PDGA NT: 2019 Dynamic Discs Glass Blown Open 24-Apr to 27-Apr-2019

[biscoe]

The issue is that it is extremely rare that a spotter is given any authority as a tournament official. They're usually volunteers without qualifications other than they have eyes and can watch throws and aid players in locating their discs. So if they offer help (say marking last in-bounds with a flag), the group is free to ignore them if they choose. I would expect that if a spotter was granted authority, it would be noted by the TD in the player meeting just to make it clear to the groups.

I will be advocating we do this for USWDGC as far as practicable- seems silly to put them out there and then not use them as the final authority.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I will be advocating we do this for USWDGC as far as practicable- seems silly to put them out there and then not use them as the final authority.

It's a good idea as long as you have enough certified spotters available that you can deputize as Tournament Officials to cover each key spotter location 100% of the time for fairness. That 100% lack of reliability is what makes some TDs reluctant to have Tournament Official spotters.

 

[Jolt]

Just looked at Jomez FPO R4 B9 and the foot fault on 17 was very clear . .much more so than on the live broadcast

see attached image

 

[RistoS]

IOW, if there's a lot of OB that is not water, then maybe there's a problem with the course and its design...

One point many people probably don't realize is that "artificial" OB, like at Emporia Country Club, greatly improves spectator safety. It's significantly easier to control large galleries when there's actual space to direct spectators into.

 

[Steve West]

One point many people probably don't realize is that "artificial" OB, like at Emporia Country Club, greatly improves spectator safety. It's significantly easier to control large galleries when there's actual space to direct spectators into.

Making it OB is not the only way or best way to do that.

Crowds can be directed to stay behind lines that are not OB lines and are more out of the way than the very front edge of an OB area that is designed to be at risk of being landed in.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Seems like videographers should try to avoid getting players' footwork in the frame when possible, even covering up feet with graphics in post produced content. Video and photo evidence isn't allowed anyway. Players call and resolve whatever infractions are observed within the group based on what they saw or didn't see in real time, not what the cameras saw. It doesn't matter if there were 6 uncalled foot faults caught on camera or none. That's how the game is played. It's like focusing on a typo or grammatical error in a story instead of enjoying the overall content. These foot fault / step / jump putt discussions unnecessarily generate negative publicity and angrier social media posts. For example, the PGA has avoided showing golfers smoking on camera for a long time now, partly for publicity reasons. Foot faults have become at least one of our "smoking" guns.

 

[elmexdela]

Seems like videographers should try to avoid getting players' footwork in the frame when possible, even covering up feet with graphics in post produced content. Video and photo evidence isn't allowed anyway. Players call and resolve whatever infractions are observed within the group based on what they saw or didn't see in real time, not what the cameras saw. It doesn't matter if there were 6 uncalled foot faults caught on camera or none. That's how the game is played. It's like focusing on a typo or grammatical error in a story instead of enjoying the overall content. These foot fault / step / jump putt discussions unnecessarily generate negative publicity and angrier social media posts. For example, the PGA has avoided showing golfers smoking on camera for a long time now, partly for publicity reasons. Foot faults have become at least one of our "smoking" guns.

one typo or grammatical error can completely change the story

isnt cheating changing someones chances at victory

 

[ToddL]

If I was the course designer I would move the basket on 16 to the center of the island. Having the basket in the center would reward more of the shots that land on the island.

I believe it used to be in the center of the island, but they put in a permanent basket recently. The island is typically a ball golf tee pad, so they can't have a concrete disc golf basket dead in the center.

 

[TimSyl]

Just looked at Jomez FPO R4 B9 and the foot fault on 17 was very clear . .much more so than on the live broadcast

see attached image

Obvious fault here. Pierce had an obvious one earlier...I'll have to find the hole. She was about a foot to the right of here mini.

 

[Cgkdisc]

one typo or grammatical error can completely change the story

isnt cheating changing someones chances at victory

Its not cheating when rules allows "flexibility" making calls, especially when the players involved cant see what hapPened. (Did you still understand even with typos and grammatical errors?)

 

[jvphobic]

Seems like videographers should try to avoid getting players' footwork in the frame when possible, even covering up feet with graphics in post produced content. Video and photo evidence isn't allowed anyway. Players call and resolve whatever infractions are observed within the group based on what they saw or didn't see in real time, not what the cameras saw. It doesn't matter if there were 6 uncalled foot faults caught on camera or none. That's how the game is played. It's like focusing on a typo or grammatical error in a story instead of enjoying the overall content. These foot fault / step / jump putt discussions unnecessarily generate negative publicity and angrier social media posts. For example, the PGA has avoided showing golfers smoking on camera for a long time now, partly for publicity reasons. Foot faults have become at least one of our "smoking" guns.

BUT... those things also drive views & comments. And views = $$$. I honestly debated whether we wanted to show the replay when almost EVERYONE saw that she missed her mark on 17. And ultimately I decided that it was in the best interest of SmashBoxx to do so. Of course that was a split second decision and maybe we are wrong or maybe not.

Cat clearly missed her mark in a tough lie. It was NOT intentional. But there were no players over there to call her. Who are we faulting more on this her or her cardmates? If something like this were to become commonplace, moments like this can be used to force players to pay more attention to their competitors. With as contentious as that card was, I have NO doubt that someone would have called her had it been seen.

If SmashBoxxTV caught a legitimate moment where a player was intentionally cheating should we show it? How different is this than NBA players who constantly are flopping at the slightest touch? IMO we are here to document the event and entertain the viewers.

 

[biscoe]

Seems like videographers should try to avoid getting players' footwork in the frame when possible, even covering up feet with graphics in post produced content. Video and photo evidence isn't allowed anyway. Players call and resolve whatever infractions are observed within the group based on what they saw or didn't see in real time, not what the cameras saw. It doesn't matter if there were 6 uncalled foot faults caught on camera or none. That's how the game is played. It's like focusing on a typo or grammatical error in a story instead of enjoying the overall content. These foot fault / step / jump putt discussions unnecessarily generate negative publicity and angrier social media posts. For example, the PGA has avoided showing golfers smoking on camera for a long time now, partly for publicity reasons. Foot faults have become at least one of our "smoking" guns.

The players want growth and what comes with it. Scrutiny is one of the things that comes with it.

 

[XC_Eddy]

I believe it used to be in the center of the island, but they put in a permanent basket recently. The island is typically a ball golf tee pad, so they can't have a concrete disc golf basket dead in the center.

That makes sense, but it's kind of unfortunate. I like the hole better when the pin is more accessible if players make the island. Making that island is tough, especially when the wind is up. Even when players managed to make the island, they took a ton of par 3's anyway. Eagle did it in both round 3 and round 4. Takes away the incentive to actually run the island. The best by the by the numbers play is to just lay up for your par. I also like the suggestion in this thread of allowing players who throw OB from the tee to have the option of re-teeing throwing 2 or advancing to the DZ and throwing 3. It creates another tough decision for players coming down the stretch and would encourage more players to run the island. Right now the safe play is rewarded significantly more often than the risky play. The above idea would shift that a bit and encourage more players to run the island.

Fun hole, great risk/reward play, just could be tweaked a little bit.

 

[Cgkdisc]

BUT... those things also drive views & comments. And views = $$$. I honestly debated whether we wanted to show the replay when almost EVERYONE saw that she missed her mark on 17. And ultimately I decided that it was in the best interest of SmashBoxx to do so. Of course that was a split second decision and maybe we are wrong or maybe not.

Cat clearly missed her mark in a tough lie. It was NOT intentional. But there were no players over there to call her. Who are we faulting more on this her or her cardmates? If something like this were to become commonplace, moments like this can be used to force players to pay more attention to their competitors. With as contentious as that card was, I have NO doubt that someone would have called her had it been seen.

If SmashBoxxTV caught a legitimate moment where a player was intentionally cheating should we show it? How different is this than NBA players who constantly are flopping at the slightest touch? IMO we are here to document the event and entertain the viewers.

If in fact every player and group were covered for potential real-time infractions, then maybe it makes sense. But under the current scenario, having essentially random video coverage of different players for only some throws on some holes, on some rounds creates unnecessary social turmoil when the evidence is not admissible and randomly focused. Note I'm only referring to calls that need to be seen and made in real time, not things like whether the disc is on the other side of the OB line or scoring errors where TDs can be informed to talk to the players like the Ricky scoring incident at the Memorial.

 

[biscoe]

99.995% of human existence creates "unnecessary social turmoil" these days. No one is advocating for calls to be made based on video evidence (at least not here currently). Were that the case having coverage on only a group or two could imo be construed as unfair. Since that is not the case i don't see it as an issue.

 

[SD86]

Obvious fault here. Pierce had an obvious one earlier...I'll have to find the hole. She was about a foot to the right of here mini.

Its not cheating when rules allows "flexibility" making calls, especially when the players involved cant see what hapPened. (Did you still understand even with typos and grammatical errors?)

While I want the rules to be enforced, and I would infinitely prefer seeing people self-call their own mistakes, I also don't want to see a tournament devolve into tit-for-tat calls between players for every little thing.

Players are supposed to be paying attention and watching each other, and the Wysocki/McCrae/Nikko incident showed that doesn't happen as much as it needs to. Nikko made the call and was correct, and the call on Wysocki should've been confirmed. But it wasn't, which was much more egregious to me than the foot fault itself.

The flip side is that Cat immediately called a 'revenge' courtesy violation when she was called for throwing her mini. And THAT is likely what's going to happen if players start calling each other for ticky-tack calls. People are still talking about that Climo situation from years ago, where he and someone called another player for four straight footfaults.

This is why IMHO there needs to be a serious conversation about new solutions and a new way of refereeing and enforcing the rules. If solutions really are wanted, of course....

 

[SD86]

One point many people probably don't realize is that "artificial" OB, like at Emporia Country Club, greatly improves spectator safety. It's significantly easier to control large galleries when there's actual space to direct spectators into.

I understand what you're saying, but it's really tangential to my point about artificial OB, which is used to make an otherwise too-easy, boring course (to play AND to watch) more challenging. Ball golf has a LOT of spectators, but artificial OB is not used to protect them... and golf balls can hurt as much or more than frisbees can if and when they hit you (plural). DG needs to figure this out, but as long as TPTB believes that hyzer bombs on wide open courses is what everyone wants to see, it's not going to change.

 

[Steve West]

Seems like videographers should try to avoid getting players' footwork in the frame when possible, even covering up feet with graphics in post produced content. ....

Completely disagree. Hitting your mark is part of the game. We should show whether players are doing it.

Even if video enforcement is not allowed, showing a foot fault and having the commentators call it a foot fault not only teaches people what a foot fault is, it also teaches players that it should have been called.

This misguided old notion that somehow penalties and violations should be pretended away is part of the reason people are reluctant to make calls.

If every one made every call, players would very quickly learn not to make violations. (It's really not that hard to practice hitting your mark.)

The result would be fewer violations, fewer calls and many many fewer awkward situations where players are not sure whether rules are really there to be applied or not.

 

[scarpfish]

I think the tee shot should be the long one. . today you can throw just as far from the fairway

Because that's how it is in ball golf and we have to emulate that in every aspect to be validated as a sport, right?

 

[Steve West]

Its not cheating when rules allows "flexibility" making calls, especially when the players involved cant see what hapPened. (Did you still understand even with typos and grammatical errors?)

You put flexibility in quotes like it was in the rules or something. It's not. Or, did you put it in quotes because what you really meant was not flexibility at all, but you wanted to use that word anyway?

"Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred."

That leaves no flexibility. If you know it happened, call it. If it didn't happen or you're not sure, don't. There is no option to take the chicken's way out and avoid calling something which you know was clearly a violation. Or, on the other side, to call something when it didn't clearly happen.