PDGATOUR - Would you support this?

[VictorB]

SuperTour event was simply the name for A-tier level events in the 90s. It wasn't an organized tour.

Would love to see it come back as an organized tour. Seems like a no-brainer (as long as you don't think about the logistics!)

 

[DiscFifty]

What Biscoe said. The PDGA does not need to be pouring any more membership money (on a percentage basis) into the pro tour than they already are. And they won't be anytime soon.

You think that the amateur members of the org would be into that, and I think history suggests that is not the case.

oh.. so you're cool with them gobbling up Udisc and giving away a "free" membership when you register your pdga membership? C'mon... you know that's coming out of the membership fee as well.

I don't know why some folks on this board are hell bent on pushing their athlete worship fantasies and think somehow if they word it just right, those of us who have been at this awhile and know the reality of things are going to go along with it. Good grief.

I also don't understand when someone doesn't give a !@#$ about a thread post, they spend their hard earned time to post something not even related to the thread. Good grief indeed, right there with ya.

Perhaps I am missing the point. Explain how the PDGA going into competition with DGPT, DGWT and the hundreds of clubs around the country putting on A-Tier events is a cash cow. And please explain how this is any better for the sport, as a whole, than what we have now.

A Tiers? I'm talking about the most elite events of each season. Maybe 10-12 of the largest events. If you want DGN/Dodge to be the central point, more power to you. My vote would be toward the Pdgatour if it ever came to fruition.

We're too early for this to work. The overall dollar amount in the sport is too low to create the monopoly type environment.

Oh for sure, way too early, I just wanted to bring it up because I think it's healthy debate. There is no doubt, someone or some company is going to step in and take it the next level, I just think we already have the foundation poured, why not take advantage of it?

A more likely scenario would be the PDGA saying, "Hey, you want to cover our NT/M events? Here are the ads you are required to play and you put it on our channels. Now tell me how much it is worth to you." And if the media doesn't like it, the media doesn't get to come. I have said for years that it is a crying shame that the PDGA doesn't force everyone of us to put their top events on THEIR YouTube page as well as the media company's.

Good stuff, I 100% agree!

 

[ru4por]

A Tiers? I'm talking about the most elite events of each season. Maybe 10-12 of the largest events. If you want DGN/Dodge to be the central point, more power to you. My vote would be toward the Pdgatour if it ever came to fruition.

So, your proposal would be to use the money and resources, of the predominantly AM driven and supported PDGA, to support a couple handful of pro players. Leaving less resources and money for the thousands of non-touring pro players and even more AM's? I am still voting a HUGE no thank you. Yes, I think Steve Dodge is on the right track. Using private enterprise to support a for profit group of pro's.

 

[c_a_miller]

all this whining about membership fees going to waste, y'all are missing the bigger point.

if positioned effectively, a product like this could be a long-term cash cow for the PDGA, and the sport as a whole.

wake up, people. it's a simple yes.

I think we really overestimate how much the average disc golfer gives a damn about the Pro Tour. Even if it could be such a "cash cow" would the average disc golfer ever see any positive change from it in their everyday disc golf life? I would bet not.

 

[DiscFifty]

So, your proposal would be to use the money and resources, of the predominantly AM driven and supported PDGA, to support a couple handful of pro players. Leaving less resources and money for the thousands of non-touring pro players and even more AM's? I am still voting a HUGE no thank you. Yes, I think Steve Dodge is on the right track. Using private enterprise to support a for profit group of pro's.

"couple handful of pro players" I don't get that one at all, sorry.

Someone suggested the pros split from the PDGA, I think it's the other way around. We already have the "Professional Disc Golf Association", why not have the "Amatuer Disc Golf Association"? The idea that the majority of PDGA ams would not support the PDGAtour is interesting because I've seen several posts indicating the majority of disc golf media views come from am players.

 

[DavidSauls]

"couple handful of pro players" I don't get that one at all, sorry.

Someone suggested the pros split from the PDGA, I think it's the other way around. We already have the "Professional Disc Golf Association", why not have the "Amatuer Disc Golf Association"? The idea that the majority of PDGA ams would not support the PDGAtour is interesting because I've seen several posts indicating the majority of disc golf media views come from am players.

That's a mis-reading of the organization name.

It's not an organization of professional disc golfers.

It's a professional organization of disc golfers.

I recall, quite a while back, a proposal to change the name, but it went nowhere.

So it's an organization of competitive disc golfers, somewhat arbitrarily labeled "Amateurs" and "Pros", including a pretty small portion of those "Pros" who are actually pros, in any real sense. It provides a structure for competition, from local levels to top levels, for all of those members. Unless the 99% of ams and local pros want it to devote their resources to the 1% of elite pros---or to being able to better watch them---it's not going to.

 

[Geer_Boggles]

Am player here. I love disc golf media coverage. All of it and every channel I can find. Jomez Pro, CCDG, Anhyzer TV, thediscgolfguy, everything aside from DGPT coverage. When it started I had zero expectations because as other people have stated, it's a huge undertaking that really hasn't been explored. First event that was covered had a terrible first and second round coverage. The 3rd round coverage was 100% wonderful to watch. Had a steady camera, minimal viewing interruptions and a graphical overlay of the player's scores on their respective card. From there it went downhill again. They got rid of the overlay so we have no idea where anyone is at the time of viewing unless we've been watching and keeping score ourselves. Call me a spoiled DG fan but these "small" things are very important to retaining a fan base.

I recently watched live coverage from "thediscgolfguy" using his iPhone and it was as good as DGPT coverage (not even lying). Only difference was it only had 720p resolution. Camera was very steady, was able to hear the players talk throughout the round which was excellent and got to see an excellent showing from JohnE Mccray. I would honestly watch this coverage again over DGPT anytime.

Back to the question at hand, "would I support and PDGA only media coverage of the 10-12 most elite tourneys each year?" Yes, I would to an extent. My loyalty to the different DG media companies makes me want to say no since their main source of revenue are these giant elite events. My question in turn would be how can we keep these companies in the mix while it falls under the PDGA's rule? If they are forced to only cover A-tiers and lower their viewer ratings, funding, and popularity would suffer greatly. If the PDGA idea is to work, it has to follow the same principal as today where each media company vies for the right to cover an event. The difference would be that the PDGA offers funding assistance to Tournament Directors or in some cases funds all of the media production.

In regards to the revenue for such an endeavor...I don't see why people are whining about membership fees either going up or being spent on media coverage while less is provided to us little people. I'm gonna get berated for this but what does the PDGA do aside from retain player ratings, number, and history of events (honest question)? What would force this to change? Ad revenue is a helluva drug. The PDGA would simply get a portion, or all, of the sponsor/ad revenue in return for either providing coverage or providing coverage assistance to TD's. DG is getting into a lot of money these days and there will be more going forward. It is too early to commit to such an idea but say in 3-5 years, this could be a viable and lucrative option for the PDGA, which would in turn result in more offerings to us little people. Can't only think about the short term on this one.

 

[CaptainAnhyzer]

Seems like a no-brainer (as long as you don't think about the logistics!)

Actually it's just the opposite of a no-brainer.
Any new tour plan will take MANY brains to accomplish.

 

[Hyzflip10]

Would love to see it come back as an organized tour. Seems like a no-brainer (as long as you don't think about the logistics!)

Everything is a no brainer until you think about the logistics.

Step 1: Someone wants PDGA to run all aspects of tour

Step 2: ???

Step 3: Profit!!

 

[JC17393]

oh.. so you're cool with them gobbling up Udisc and giving away a "free" membership when you register your pdga membership? C'mon... you know that's coming out of the membership fee as well.

Gobble up Udisc? They didn't "gobble up uDisc". They have a working partnership with uDisc as the official app of the PDGA but there is no ownership involved. I assume they took the money they've been spending for years developing a PDGA app of their own and invested it with uDisc in exchange for free membership to the app for PDGA members and uDisc dong live scoring for more PDGA events.

I have no idea the numbers but I would guess that what the PDGA invested in the uDisc partnership is a small fraction of what it would take to accomplish what you're proposing they do with the Pro tour. So yes, I'd have a bit more of a problem with my membership fees being spent on a bigger pro tour than I ever would with a partnership with uDisc.

 

[ejvogie]

Not to mention UDisc has more uses than just tracking what the touring pros are shooting at the event du jour.

 

[JC17393]

Not to mention UDisc has more uses than just tracking what the touring pros are shooting at the event du jour.

Exactly. The free uDisc membership is an instant $5 value to every PDGA member. An expanded pro tour consolidated into PDGA exclusive control is something that only tangibly benefits a small percentage of the overall membership.

 

[Tripper]

I am sure there are a number of people willing to buy content of any sort. I can't see that I would ever spend money on disc golf coverage. I will buy discs, the occasional players disc but other than that I can't see paying for coverage, heck, I dropped ESPN 3 years ago.

I see disc golf coverage as a hobby and not a scaleable business at this point, it could change but not anytime soon. Live coverage captured a few thousand people this past week on YouTube, edited coverage on the same venue on the captures 10-40 times that many views and had much better product IMO. The money of which there is not a bunch is in the edited product at this point. Eyeballs translate in to dollars and there is not a huge number of eyeballs across the country watching disc golf coverage.

Some thing to think about is last estimate I saw in a business journal was 530K(PARKED 2017 estimate)in the US for organized players. These would be players that take it fairly seriously. 530K is not a huge audience unless they all watch coverage and they don't. For those of you who think the 530K US organized player population is a low number, let's do some quick math. 50 states, at 500k that's 10,000 players per state. You really think Maine, Montana, North Dakota, Alaska, Rhode Island, or Hawaii have 10,000 organized players? Not picking on those locations, I just used them to illustrate my point concerning the math, 530K is a solid guess. Some of you will point out larger numbers exist if you include the rest of the world, and you would be correct, here's the issue I see current with their eyeballs. They don't watch US disc golf productions in any real numbers. By the way in 2012 the PDGA had an estimate of 500K, not as big a jump in organized players as many might think. Keep in mind everyone does not stay in the sport for ever, there are losses every year. I added the link below in case someone wants to see my source.

My point is this, this sport is still a hobby unless you make disc. Broadcasting revenue and coverage is a hobby. It's fun hobby for those who are chasing a dream. I like watching, just not spending money on it.


https://parkeddiscgolf.org/2018/12/01/a-demographic-portrait-of-disc-golf-land/
THE QUICK-AND-DIRTY

In 2017, the U.S. disc golfer population stood at roughly 530,000.
The number of women (15 percent) and racial minorities (9 percent) exceeded previous estimates, but these groups were clearly underrepresented.
The mean age of disc golfers was 33.
The percentage of disc golfers with some college education (36 percent) was surprisingly low.
Disc golf was more popular in the Midwest than in the Northeast, South and West.

LAST WORDS

Our population estimate should be treated as preliminary evidence that requires confirmation from future studies. Given the novelty of our methodology and the "known unknowns" involving lone wolves and small groups, it is possible that many more than 530,254 Americans play disc golf.

At the same time, the popular claim that millions of Americans play disc golf regularly should be scrutinized in view of the evidence provided here and common sense.

Consider, for instance, what the disc golf industry should look like if two or three million Americans played disc golf. In 2016, per the State of Disc Golf Survey, 33 percent of disc golfers spent between $200 and $499 per year; an additional 33 percent spent between $500 and $2,000. In short, the average disc golfer spends around $400 to $500 per year.

If two or three million Americans played, disc golf would be a billion-dollar industry based only on the expenditures of individual consumers.

Given the sport's lack of attention from television networks, outside investors and corporate sponsors, the U.S. disc golfer population is likely closer to 500,000 than two million.

While the 2017 estimate of 530,254 may seem low to many observers, it is not extremely low compared to some institutional estimates. For instance, the PDGA estimated that there were 500,000 "regular players" in the world in 2012. While there was tremendous growth over the next five years, a 2017 estimate of 530,254 disc golfers in the U.S. alone is not beyond reason.

To sum up the other findings of this study, the demographic data suggest that there are social constraints to playing disc golf involving the sex, race and geography of disc golfers, but that old age and low socio-economic status do not limit participation and may encourage it.

So far, I've only reviewed the demographics of the sample. In the next post, I'll talk about the "disc golf activity index" and consider how demographic categories predict players' level of involvement in the sport.

~~~

That was more words than I've ever heard you speak in person Eric.

 

[ChrisWoj]

As a PDGA member - if there was a bump in membership fees and it went toward producing high quality coverage? Awesome. A lot of people here are very against "supporting the pros" with the money of the members - but what I want as a fan, in addition to being a tournament player, is great coverage. If the pro players are elevated financially by the exposure - I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with this kind of money being involved directly in paying players on the tour - but their elevation as a result of having great live product? Sweet.

I'm okay with what the PDGA has done thus far for me as a player, what has happened in establishing IDGC, and so on - so I like how things are set up now. But if someone can find a way to afford better coverage, I'm for it.

 

[DavidSauls]

I was lost from the start:

What if the PDGA took control of all the elite events...

What does this mean? Just control of media rights? Or more?

If "more", the PDGA really doesn't have the resources to "take control". Everything is a partnership, with TDs and localities.

And just how would the PDGA control the creation of elite events? What stops someone outside from creating, say, the USDGC, or GBO, or Bowling Green; or a third party from stringing together a series of events and raising them to an elite level (DGPT, DGWT)? Who knows what elite event might be coming in the next few years, from somewhere other than up on high?

I'm a big PDGA supporter, but it doesn't have that sort of power. It can and does set standards, but only within the limits that someone will agree to meet them. Four years ago the elite events were the Majors and a half-dozen NTs, and that was as far as they could get.


And even if "take control" means only media, as someone has already said, why ordain one company as the provider of video for elite events, leaving the others to scrape by on lower tiers or disappear, thwarting competition and innovation---not to mention closing the door to any future companies that might jump in.

For those who really love the video coverage, I suggest you endure the hassle of multiple channels,, for the benefits of those channels each trying to outperform the others.

 

[ru4por]

Am player here. I love disc golf media coverage. All of it and every channel I can find. Jomez Pro, CCDG, Anhyzer TV, thediscgolfguy, everything aside from DGPT coverage. When it started I had zero expectations because as other people have stated, it's a huge undertaking that really hasn't been explored. First event that was covered had a terrible first and second round coverage. The 3rd round coverage was 100% wonderful to watch. Had a steady camera, minimal viewing interruptions and a graphical overlay of the player's scores on their respective card. From there it went downhill again. They got rid of the overlay so we have no idea where anyone is at the time of viewing unless we've been watching and keeping score ourselves. Call me a spoiled DG fan but these "small" things are very important to retaining a fan base.

I recently watched live coverage from "thediscgolfguy" using his iPhone and it was as good as DGPT coverage (not even lying). Only difference was it only had 720p resolution. Camera was very steady, was able to hear the players talk throughout the round which was excellent and got to see an excellent showing from JohnE Mccray. I would honestly watch this coverage again over DGPT anytime.

Back to the question at hand, "would I support and PDGA only media coverage of the 10-12 most elite tourneys each year?" Yes, I would to an extent. My loyalty to the different DG media companies makes me want to say no since their main source of revenue are these giant elite events. My question in turn would be how can we keep these companies in the mix while it falls under the PDGA's rule? If they are forced to only cover A-tiers and lower their viewer ratings, funding, and popularity would suffer greatly. If the PDGA idea is to work, it has to follow the same principal as today where each media company vies for the right to cover an event. The difference would be that the PDGA offers funding assistance to Tournament Directors or in some cases funds all of the media production.

In regards to the revenue for such an endeavor...I don't see why people are whining about membership fees either going up or being spent on media coverage while less is provided to us little people. I'm gonna get berated for this but what does the PDGA do aside from retain player ratings, number, and history of events (honest question)? What would force this to change? Ad revenue is a helluva drug. The PDGA would simply get a portion, or all, of the sponsor/ad revenue in return for either providing coverage or providing coverage assistance to TD's. DG is getting into a lot of money these days and there will be more going forward. It is too early to commit to such an idea but say in 3-5 years, this could be a viable and lucrative option for the PDGA, which would in turn result in more offerings to us little people. Can't only think about the short term on this one.

Why as an AM player, or even a fan, am I in the equation for "keeping any media company in the mix"? They are businesses. It seem like it is their responsibility for keeping themselves relevant. Same goes for Dodge and the DGPT and media. I appreciate the loyalty, but am I responsible for keeping Discraft in the game? (Not that McBeth needs my help)

The PDGA does bring more than posted above, to TD's and tournaments. They also are the regulatory body for tournament play and bring us a set of evolving rules. But, you are correct for the AM player like me. But, those reason are exactly why I pay and join the PDGA.

I guess my primary objection to the entire premise of the thread is....what is broken, that we are trying to fix? Seems like this is a veiled attempt to re-vilify Dodge and the DGPT. I mean, that is all good, but I don't imagine any new incantation of the DGPT, run by the PDGA or anyone, not going through the growing pain we seen now. I also think the idea would negatively impact the current role the PDGA fills.

 

[DiscFifty]

with uDisc as the official app of the PDGA but there is no ownership involved. I assume they took the money they've been spending for years developing a PDGA app of their own and invested it with uDisc in exchange for free membership to the app for PDGA members and uDisc dong live scoring for more PDGA events.

I have no idea the numbers but I would guess that what the PDGA invested in the uDisc partnership is a small fraction of what it would take to accomplish what you're proposing they do with the Pro tour. So yes, I'd have a bit more of a problem with my membership fees being spent on a bigger pro tour than I ever would with a partnership with uDisc.

Thanks, ok...so the PDGA does not own Udisc, but if they invested in it, I would assume there is some level of ownership for future roi. Membership fees are paying for the investment of internal app development, udisc partnerships, udisc doing live scoring for pdga events. You have no problem with your membership fees paying for that, but you wouldn't want your fees also going toward growing the pro side. okayyyyyy..

I haven't been around disc golf that long, but it's completely obvious the pro side is severely lacking when it comes to public awareness. Seems like every few years something comes along trying to get to the next level (which has to be growing the non player fan base). And then it sputters out. Why hasn't the PDGA addressed this...years ago? Is the am side of the organization so financially lucrative the pro side just isn't a priority?

If so...why not just keep things as they are with the PDGA and get a team together and start working on the PDGATOUR which focuses just on the pros? Would that be such a bad thing?

 

[DiscFifty]

Exactly. The free uDisc membership...

You've said "free" a few times now, do you really think NONE of our membership fees rather past or present, isn't paying for that?

 

[DiscFifty]

As a PDGA member - if there was a bump in membership fees and it went toward producing high quality coverage? Awesome. A lot of people here are very against "supporting the pros" with the money of the members - but what I want as a fan, in addition to being a tournament player, is great coverage. If the pro players are elevated financially by the exposure - I'm okay with that. I'm not okay with this kind of money being involved directly in paying players on the tour - but their elevation as a result of having great live product? Sweet.

Exactly. Thank you for making this very simple to understand.:clap:

 

[ru4por]

Thanks, ok...so the PDGA does not own Udisc, but if they invested in it, I would assume there is some level of ownership for future roi. Membership fees are paying for the investment of internal app development, udisc partnerships, udisc doing live scoring for pdga events. You have no problem with your membership fees paying for that, but you wouldn't want your fees also going toward growing the pro side. okayyyyyy..

I haven't been around disc golf that long, but it's completely obvious the pro side is severely lacking when it comes to public awareness. Seems like every few years something comes along trying to get to the next level (which has to be growing the non player fan base). And then it sputters out. Why hasn't the PDGA addressed this...years ago? Is the am side of the organization so financially lucrative the pro side just isn't a priority?

If so...why not just keep things as they are with the PDGA and get a team together and start working on the PDGATOUR which focuses just on the pros? Would that be such a bad thing?

I have zero interest in the promotion of touring pros. Perhaps one could lean on the "grow the game" angle, but I have no interest in that, outside of doing so in my area, on a grassroots level. If touring pros want a better gig, they should pool some money, resources and investment dollars and do so.

We are going to fail to see this the same way, because I think the idea of a non-player fan base is a fantasy.

I think the last bolded idea is great. I also believe that current touring pros should do exactly this. It would have no impact on me, but it could give them a chance to grow that tiny part of the game.