Even though we may agreeably disagree on some points, MTL, I respect your opinion and your being open-minded to additional information. Take care.
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Southern Nationals
- Thread starter KYdischippy
- Start date
Rondpitt
Par Member
Hopefully Ace can fill in the blanks, but SN has a right noble history. In the very early years, late 70's and early 80's, disc golf was typically promoted by the local guru/pro. They provided the whole package; course design and installation, events, merchandise, clinics, etc. In the deep south that was none other than Jim Orum.
Jim promoted the sport in a major way --- especially in south Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana. Without his efforts, the growth of the sport in these areas would be considerably less.
After Jim installed a local course (major cred with the State Parks system) he would launch an event. Often without any local help. It was his way of growing the sport. Surprise, it worked!
And as you would assume, over time he linked area events together in a series. How it morphed into what it is today will have to be pieced together from others.
But, I have always assumed some kind of friction with the emerging PDGA. That may or may not have influenced what looks like a separate movement.
Ace has pointed out the continued commitment from SN players to grow the sport. May that never change. I have noticed over the years that the SN players function as a big family. And while one can't be a "member" of the SN series, most of the committed players see themselves AND their local club as an extension of SN. Family. They can be "MotherBearIsh" about their brand of doing things. Don't P them off.
Ron
bnbanbury
Eagle Member
While i don't have SN events in my area I'm not sure i understand the OP's point about choosing between the two. I'm happy to support the PDGA and any other organization that grows and supports disc golf and i often struggle with irritation over the small amounts of money many disc golfers complain about. I love playing competitive golf and i'm happy for my money to go to organizations that make that possible.
I wish people would quit making this PDGA vs. SN nonsense like its an either or like you have to be on one side of that fence or the other. While its largely the exception, there have been events on the SN calendar that were sanctioned by the PDGA in recent years.
The SN is a multi-state organization which runs tournaments with a points series attached. Not all that different from the statewide one that I belong to. In exchange for having a TD put their event under their flag, they take $2/head for the organization. They do not really "sanction" anything in the same sense that the PDGA does. They do not provide a ruleset. They do not make and enforce technical standards for our equipment.
They are not the Apple to the PDGA's Microsoft everyone makes them out to be.
The SN is a multi-state organization which runs tournaments with a points series attached. Not all that different from the statewide one that I belong to. In exchange for having a TD put their event under their flag, they take $2/head for the organization. They do not really "sanction" anything in the same sense that the PDGA does. They do not provide a ruleset. They do not make and enforce technical standards for our equipment.
They are not the Apple to the PDGA's Microsoft everyone makes them out to be.
Blank
shroom
Eagle Member
The one thing I have never understood is, why does the PDGA charge a $10 penalty for a non PDGA member to play at their event?
To me this seems to be the opposite of growing the sport. If I show up and bring a few kids with me, how is that going to reflect in their eyes. Why not drop that penalty and encourage more people to play. The whole "be a member or pay extra" just doesn't set right with me.
Granted I have never been to a PDGA event and I don't know how they are run, I am willing to try one just to see. I would gladly love input on this subject as I am not a closed minded individual.
To me this seems to be the opposite of growing the sport. If I show up and bring a few kids with me, how is that going to reflect in their eyes. Why not drop that penalty and encourage more people to play. The whole "be a member or pay extra" just doesn't set right with me.
Granted I have never been to a PDGA event and I don't know how they are run, I am willing to try one just to see. I would gladly love input on this subject as I am not a closed minded individual.
BgWvDave
Double Eagle Member
The PDGA offers the TD and players one BIG thing for all sanctioned events. without this one thing many tournaments would probably not be able to exist in this day and age in modern parks dealing with modern parks departments. Insurance. the $10.00 non members fee is to offset the PDGA's liability expense for offering this service to the TD's and players of their sanctioned events. while people may see the Non-members fee as you do (and i don't blame you) i do see the justification and agree for the need.
Also the 10 discount for members is a pretty good selling point as well to join the PDGA.
BgWvDave
Double Eagle Member
I feel like this bears repeating. I agree 100% with this. Also i have followed the SN's with some interest for years. They have not been without there drama as an org. as well. There will never be a perfect system and all people involved in both Org's. i feel are down for the same cause.
And yet, about the time that the non-member fee went from $5 to $10 is when membership and attendance in general started taking off. What do you suppose the why was about? They wanted people to become members.
The thing is, it really didn't stagnate the number of non-members who were willing to pay that extra $10. There were 103 people at the B-tier I attended this past weekend. 47 of them, including myself, are shown as non-members or non-current. That's an extra $470 in the PDGA's coffers.
Rondpitt
Par Member
There is probably a dozen good answers, but I would say that is a bargain. Events have to have some kind of financial support. Duh. Creating an avenue for a non-member to participate for a one-time fee is genius.
Try going to just one event in the local soccer/football/basketball/swimming league --- might not even happen.
I love your open attitude. Give a DG event a shot. Heck, look for a fundraiser sanctioned event -- the $10 gets waived.
Ron
dmbrun2
Eagle Member
So I moved from Illinois to Memphis last year, I have experience with both. Someone asked the question if they can give amateurs money. Southern nationals give out good pay to AMs in discs though. The tournaments in general seem more laid back and relaxed. Granted that could be because of the group of people and not the pdga vs southern nationals
Royal Hill
Eagle Member
It's been said already -
The biggest elephant in the room (or on the course) that most players do not see is what was related earlier was risk management and insurance.
I'm going to say that I hate that elephant and the crazy expensive stuff it does to most good things in life.
I'm quite a ways away from the SN region - does their endorsement or event affiliation come with any stipulations that the event have insurance protection? or TD/club beware?
As they say.. "nothings a problem...until it's a problem. Then its too late"
Any chance the SN could be in a position where one major incident at an affiliated yet unprotected event brings the whole thing down in a tumble of playing cards?
or, as many have pointed out.. if they are "just" a points gathering tourney series then maybe they could stay at arms length. As long as the event directors don't run to them for cover in such a scenario when the suits start flying?
The biggest elephant in the room (or on the course) that most players do not see is what was related earlier was risk management and insurance.
I'm going to say that I hate that elephant and the crazy expensive stuff it does to most good things in life.
I'm quite a ways away from the SN region - does their endorsement or event affiliation come with any stipulations that the event have insurance protection? or TD/club beware?
As they say.. "nothings a problem...until it's a problem. Then its too late"
Any chance the SN could be in a position where one major incident at an affiliated yet unprotected event brings the whole thing down in a tumble of playing cards?
or, as many have pointed out.. if they are "just" a points gathering tourney series then maybe they could stay at arms length. As long as the event directors don't run to them for cover in such a scenario when the suits start flying?
Jen, I will try to accurately answer your questions. Tournaments are usually singles only, doubles only, plus SNDG Team, Singles and Doubles Championships in Pros, Ams once a year at sites that volunteer to host. Basically, the PDGA model is followed for divisions such as Juniors, Novice, Intermediates, Ams, Open, Masters, GM, SRGM, and Legends. Men and Women. Advanced available in some of the divisions. Of course, every tournament may not have all of the divisions. Some hardly ever make 3 or more entries such as mine, SRGM. Ratings such as PDGA ratings do not usher you into a more skilled division. Results do that, coupled with peer pressure to play in the correct division. Age-protected divisions are included. Ams do not get cash. They get plastic, bags, etc. Entry fees may include a tournament shirt and/or disc, or not. Generally, a lunch is provided for convenience, visiting, and to ensure everyone is there for the second round. Regarding insurance, many tournaments in public parks can fall under the umbrella policy of that entity. A use fee is sometimes paid to the park to hold a tournament and for the park to help spruce up for the tournament. Other tournaments may be required to furnish insurance to use the property, such as the Louisiana States in 2011 at UL-Lafayette. Other than that, an individual TD may purchase some form of insurance and pay for it out of the entry fees.
The SNDG has a 6 member BOD, elected for two-year terms, 3 and 3 at a time. We have a handbook, and the BOD rules on questions and controversies, as well as protects tournament dates for competition on the same date from other nearby tournaments by sanctioning the initial request for a tournament.
Every tournament I have attended in SNDG emphatically states that no illegal substances may be used, or face DQ and/or calling the cops. If the park allows no alcohol that is usually enforced. SNDG is not a bunch of drunk, potheads snorting and throwing dics wildly around a pasture. Many of us do not use alcohol, pot, or like items. Others do, but not during tournaments.Do some sneak a beer during tournaments and not get turned in. Maybe. Pot maybe, but not likely. Casual rounds do we see some of that - oh yeah. In PDGA states do we see that also - you answer.
SNDG allows only PDGA approved equipment and we follow the PDGA Rules for tournaments. So SNDG is not a bunch of wild, toothless, barefoot, unshaven drunks waving the Stars and Bars with one hand and throwing SNDG-approved cowpies with the other. lol
SN is a regional series, and some of their tournaments are PDGA...so like some have said, not an alternative.
Also since nobody has a PDGA number bagging is rampant and annoying.
Tried to edit: here is what I was meaning to say:
SN is a regional series, and some of their tournaments are PDGA...so like some have said, not an alternative.
Also since PDGA ratings dont' matter bagging is rampant and annoying. Their tournaments aren't taken seriously either. The last one I played in people are yelling across holes to one another in the middle of a round (during people's throws/putts)...and I'm not talking an isolated instance, I'm talking all day. It's all very informal, rules loosely enforced at best. Don't be the guy to call infractions either, everybody knows each other well, or you'll be the outsider.
That said, they do a lot of great work with local communities, and there are some genuinely awesome people that are fun to play a round with. I just hate the way they run tournaments.
SN is a regional series, and some of their tournaments are PDGA...so like some have said, not an alternative.
Also since PDGA ratings dont' matter bagging is rampant and annoying. Their tournaments aren't taken seriously either. The last one I played in people are yelling across holes to one another in the middle of a round (during people's throws/putts)...and I'm not talking an isolated instance, I'm talking all day. It's all very informal, rules loosely enforced at best. Don't be the guy to call infractions either, everybody knows each other well, or you'll be the outsider.
That said, they do a lot of great work with local communities, and there are some genuinely awesome people that are fun to play a round with. I just hate the way they run tournaments.
KYdischippy
Birdie Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2012
- Messages
- 316
Good to hear everyone's opinion! I actually like more laid back rounds so it's good to hear SN is like that. I really like the points series aspect of it a lot, and the setup with the $2 fee going to payout in the division it was taken from. Thanks Bayouace for the detailed info! I look forward to playing with yall.
For me it is an either or decision, because the SN is a points race. I want to put my money/time towards the points. It was mentioned above that PDGA does points for Am Worlds. Difference is you can be a complete beginner, play 1 tournament (Bowling Green) and qualify for Am Worlds. Hardly a points race. With SN you get 2 points for playing a tournament and 1 point for every player you beat in your division. The lowest points qualifier in Advanced this year had 70 points I think. That takes multiple tournaments of beating multiple people. You also have to make the points in 1 division to qualify. You cant play rec tournaments in SN and qualify for the SN Championships. I think it's a much better points structure.
I look forward to eat because each tournament/competitor beat means something!
For me it is an either or decision, because the SN is a points race. I want to put my money/time towards the points. It was mentioned above that PDGA does points for Am Worlds. Difference is you can be a complete beginner, play 1 tournament (Bowling Green) and qualify for Am Worlds. Hardly a points race. With SN you get 2 points for playing a tournament and 1 point for every player you beat in your division. The lowest points qualifier in Advanced this year had 70 points I think. That takes multiple tournaments of beating multiple people. You also have to make the points in 1 division to qualify. You cant play rec tournaments in SN and qualify for the SN Championships. I think it's a much better points structure.
I look forward to eat because each tournament/competitor beat means something!
To me that's not a penalty. I look at is as a $40 to $65 discount depending if you are an Amateur or Professional. Why should a non PDGA member get to play the same event as I without paying their dues?
I agree 100%.
It is annoying to play in a SN event if you want a competitive and serious environment. I've tried to call a courtesy violation and was laughed at in a tournament saying it wasn't PDGA and no one cares (a guy yelled for me to wait and walked in front of me while I was teeing off as he came from the previous basket).
I'll play in just 2-3 SN tournaments a year now, and that is just because I love playing in the SN City Cup (fun team tournament) and you have to play a few SN tournaments to do that.
Rondpitt
Par Member
It has been a while for me to play in a SN series event. What tacoma (and a couple of others) have described is somewhere between interesting and disturbing.
All that aside, I have to assume that at least some of the events/ TD's are a classy operation. My question is this --- which ones? Especially within 2-3 hours from Nashvegas.
Thanks,
Ron
NOSteveLA
Eagle Member
Hum brah?
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