Form check RHBH

[semisensei]

Thanks SW - can't tell you how much I appreciate the feedback.

Of course- my house of cards swing easily falls apart when it's not built on a solid foundation! I will focus on the footwork this week.

It's funny that I kind of have my leg extension backwards- as in, my left leg is straight and right leg bent going into plant. But if I understand you correctly, I should have my left leg bent and right leg straight going into the can crush. I think this confusion on my part was because I was focusing on staying "tall" on the left leg going through the x-step.

 

[semisensei]

Ok I got some field reps in, focusing on inward rotation of hips (knees together, ride the bull), and the gas pedal. I can feel the swing is "tighter" and more connected to the ground when I get it right. How do these look?

https://youtu.be/I-GZqm1SFbI

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like you are manipulating too wide. You are aiming the swing to the right diagonal for a right to left hyzer. Kyle and I are swinging to the left diagonal on a distance line.

 

[semisensei]

So should the arm angle at top of backswing match the trajectory line?

I'm consciously manipulating wide here to avoid rounding, a la wide rail/KJ/Oakley/Wiggins/Withers.
I find it helps me get a cleaner nose down release. It's a lot more pronounced the slower my throw- upshots are almost like I am reaching back 90 degrees to my trajectory angle, then bringing the disc in and and back out to release.

However, if that is not a best practice I am certainly open to switching it up. But maybe I am misunderstanding?


One thing I noticed about my swing after reviewing the last clips myself is that I think I am still struggling with a habit of starting the backswing too early- the disc is already behind me (shoulders turned back) when my left foot gets weighted, causing the arm to extend far behind me, and the disc to drag into the downswing (leading to nose up). I'm pumping forward with my arm, but my shoulders are already moving backwards, and my hips are fully closed going into the x-step. I'm thinking of trying to keep my shoulders more in line to target longer (until left foot gets weighted) before starting the backswing.
Do you think that will be a helpful line if inquiry? Or does it matter?
Thanks again

 

[sidewinder22]

Shorter shots can be "wider" or more westward in the backswing, so the swing is more like >. This is a physics trick of sorts that makes it snappier/spinnier at a cost of ejection speed and tougher on arm joints.

If you want max distance without killing your joints, you need to heave it further back more inline to trajectory like battering ram or sledgehammer. Try some 360s. You can swing the disc wherever, so long as the upper arm is still wide enough so the left shoulder doesn't get in the way of the disc swinging into center.

 

[semisensei]

I keep coming back to the wide rail as I find it's the only way I can reliably keep it nose down. When I pull in my reach back I have trouble with rounding and nose up. Even with the wide rail, when looking at my behind the tee clip, my reach back actually looks like it's in line with disc trajectory- my x-step direction is about 30 degrees angled left of my trajectory line.


I've been focusing on timing- keeping the disc even with my back foot, rather than way behind it, helps with consistent nose down, clean release.
Things are feeling smooth and consistent between 350-380, but I feel like I'm hitting a wall here.

https://youtu.be/2yrLU5937Gw

 

[sidewinder22]

Note sure what style you are really going for. Most wide railers move the disc more in/out during the backswing. You have a similar pump to McBeth, but he really moves the disc in/out from his center.

You kind of just set the disc in place wide which pulls your balance over your toes too much.

 

[semisensei]

Thanks again, SW22. Always sage advice. Unfortunately, before I got a chance to try any 360s or a more inline backswing, I broke both my wrists in a bike accident. Major bummer - I was forced into a 3 month hiatus from disc golf (and anything else that's fun, for that matter). Left need surgery, and thankfully my right wrist had a less consequential fracture.

But as it turns out, time away from the game actually seems to have helped me in the long run. As I slowly reentered my field practice, I started spending more time doing drills than I did throwing, with the idea that I was already primed for a reprogramming after having spent so much time away. I did hammer tossing, one steppers, and my new favorite: cut rollers with over stable discs. I had seen the drill on a Stokely vid a while back but never gave it a try, and when a friend recommended it as well, I gave it a shot. And in the course of a single session: BOOM my nose up issues evaporated. Once I figured out how to throw a good cut roller, the light bulb went on: o think I felt a real "full hit" snap for the first time. I was elated (I'd been fighting subtle nose up issues for well over a year). My feel was not real, to say the least. I had been pronating through the hit (the idea of "thumb pushing," or at least my understanding of it, really messed me up), causing a slight nose up angle and a loss of leverage right at the end of my swing, leading to half hitting.

So I am excited for that: discs are flying straighter, turning over more, and I am getting way more consistently into that 350-380 range. I think before I could only get it out that far when I got the nose right, which happens by accident and maybe 30% of the time. Now, I can get 80% of my throws past 350 and 20% out to 380-400. So that's positive, but I'm still hitting a ceiling (just more consistently, lol).

Here are three recent drives:

https://youtu.be/j8bTzfBjmrk

My focus on these was whipping from my left should as opposed to the right, not manipulating wide, and that nose down hit. Thanks in advance for any insight!

 

[semisensei]

Some things I think I can work on:
-fixing my early/short pump that leads to me reaching full extended arm too soon, behind my rear foot, causing it to pendulum up and swoop.
-stronger core activation: avoid anterior pelvic tilt
-shorter stride? Am I getting caught behind my plant foot and jamming? Feels like a finish nice and balanced, but am I losing energy with the long step?

What else? And what focus would have the most leverage to start with?

Thanks in advance!

 

[jupiterboy]

Shorter strides, but like mentioned, if you allow the disc path to come in—think bouncing off your left pectoral—you may find more late acceleration/power and more consistency, counterintuitively.

 

[semisensei]

Shorter strides, but like mentioned, if you allow the disc path to come in—think bouncing off your left pectoral—you may find more late acceleration/power and more consistency, counterintuitively.

Awesome, I will try that, thanks!
Do you think the issue is that I am not getting the disc close enough to the left pec when swinging through? Or is it that I should start my outward arc sooner?

 

[jupiterboy]

Awesome, I will try that, thanks!
Do you think the issue is that I am not getting the disc close enough to the left pec when swinging through? Or is it that I should start my outward arc sooner?

When I'm working on stand still shots, if I loosed my grip just a little and give the disc some breathing room, then focus on letting the disc fall back in toward my left pec before it flings out, I get a natural acceleration and spin that is otherwise lacking. Evidence is that the disc will hyzer flip or turn more depending on release angle. Seems to give more consistent releases, too. If my arm gets tight, I'll over-guide the disc, put too much control on it, and it holds it back.

I don't know that you'll have control over when the arc starts. If I have good lag it will all just happen.

Try a couple standstills and see what it does. If it feels right and you see results, work it.

 

[jupiterboy]

When I'm working on stand still shots, if I loosed my grip just a little and give the disc some breathing room, then focus on letting the disc fall back in toward my left pec before it flings out, I get a natural acceleration and spin that is otherwise lacking. Evidence is that the disc will hyzer flip or turn more depending on release angle. Seems to give more consistent releases, too. If my arm gets tight, I'll over-guide the disc, put too much control on it, and it holds it back.

I don't know that you'll have control over when the arc starts. If I have good lag it will all just happen.

Try a couple standstills and see what it does. If it feels right and you see results, work it.

What I'm not getting across here, too, is some subtlety in the wrist. Some people throw with it all locked down, so that may not work for you, but probably worth a try.

 

[Brychanus]

Some things I think I can work on:
-fixing my early/short pump that leads to me reaching full extended arm too soon, behind my rear foot, causing it to pendulum up and swoop.
-stronger core activation: avoid anterior pelvic tilt
-shorter stride? Am I getting caught behind my plant foot and jamming? Feels like a finish nice and balanced, but am I losing energy with the long step?

What else? And what focus would have the most leverage to start with?

Thanks in advance!

I do not think that your body ever encoded one of the fundamental lessons of Can Can, Riding the Bull, or Double Dragon & similar moves (post 102 & before in this thread). It's related to how your legs move and why you're trapped a bit between your feet. You are landing behind your plant to prevent yourself from falling out of control past it and careening around the brace.

Watch his pelvis swaying like a pendulum from the head into the backswing and forward swing. It's more subtle in the real swing, but look for it:



Paul penduluming from head to pelvis:

Right now, your spine is staying too static without penduluming back and forth, so your throw functions more like the guy on the left - rotating the shoulders around a post or spring. We want to be more like the guy on the right - a tilted axis loading the right sling muscles in the core.

So you could fuss with your strides, but I suspect that you'll get stuck because you haven't learned how to sweep the legs and body together like those drills. You could post one of them.

Many of us are having fun with Door Frame right now and that will be instructive so feel free to post that too

 

[semisensei]

I do not think that your body ever encoded one of the fundamental lessons of Can Can, Riding the Bull, or Double Dragon & similar moves (post 102 & before in this thread). It's related to how your legs move and why you're trapped a bit between your feet. You are landing behind your plant to prevent yourself from falling out of control past it and careening around the brace.

Watch his pelvis swaying like a pendulum from the head into the backswing and forward swing. It's more subtle in the real swing, but look for it:



Paul penduluming from head to pelvis:

Right now, your spine is staying too static without penduluming back and forth, so your throw functions more like the guy on the left - rotating the shoulders around a post or spring. We want to be more like the guy on the right - a tilted axis loading the right sling muscles in the core.

So you could fuss with your strides, but I suspect that you'll get stuck because you haven't learned how to sweep the legs and body together like those drills. You could post one of them.

Many of us are having fun with Door Frame right now and that will be instructive so feel free to post that too

Thanks, Brychanus. So appreciated.
That's a good idea on posting the drills - I will do so this evening!

I am having trouble wrapping my head around the "pelvis swaying like a pendulum from the head." Is the idea that I should be leaning towards the target with my weight on my left leg (falling towards target, in the Door Frame position), and then get my right foot underneath me to "catch" my center of gravity so I dont fall?

 

[jupiterboy]

I think the point is that the pelvis is a bit of a bowl, and your lower spine moves within that bowl which is also moving in a very complex way, but your sternum should stay more or less centered between you feet—not out over or beyond you feet in either direction.

It's that shifting angle of the hips—fig. 2–3 above—where the magic happens. That shift also makes the brace work properly. That final hip angle in the brace happens when the drive leg drops out of the action and the brace leg becomes a single point balance.

If that's wrong someone will pop in and poke me in the eye and tell me to shut up.

 

[sidewinder22]

Left pec is basically still rounding IMO. Center chest or right pec.

The early turn back (on wrong leg) is main issue I see. If you Kick The Can with the left foot your pelvis shouldn't really start turning back until after you land on left foot(Pelvis should start slightly closed - just not rotating). The leg kick keeps everything moving laterally(pelvis still slightly closed) as you stride/hop. Slightly staggered stance should slightly close the pelvis.

 

[semisensei]

Thanks, SW22 - makes perfect sense. Early turn back probably has everything to do with my leaving the disc behind me and reaching peak reach back too early. And my struggles loading up my left leg in the Door Frame.

Brychanus - I'm still kind of confused by the idea of the pelvis swinging like a pendulum under the head. I guess I'm having some cognitive dissonance between the idea of "leading with the hips," Door Frame, and Hershyzer drill and the Can Can or Double Dragon that keeps the head right between the feet in dynamic balance. Is it that my head is behind my hips going into the stride, getting dragged and then kind of catapulted over the top? Adding to my confusion, it seems to me that SW22 is doing something similar in the video you linked, the SW 3D Inference Test.

While Paul's pelvis rocking makes sense to me (upwards side toward weighted leg), I still don't see the spine pendulum connecting the head to the pelvis. In my mind it is still more of a catapult than a pendulum, even with the red lines drawn. Any clarity you can provide would be appreciated!

 

[Brychanus]

Follow his lead on the coaching cue, but wanted to reply to your Q.

The head pendulum notion is baked into a lot of SW22 and golf content. Both head videos from SW22 are getting at this idea. This golf video he passed to me helped me understand it further.



Trouble is this dynamic alignments are not just about the head per se, but it is always useful to be aware of.

 

[semisensei]

Follow his lead on the coaching cue, but wanted to reply to your Q.

The head pendulum notion is baked into a lot of SW22 and golf content. Both head videos from SW22 are getting at this idea. This golf video he passed to me helped me understand it further.



Trouble is this dynamic alignments are not just about the head per se, but it is always useful to be aware of.

Thanks for the response - that video really spoke to me!
I think I may have misunderstood your points about the pendulum because I was thinking of a different part of the swing. Yes, it makes absolute perfect sense that in the weight shift, the hips pendulum under the head (like a skier between turns, like a skater skating). I can see how I can get my hips a little looser, and how my wide stance into the plant limits my hips ability to move.

My focus had been on how the spine moves through the swing/follow through - it seems to me that the spine does sort of catapult forward over the plant leg into the follow through.

Rain has finally let up in in the NW - headed out for some field reps shortly, will report back