What rules infractions do you call in Tournament play?

[PhattD]

It appears that Discette has nothing worthwhile to contribute.

None that are taken seriously.

It sounds to me like you're butthurt.

Bingo! :clap:

Y'all are delusional as *$&# if you think that the self-officiating in our little sport, even at highest possible application, would amount to much more than a hill of beans. Jesus, can you fathom how long it would take a tourney to finish if everybody self-officiated to the best of their abilities?

Bill throws into the rough. Whole card walks over to Bill's lie and gets into position to watch for violations. Bill takes entire allotted amount of time to throw, then throws. Whole card moves over to Jamal's lie, aka the next farthest out. Repeat for every throw, for 18 holes, etc. Some players would be able to grow a beard faster it would take to finish a round. :doh:

Two things. You and threeputt came across as though you were refusing to call violations that you did see because you didn't want to self officiate. That's what we are disagreeing with. Second you said self officiated sports are dumb. PDGA sponsored Disc Golf is a self officiated sport. You thinking it shouldn't be a self officiated sport and refusing to call infractions doesn't make it not self officiated. It makes you a whiney baby. :wall:

 

[Three Putt]

I don't sign up to be a referee, so I generally don't pay any attention to the other people on my card. I call what I see, but I'm not going out of my way to watch what you do like a referee would.

Not sure where I said I didn't call what I saw. What I'm saying is I'm playing, not refereeing. My primary focus is on my shot and what I'm doing. Anything I might notice is almost on accident.

 

[Vonbeezy1]

If I'm in a foursome who has a chance to place in the money for that tournament then I'm watching everyone closer. If we're towards the back end of the division then I'll most probably only explain the rule that was broken after the fact and offer to play skins for that round.

This. /thread

 

[halfchub]

Oh crap. I got here to late!!! Thread is over? Noo0oo0o0o....

 

[JC17393]

If I'm in a foursome who has a chance to place in the money for that tournament then I'm watching everyone closer. If we're towards the back end of the division then I'll most probably only explain the rule that was broken after the fact and offer to play skins for that round.

This. /thread

And how does one handle the first round (or day) of the tournament when no one knows for sure whether they're in contention for the money or playing out the day/weekend at the "back end" of their division?

Genuine question, not trying to chastise. I hear this attitude often ("we're out of it, who cares about foot faults", etc). Just curious whether that approach differs when the outcome of the tournament is completely unknown. And if it does, is there a reason one can be comfortable making a call in round one that they're wouldn't make the same call in the last round.

 

[Jay Dub]

You missed this post:

I decide on a case by case basis depending on the current situation and I'm good with that. No reason to be drilling anyone on the last 2-3 cards about rules, their day hasn't been that good to that point anyway.

No one on any of my cards will ever win anything because they cheated. No matter how many "what if" scenarios anyone can come up with, that will always be the case.

 

[Smigles]

Who said anything about playing dumb? What I'm saying is most of the time I am not in position to see anything. Neither are most of the other people on the card.

I dont know how it is in the states, but here in switzerland we stay behind the guy who is up and watch him throw. Usually you get a pretty good view from right behind him. Amongst other reasons because not doing so is quickly a courtesy violation.

I know that there are many like you and I know that we won't have an even standart of player-refereeing across all flights at an event. Luckily the closer you get to the leader flight, the better the courtesy tends to be followed. I dont care what you do as long as you are not in my flight and start irritating me with all the strange behaviour.

 

[Three Putt]

I dont know how it is in the states, but here in switzerland we stay behind the guy who is up and watch him throw. Usually you get a pretty good view from right behind him. Amongst other reasons because not doing so is quickly a courtesy violation.

I know that there are many like you and I know that we won't have an even standart of player-refereeing across all flights at an event. Luckily the closer you get to the leader flight, the better the courtesy tends to be followed. I dont care what you do as long as you are not in my flight and start irritating me with all the strange behaviour.

Really? So if I guy is deep in the shule you all go crawling back there and stand behind him? When a guy goes deep into a creek you all get down in the creek and stand behind him? Wow. That's great, I guess. :| Here we just hang back in the fairway so we are not in or in front of the line of the throw, but nobody really goes in and watches what they are doing.

 

[BrotherDave]

​

OK, I will be then. Mr. Macho didn't like my comment about golf and tennis -- either that or your lessening the impact of those as sports. Wait I said that, you just took my comment out of context.

​

What the hay??? Who in this thread even implied that was what we were talking about? We are talking about SEEING a violation (or noticing) and then whether or not you CALL it. Nowhere have I advocated for acting, positioning, and calling like a game official in team sports. I've always compared the level of self-officiating to golf, tennis, and blacktop basketball.

For starters, I'm not trying to be macho about anything but thanks for the name-calling.

Your pick-up basketball analogy is terrible, to be frank. There are no official rules of pick-up basketball. There are NBA rules, College rules, FIBA rules, etc. Unlike disc golf, there are no de facto rules. That alone makes it a very apples to oranges comparison. So playing pick-up basketball you can play: 1s & 2s or 2s & 3s, make it take/alternating possession, pass the ball in or not to start play, freethrows/no, offensive fouls/no, take ball past 3pt line to win possession after a turnover/shot that hits the rim/any missed shot, etc, etc, etc. The 'rules' are all over the map partly b/c it's self-officiated. It's all in good fun, nobody pays money for pick-up. The only time it's taken seriously is if someone starts making bets and only idiots and gambling addicts bet on pick-up basketball.

It's amateur tennis for a reason. The keyword there is 'amateur.' None of those sports you mentioned are taken that seriously or at least they aren't until their elite divisions where they become taken seriously. You know they become taken seriously because the self-officiating is removed/reduced as much as possible by the addition of officials.

There's not much difference between SEEING and CALLING here, the premise is basically the same. The premise is you should call every violation you see because the rule book says so, assuming that doing so will promote competitive balance and fairness (or something to that effect). No-sees are just as bad as no-calls in the rule book b/c you're supposed to be paying attention i.e. self-officiating each other. The problem is, as Three Putt and I alluded to above, the logistics or feasibility of properly self-officiating is virtually impossible. If a guy wins the tournament b/c I didn't call his foot fault vs winning b/c I was staring at my shoes instead doesn't matter in the end; the guy still won when maybe he shouldn't have.

Two things. You and threeputt came across as though you were refusing to call violations that you did see because you didn't want to self officiate. That's what we are disagreeing with. Second you said self officiated sports are dumb. PDGA sponsored Disc Golf is a self officiated sport. You thinking it shouldn't be a self officiated sport and refusing to call infractions doesn't make it not self officiated. It makes you a whiney baby. :wall:

Three Putt shouldn't have come across that way but I'm okay with being interpreted that way. Three Putt's basically arguing that he's human and has enough on his plate to deal with keeping himself legal and his shots on the fairway. I wholly agree with him on that and take it a step further. I don't call any violations that aren't really blatant b/c I'm hyper-critical of my own fallibility and b/c IMO selective self-officiating is worse than no officiating at all. I don't think it's fair (which is the point of all this) to nickle and dime a guy on my card when the same scrutiny isn't being applied to all players on all cards. For example I don't think it's fair that Player A beats Player X because Player X's card-mates, possessing neither rulers nor camera tech (nay, not even allowed to use camera tech even if they had them), cost him a stroke on a subjective foot fault call when Player A's card-mates overlooked the fact Player A takes too long to make most of his throws. Nobody calls time limits on people b/c nobody is checking a stop-watch every throw. IMO this is selective enforcement of the rules and I'd rather play in a tourney where everyone "swallowed their whistles and let'em play" so to speak than to contribute to bias.

Yes, our sport is dumb. The self-officiated part is a major, giant, humongous reason why it is dumb and why it will struggle to earn legitimacy as a respectable sport. I don't think I said that my refusal to call infractions makes disc golf a non-self-officiated sport. I'm saying it makes it a better self-officiated sport by addition by subtraction, less is more.

I'm not whining about a damn thing, homey. I'm just being brutally honest; no I don't selectively enforce the rules. Y'all are the ones whining about hearing a difference in opinion. If your precious rule book is so well-written than why care what I do or don't do in the first place? Why is the sanctity of competitive disc golf so easily imperiled by my laissez-faire rules enforcement in the Rec/Intermediate divisions? :|

 

[JoakimBL]

By not paying attention and calling violations on others, you are breaking the rules yourself, so strictly speaking, you are not trying to play within the rules yourself. If you don't care about calling infractions, why do you care if you foot fault? Expecting there to be officials following every card, or as the way you guys seem to play, every player, because you don't keep together but wonder off in 4 directions after each throw., is just absurd. Even if we were a huge sport with tons of money and sponsors, that would be an absurd waste of money.

 

[Noill]

perhaps the rules are bad and therefore unenforceable and very distracting...

self officiating is strange to say the least

and has been said time and again that the only ones really doing so are the ones that are trying to protect their potential win... no one else really has any motivation... if there were no cash in it, even less would do so

 

[Three Putt]

Exactly. Players make lousy refs; they are more focused on their own game than being a ref so they are constantly distracted. There are huge limitations to what you can do and see BUT it's manpower/cost prohibitive to do it any other way. So it is what it is. So why are we talking about it?

 

[JoakimBL]

So you guys are sugesting there should be no rules at all? Because that is what it sounds like to me, and about the only alternative. With that attitude, you really shouldn't play sanctioned events but stick to casual play in my opinion.

 

[Noill]

your last point is valid... if you don't like the rules play casually...

however, the only thing that is really being questioned herein is the rule to make calls against those on your card... I don't see anyone saying that they really refuse to do it.... just that they don't think it makes sense to do it very strictly... I agree with that in that it is a strange and onerous rule. Having to pay strict attention to everyone on your card for adherence to all the rules is a bit much... also, threeputt makes a good point when he says that he isn't well trained to do that and that the PDGA doesn't give good direction on just how to do it... He also says that he does call what he sees just that he is also pretty concerned with his own situation and is paying attention to his own game first and foremost... he wants to play his best and to do that he needs to weigh his options and pay attention to that.

Nothing at all wrong with saying a particular rule doesn't make a lot of sense.
I'm also taken aback that there doesn't seem to be a lot of thought paid to what someone is actually saying... it's almost like some of you are skimming over a post then attacking it... this isn't a great way to have a discussion.

 

[Three Putt]

So you guys are sugesting there should be no rules at all? Because that is what it sounds like to me, and about the only alternative. With that attitude, you really shouldn't play sanctioned events but stick to casual play in my opinion.

Nice. I love people putting words in my mouth.

No, we should have rules. Yes, the only practical way to apply the rules is through self-enforcement. No, self-enforcement isn't a great idea and you should not expect it to be consistent, uniform from place to place or accurate. It's what we have, and you have to live with it. If you want to improve it, the PDGA has to do a whole bunch in terms of training and preparing players to be better officials than they do now.

Anybody who thinks I should be banned from PDGA play becasue I'm honest that my officiating sucks and I have no motivation to do anything about it needs to take a chill pill. I'm not ruining the sport or damaging the integrity of anything. If anything, you should question the guy who claims to watch everything like a hawk and call everything 'cause (news flash) he's not. He's the Interwebz rules-Nazi equivalent of the dude who averages 500' on his drives. With his putter. Either that or he's delusional.

 

[Dan Ensor]

So you guys are sugesting there should be no rules at all? Because that is what it sounds like to me, and about the only alternative. With that attitude, you really shouldn't play sanctioned events but stick to casual play in my opinion.

Maybe I'm saying that the rules are in place so that people who aren't playing the game right (cheating) can be called out/penalized/DQed, but not in place to ostracize players who make mistakes.

 

[araytx]

For starters, I'm not trying to be macho about anything but thanks for the name-calling.

Your pick-up basketball analogy is terrible, to be frank. There are no official rules of pick-up basketball. There are NBA rules, College rules, FIBA rules, etc. Unlike disc golf, there are no de facto rules. That alone makes it a very apples to oranges comparison. So playing pick-up basketball you can play: 1s & 2s or 2s & 3s, make it take/alternating possession, pass the ball in or not to start play, freethrows/no, offensive fouls/no, take ball past 3pt line to win possession after a turnover/shot that hits the rim/any missed shot, etc, etc, etc. The 'rules' are all over the map partly b/c it's self-officiated. It's all in good fun, nobody pays money for pick-up. The only time it's taken seriously is if someone starts making bets and only idiots and gambling addicts bet on pick-up basketball.



It's amateur tennis for a reason. The keyword there is 'amateur.' None of those sports you mentioned are taken that seriously or at least they aren't until their elite divisions where they become taken seriously. You know they become taken seriously because the self-officiating is removed/reduced as much as possible by the addition of officials.


...

Yes, our sport is dumb. The self-officiated part is a major, giant, humongous reason why it is dumb and why it will struggle to earn legitimacy as a respectable sport. I don't think I said that my refusal to call infractions makes disc golf a non-self-officiated sport. I'm saying it makes it a better self-officiated sport by addition by subtraction, less is more.

Why is the sanctity of competitive disc golf so easily imperiled by my laissez-faire rules enforcement in the Rec/Intermediate divisions? :|

My apologies. I now see your perspective. The Rec/Intermediate divisions are like college tennis.

 

[DanJon]

By not paying attention and calling violations on others, you are breaking the rules yourself, so strictly speaking, you are not trying to play within the rules yourself. If you don't care about calling infractions, why do you care if you foot fault? Expecting there to be officials following every card, or as the way you guys seem to play, every player, because you don't keep together but wonder off in 4 directions after each throw., is just absurd. Even if we were a huge sport with tons of money and sponsors, that would be an absurd waste of money.

Can you be 100% sure that you're calling every rules violation yourself?

Such as someone taking 5-10 seconds too long to throw every time?

Or someone missing their mark by a few inches on their fairway shot?

If you've missed one or more of those then I guess you're not paying enough attention and that's breaking the rules.

 

[wolfmandragon]

This is yet another reason I refuse to play in tournaments. I do not multitask well, if fact, it has been shown in experiments that no-one does. If you are watching someone else for infractions, then your head is not in your game....and you will loose.

This is opinion, maybe, but the reason Paul McBeth is the best player is not his skills. Any shot he has in his bag someone else can do better. He is the best because he has a level of focus that I have never seen on another disc golfer. Yeah, he may call someone for a fault, but he isn't Hawkeying everyone.

 

[Smigles]

Can you be 100% sure that you're calling every rules violation yourself?

Is not being perfect really an excuse to not try your best?

What a lame excuse.

I guess the cops can stop catching murderers now since one once got away.

I am amazed by the level of idiocy that some people go to here just to prove their "point".