Maybe GYRO is Just a Gimmick...

[brutalbrutus]

opcorn:

 

[oldmandiscer]

That was an interesting watch. I think the overall disc shape contributes by far the highest percentage into flight characteristics. Mids and putters are straighter because the wings are narrow and the edges are blunt. It's not forcing the disc into under and over stability. Just neutral.

Does MVP's 5% greater MOI do anything. I doubt it makes much difference after watching this video. I never thought they flew straighter or further before compared to other discs myself. Not that they are worse, I just don't think they are better. Like he said, the amount of weight moved is minimal as well.

I think his theory about all discs already achieving a high gyroscopic stability in flight is a good one.

 

[Ryan C]

Way back in the days of Dicgolfreview.com, someone tore a few of their discs apart and weighed out all the materials. Even back when they were a new company we kinda knew it was a gimmick. But yeah, the fanboys took that company and ran with it.

Its fine though. Their discs fly pretty well and people should throw whatever they like, even if it's a placebo.

 

[Monocacy]

Hey, the placebo effect is real. Don't knock it.

Does gyro work? I dunno.

But I bag a couple of MVP/Axiom discs because:

1) I like how they fly;
2) Available in the light weights I prefer; and
3) New ones seem to fly just like the last batch.

Works for me.

Edit: And I remember that DGR thread.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Interesting vid. Kudos to the guy for actually building prototypes and following up with actual fieldwork. :thmbup:

Increasing MOI would reduce turn and fade. That's not always a good thing. Sometimes we throw certain discs specifically for their ability to turn or fade... or both. Not necessarily the only way to shape a shot, but a damned good one.

One could argue that Blizzard, Star Lite, Z-Lite, Air etc. should have just the opposite effect, because most of the weight removal occurs from the rim, and not the flight plate, (the exception being the first year or so of Blizzard runs, where you could clearly see bubble in the flight plate). I don't see those discs having significantly more pronounced turn/fade than their "normally" constructed counterparts.

The whole weight distribution thing is intriguing, but I think it's effect on overall flight is moderate at best.

If MVP really wanted to demonstrate the significance of gyro, they could create an overmolded and single piece version of the same disc, same weight, same plastic and filed test for differences. I suspect they'd never do that, because the results would be too similar.

Gyro... not a complete gimmick, but it's relatively down the list of factors affecting flight.
The Amp is the only overmold in may bag, and that isn't changing anytime soon.

 

[Ryan C]

I used to say on the old forums all the time, that even if Gyro does make a disc fly significantly differently, sometimes that difference isn't going to be desirable. It will make a disc more resistant to turn and fade, so straighter/more stable. Sometimes you want a disc that will easily do turn-over lines or S shapes. Gyro is going to inhibit that. So like with all discs, throw whatever you like and works for you, knowing there is not magic technology out there.

That being said, I don't think MVP/Axiom flies differently from anything else, but they do have some excellent molds.

 

[Emoney]

I feel mvp discs do fly straighter and stay locked on a line.
That could be due to most of the 10 speed and under mvp/axiom molds having no dome(from my experience).

Either way...i have a karate chop forehand. With a Force i get that anny flex forehand to fight out pretty easy.

With every OS Mvp/Axiom driver i have tried (for anny flex karate chop forehand) they hold the anny too long before flexing out. Out of the almost 10 molds i tried, this was consistent for me.

I only use 3 molds from them after trying to make a full Gyro bag a while ago. Envy, Volt, Mayhem

 

[DanJon]

See the issue is that you're just not putting enough spin on it.

 

[wolfhaley]

Gimmick or not, the Envy is amazing.

 

[Dingus]

Let me CNC machine this disc in two different materials, and have a perfect metal ring fabricated. Hmmm isn't quite strong enough just throw some tape on it.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

I believe Gyro is real! And almost to a point where too many of their discs have that straight stable kind of flight. If it's an overmold it has a certain straight flight. Whether that makes it better or not is up to the thrower.

I find their light discs are freaking magical, though in theory they would be the least gyro.. Less weight means less weight in the rim... but they are really true to flight even in such a light weight.

The putters are a good example, you really need to get em up to speed to work right.. They're long! Don't do short quite as well though, less glidey. Need to spin it to win it!

If it's a placebo I swallowed that sucker and I'm cured of single mold desires. Except the Comet...

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I find their light discs are freaking magical, though in theory they would be the least gyro.. Less weight means less weight in the rim... but they are really true to flight even in such a light weight.

Thought I heard that for given mold, all the rims are the same weight, and that the cores are what determined the final disc's weight.

If so, then their lighter discs would have more gyro effect than their heavier discs, because more of the mass is in the rim, less in the core.

Maybe someone can confirm that, or perhaps it's in the thread Tbird linked.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Thought I heard that for given mold, all the rims are the same weight, and that the cores are what determined the final disc's weight.

If so, then their lighter discs would have more gyro effect than their heavier discs, because more of the mass is in the rim, less in the core.

Maybe someone can confirm that, or perhaps it's in the thread Tbird linked.

The way I remember it the different flight plates were the same weight and the extra was in the rim.. But that a different flight plate was used for different weight ranges (2 plates.. 1 for 150 and 1 for 170 classes).

Though now that you mention it some of the lighter stuff does seem more stable, I feel like the Ohm for example is straighter or has a straighter path in a heavy weight (except for the weight part of course)

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Gyro: works best with tzatziki sauce.

 

[tbonesocrul]

From my experience as a mech. engineer at my company, we would certainly celebrate a 5% change in many of our targeted design variables. To people who look at the 5% change in MoI and say that it is "just a gimmick" or "not enough" to make a difference, at what point would you say it matters?

Lets use disc mass as an example. Would you bag multiples of the same mold in different weights?
A 5% decrease in mass from a disc at 175g is a little over 8g making this lighter disc about 167g. Assuming all solo-mold discs are constant density these lighter discs should also have a 5% reduction in MoI making them turn & fade more.

I've heard a few common explanations for why people enjoy throwing lightweight discs, they are easier to flip, you can throw them at a higher speed, and just less stress on the body overall. I totally understand the "easier to flip" portion just looking at the MoI. I'm more skeptical that you get a 1:1 improvement in disc speed because I think a lot of the energy/effort put into a throw also has to go into accelerating your arm and rotating your trunk to some degree. Not all of the energy/effort goes into the disc.

If gyro is a gimmick, is disc weight a gimmick as well?
At what % does it no longer become a gimmick and becomes a noticeable difference you might seek out.

I am also not trying to advocate that Gyro is the best in all scenarios, just that it has a measurable difference of similar magnitude to other factors that people care about and don't seem to doubt or question.

Maybe the greatest contribution from Gyro is that you can choose lightweight discs to get the benefits of less stress and possibly some disc speed improvement without sacrificing as much stability in the disc.

 

[Countchunkula]

I'm with Bogey.

My wife (who's half greek) orders hers plain. smh

 

[Ryan C]

From my experience as a mech. engineer at my company, we would certainly celebrate a 5% change in many of our targeted design variables. To people who look at the 5% change in MoI and say that it is "just a gimmick" or "not enough" to make a difference, at what point would you say it matters?

Lets use disc mass as an example. Would you bag multiples of the same mold in different weights?
A 5% decrease in mass from a disc at 175g is a little over 8g making this lighter disc about 167g. Assuming all solo-mold discs are constant density these lighter discs should also have a 5% reduction in MoI making them turn & fade more.

I've heard a few common explanations for why people enjoy throwing lightweight discs, they are easier to flip, you can throw them at a higher speed, and just less stress on the body overall. I totally understand the "easier to flip" portion just looking at the MoI. I'm more skeptical that you get a 1:1 improvement in disc speed because I think a lot of the energy/effort put into a throw also has to go into accelerating your arm and rotating your trunk to some degree. Not all of the energy/effort goes into the disc.

If gyro is a gimmick, is disc weight a gimmick as well?
At what % does it no longer become a gimmick and becomes a noticeable difference you might seek out.

I agree with your main point, but that isn't quite what's going on with MVP. If we could say "this Gyro disc flies 5% farther," I agree that would be huge. But we can't. If we could say "it flies 5% straighter," then that would be huge. But we can't. MVP just moved around 5% of the mass of the disc closer to the edge, and unfortunately we can't actually demonstrate that is making any practical difference in the final result of the throw.

Individual throwers are also too unique to really quantify this stuff. I know that Streamline is now making one of the MVP molds in a "single mold" configuration, so without the Gyro. If someone really wanted to know, they could try each version and see if it made a practical difference for them. My guess is that it would not. The variation from one throw to the next is going to be greater than the variation gained by moving a small percent of the disc's mass closer to the rim.

And I say this as someone who has thrown quite a few MVP/Axiom discs and really enjoyed them.

Oh, and for those who were talking about it. We found when we tore them apart that the extra weight is in the rim, and MVP only makes 2 weights for the flight plates. I don't remember the cutoff, but somewhere between like 165g and 180g the flight plates are all the same. So it would actually be the heavier discs that are slightly more gyroscopic.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

I believe the dual gyro/ single mold is the Ohm and Pilot though personally I wonder about the drift and relay.. I haven't thrown a pilot or a drift.

Marm-O-Set has thrown both, big pilot fan and he was super excited for the Ohm.. He felt the Ohm glided better with a touch more stability I think.. Ask him.

 

[zenbot]

See the issue is that you're just not putting enough spin on it.

Release the GYRO™!

 

[BogeyNoMore]

From my experience as a mech. engineer at my company, we would certainly celebrate a 5% change in many of our targeted design variables. To people who look at the 5% change in MoI and say that it is "just a gimmick" or "not enough" to make a difference, at what point would you say it matters?

Lets use disc mass as an example. Would you bag multiples of the same mold in different weights?
A 5% decrease in mass from a disc at 175g is a little over 8g making this lighter disc about 167g. Assuming all solo-mold discs are constant density these lighter discs should also have a 5% reduction in MoI making them turn & fade more.

I've heard a few common explanations for why people enjoy throwing lightweight discs, they are easier to flip, you can throw them at a higher speed, and just less stress on the body overall. I totally understand the "easier to flip" portion just looking at the MoI. I'm more skeptical that you get a 1:1 improvement in disc speed because I think a lot of the energy/effort put into a throw also has to go into accelerating your arm and rotating your trunk to some degree. Not all of the energy/effort goes into the disc.

If gyro is a gimmick, is disc weight a gimmick as well?
At what % does it no longer become a gimmick and becomes a noticeable difference you might seek out.

I am also not trying to advocate that Gyro is the best in all scenarios, just that it has a measurable difference of similar magnitude to other factors that people care about and don't seem to doubt or question.

Maybe the greatest contribution from Gyro is that you can choose lightweight discs to get the benefits of less stress and possibly some disc speed improvement without sacrificing as much stability in the disc.

Most players will acknowledge a 5 gram difference in disc mass makes a noticeable difference.

5g rounds to 3% when you consider disc weights of 150 (3.33%) to 170 (2.94%) grams.

So a 5% change in a variable can make a pretty noticeable difference. But not all factors necessarily work the same way.