that I just won't ever enter tournaments and just play for fun and in a singles league near me. The way things are setup, the special rated players own all levels of tournament play, and so there isn't any real incentive for someone learning the game, older, whose trajectory is going down to enter and be competitive against like players.

A younger person can strive and work hard and hopefully their bell curve is such that they get better over time and can enter tournaments.

Such is life for the growing old. I can still enjoy this sport, get my exercise, and play without tournament play.

I appreciate everyone's civil responses.

 

[HyooMac]

@Alydar : I also entered the sport later in life, roughly at 60. I initially played a bunch of tournaments in MA3 and MA2. Since COVID, I've been playing in age-protected (most often MA50, sometimes MA60, and the occasionally offered MA65).

There's certainly the questions of "what's fair?" regarding divisions. When I'm in MA50, I compete against a guy who's won 100+ tournaments, and I'm always worried about DFL, regardless of division.

But regardless of the player ratings, I have found the shift to age-protected divisions to be a great improvement in enjoying the tournament. I don't end up on cards with "life or death" types who really don't seem to be enjoying themselves, or making it enjoyable for others. I especially enjoy playing with that MA50 guy who's won so many tournaments because he's mature (if a little hard on himself) and I can learn from watching him. That guy with the 950 you saw might be great to play with.

Maybe none of this applies to you, because you might have very different motivations for playing tournaments. I'm really playing to work on my rating, to play sometimes with other people, to learn how to play better by watching. I'm not at this stage worried about points or qualifying. I'm just playing a C or B Tier every month. I'm also playing some occasional tags at my local course, just to get more used to playing in competition. Where I end up is sort of secondary to the other objectives.

So, other than "throwing your disc in the ring", I'm not sure what you're looking to get out of tournaments....

 

[Rastnav]

ru4por alludes to what I'm bout to say, but perhaps in a way that's less empathetic to someone new to the tournament side of disc golf.

Basically, I think it's important to look at the whole structure of tournament disc golf, and try to understand why it exists as it is, rather than solely from your own specific viewpoint. We all tend towards solipsism, but it's less useful when you are asking about why, say, MA50 has the entrants it does.

Imagine you are a lifelong amateur player. You've never really been interested in trying to play for money, you just like competing. You got to the point where you were in the top tier of amateurs, you always played in MA1. You win your fair share of tournaments. You want to put yourself against the best amateurs and see if you can make it to the top.

But you are getting older now. Age is taking its toll and you can't do everything you once could. Longer tournaments on longer courses start to eat away at your ability to perform. You just aren't competitive with the folks in their 20s who can now outthrow you by a mile and never seem to get sore or have those nagging injuries that never really go away.

The same is true for all those guys you competed against locally for years and years. You are all just at "that stage of life". You still feel like these folks are the ones you want to measure yourself against. You don't want to slide down to MA2. The people in MA2 don't really want it either, because who wants to go against the person who has shown the ability, over and over, to throw a 1000 rated round, but just can't do it with the same consistency?

That's the need the various age protected divisions serve. They are for the top end players who age out of top end competition. Sure, some people will enter in those divisions because they would also like to measure themselves against their age cohort, even though they've never been at the level of Am1 or Pro Open, but that's secondary.

If you are brand new to the game, or simply haven't developed the skill to climb to the top ranks, the PDGA has all of the ratings protected divisions: Am4, Am3, etc. If you've never competed, register in Am4 and see what happens. Measure yourself against yourself, by getting and then improving a rating. Maybe win your division.

New players will also complain that Am4 has players who have been competing for years and years. This is, again, a kind of solipsism. They are in the ratings protected tier because their demonstrated skill puts them there. Yeah, there are issues with people sitting on the cusp between one division and the next, but you can't avoid that without very finely graded approaches like a handicap system.

 

[biscoe]

That's the need the various age protected divisions serve. They are for the top end players who age out of top end competition. Sure, some people will enter in those divisions because they would also like to measure themselves against their age cohort, even though they've never been at the level of Am1 or Pro Open, but that's secondary.

I disagree that the Amateur age based divisions exist for this reason. Around here at least, what you describe is applicable to the Pro age based divisions. IMO the Amateur age based divisions exist primarily to allow for a more enjoyable social experience for older players and for players with talent who start late (yeah- not the most compatible of reasons). I can't think of any guys playing Am age based divisions in my area who were ever having regular success in MA1.

 

[Alydar]

My motivation for wanting to play in tournaments is a valid question. What do I want out of this?
My motivation isn't to be put in any classification where I easily win, quite the contrary. I just want to know, if I play my best, I have an opportunity to do well.
Simply put, and it's a bit embarrassing, is I miss being competitive. I have played competitive sports my entire life, and it's enriched my spirit so much having real close competition and then looking forward and preparing for the next one. If I've got something in my mind that I can strive for, and know that over time I have even a limited chance of success - it keeps me from being depressed about aging.
I guess I thought like biscoe said, Amateur 50 would be guys like me and Pro 50 would be guys like I saw had entered in the MA50. In fact I went and looked at the six entrants in the MP50 and all six have a lesser rating than three of the MA50 I was going to sign up for.

So, in the end, my motivation really was to feel competitive in my heart again, and not feel like old age is here and I just have to accept there is not even a low enough level for me.

Perhaps accepting reality is part of my growth and I need to do it gracefully. But damn if don't want to go out swinging.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

Since our sport has undergone such rapid growth, I suspect there could be enough players for a new age-protected division with a low ratings cap for the newer players who can only stand so much pickleball and want to try out our amazing game. Call it "Novice-50" perhaps and you have to be rated under, say, 850 to play in it, or be brand-new without a rating. That way you can hang out with people who can remember life with phones on the wall while also still being a new player.

 

[Alydar]

Thanks everyone for great replies. I think as I learned it's come to a realization that tourney play is not for everyone and it's your motivation for playing in them that matters most. That is good to know. I'll just continue playing different courses for fun and compete against myself and that's ok.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Thanks everyone for great replies. I think as I learned it's come to a realization that tourney play is not for everyone and it's your motivation for playing in them that matters most. That is good to know. I'll just continue playing different courses for fun and compete against myself and that's ok.

Well all I can say is don't knock it until you try it... try it out then hate it. Haha.

For me it's seeing my friends and making more friends. Tourneys are a slow round of disc for me and time consuming, I enjoy the three or four I play a year. It gives me a chance to see other people's throws close up and meet people from outside my regular group.

I had a great round with Tony P and his partner Aleesha last year. Tony was great to watch (400' thrower in pro) but I spent all my time trying to keep up to Aleesha, I actually got a bit of my form back watching her throw. I knew I couldnt compete with Tony but my game rose to new levels just playing in that group. I think I finished that round with my 3rd best solo score on my local course, the kinda numbers I hadn't laid down for a decade.

As far as sandbagging goes... I don't like it, I try to play to my ability and I hope others do the same. There's lots of reasons to play below your level, the social group in MA40 is my jam, I wish I could play pro but meh. Half of us went pro and half of us didn't, haha.

I got ridiculed pretty bad a decade ago when I threw the two best rounds of my life back to back in the tourney playing advanced. I never moved up and after a year or so of not winning they stopped shaming me....

 

[jupiterboy]

Thanks everyone for great replies. I think as I learned it's come to a realization that tourney play is not for everyone and it's your motivation for playing in them that matters most. That is good to know. I'll just continue playing different courses for fun and compete against myself and that's ok.

It's whatever you want. I'm an old newb, too. I kinda want to understand the PDGA rating system, even though I compete against myself and don't feel competitive.

I played a local C-tier thinking I could extrapolate a rating. No go. It was fun, and I had a sense I was somewhere in the middle of the pack. TD never even posted final scores, so I didn't learn anything.

More recently, I figured out I could get PDGA sanctioned league nights. That is a single round rather than 40 holes over a whole day or whatever. This morning I can see my first points and see how my round was rated. The unexpected benefit that I see, besides showing up and adding some cash to the event, is getting an idea about what I should/could be shooting on some smaller, local courses. Put another way, I shot one over last night, but that is a 788 rated round. That's a novice sort of rating, but I can now see that par on that course is probably around 800. I can see that I need to set an interim goal of -2 or -3.

Soon I'll have a real rating. That will give a TD something to go on, and they can place me where they want me based on how they think things should run. I'm definitely not the old guy that used to be competitive, but I sort of don't care who is on my card. Nothing wrong with showing up, paying, and supporting the local scene.

 

[sisyphus]

I started playing 12 years ago at age 50, and initially competed in recreational and 'grandmasters' (MA50). Just wanting to see where I would 'fit in', and to some extent, test the waters on the types of players I wanted to play with. Long story short, after participating in almost everything around for a while, I now mostly play MP60 +/- (decided I didn't need more than a hundred discs), and choose events where I'll have the most fun (for me, shorter technical courses, one rounders -can't stand silly slow play or taking it too seriously -, and usually with my age group). I don't really 'compete' while out there, but must admit, I do take pride in seeing how I might place in my division as well as in comparison to the entire field for the day.

 

[txmxer]

Since our sport has undergone such rapid growth, I suspect there could be enough players for a new age-protected division with a low ratings cap for the newer players who can only stand so much pickleball and want to try out our amazing game. Call it "Novice-50" perhaps and you have to be rated under, say, 850 to play in it, or be brand-new without a rating. That way you can hang out with people who can remember life with phones on the wall while also still being a new player.

I like this, but I'd be okay with Novice 40 so as to maximize the potential number of participants.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

I was thinking the same thing at work today, Txmxer. I think "Rec-40+" sounds better and it could be anybody 40 and over who's new and/or Disc Golf challenged. It would encourage more old people to join the sport, potentially becoming addicted and better players down the road so people like me have more potential friendly competitors in the 875-925 sweet spot where I am in MA-50. I miss having 30 people in my division like the old Am-1 days!

Edit: I hit the "quote" button and your quote didn't appear. Still getting used to the new site!

 

[biscoe]

I played a local C-tier thinking I could extrapolate a rating. No go. It was fun, and I had a sense I was somewhere in the middle of the pack. TD never even posted final scores, so I didn't learn anything.

If it was a C Tier then i don't see how scores could not have been posted unless the TD is looking to no longer be a TD.

 

[jupiterboy]

If it was a C Tier then i don't see how scores could not have been posted unless the TD is looking to no longer be a TD.

It was not sanctioned. I thought the might throw up a doc on dg scene. Nope. Just payouts, after party. I knew it would not be rated, but figured I would participate and observe

 

[Juddster]

Old guy here. Started tourney at 51 and played first tourney in rec (TD suggestion) on shorts at my local course. First rating was a 924 even though I was much worse player at the time. Made me ineligible to play rec so I moved to MA50 and got my butt handed to me for years. For me it was a great move and gave me inspiration and motivation because of how good those players were. It made me a much better player. What level play and what you want out of it is primary. If you want to learn and get better, play up. You want to have a good time and fling plastic, play down. No wrong way. Ten years later, I am a strong MA 60 player but have no interest in "pro" although I have played some as an am for the competition. Am is more casual and "pros" seem to be too damn serious in my experience. Most MA50 and MA60 guys are out there having a good time. It is not a job. If I want to sign up for a tourney now, I check all divisions I am eligible for and the courses. If the competition is stronger or there are more competitors or if the courses selected are better, I have the option of playing where I want. Normal path is Novice, Rec, Intermediate, (if ratings allow) then whatever age bracket you fit in. Whatever you choose, have fun and don't worry. Hell of a lot of nice people in all divisions. Its the beauty of our game.