Form check RHBH

[semisensei]

Back at it in the field - our family and I welcomed a new baby to the family so time for practice has been more limited stoked to get some rounds in recently though.

I've been focusing on breaking the habit of the early turn back, but it has been really difficult for me to break it! My solution/hack to it is to focus on keeping both shoulders lined up to the target line as long as possible, until weight gets onto the left foot. An exaggerated left hand pump has helped me with this, as it's my left shoulder that wants to sneak back with my hips early. I have noticed that my left leg feels so much more "loaded" doing this, and have noticed a pretty significant increase in power.

when I hit it right, I am seeing some great results. Feels like I'm on the right track. I still see a bit of "swoop" in my swing but I'm not sure if it really matters? Thinking it might be caused by still turning back a bit early, leaving the disc a little too far behind me. Your thoughts?

Hoping for some insight into what to focus on next. Thanks y'all!

https://youtu.be/FNcyl1hcjyE

 

[semisensei]

And if anybody has any tips on how to cure early turn back syndrome I'll try anything at this point!

 

[sidewinder22]

You aren't sitting/coiling back enough into your rear hip, completing the backswing. You are extending your rear hip into the plant and getting stuck on both feet.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3875012&postcount=81

 

[semisensei]

So am I moving too quickly over the left leg? Should I let the weight settle into the left leg more as I sit/coil?
I guess I don't fully understand. How will the feeling be different when I actually "complete the backswing?"
Thank you!

 

[Brychanus]

IMO it feels more like you're just flowing or dropping off the rear side. We say that a lot around here, but I have a couple recent observations.

There's a weird sweet spot where you feel like your rear leg is still helping you flow forward with your mass leading while you're coiling up, and your mass is kind of flowing down a curved ramp into the plant (what SW calls the Brinsterochrone curve). This is an earlier post about it. I don't think I felt the relationship between this idea and my form until some recent standstills. It's very elusive in x-step so I recommend working on them side-by-side.

FWIW, I'm also finding this easier to work on with a full windmill pendulum pump in standstills before x-stepping because it always seems easier to let the arm pull me taut all the way back against the rear leg while my body transitions forward. Sometimes I kind of march in place or do some double dragon or E-Walk before I throw to make sure my weight is getting all the way back and forth between the feet with my arm swinging. Being just slightly out of posture or tempo tends to get the rear side outta whack moving off that leg. Trying to force posture usually backfires (for me, anyway).

If you don't want to full pendulum, I might still try making it more like Paul's half-pendulum here. Recall that he used to be a full pendulum thrower early on and we'd guess that it helped him connect the dots w/ the baseball-like mechanics, including what you're struggling with now:

https://youtu.be/o_uBSYd5goc?t=75


When you hit a good one you'll actually feel like your body is riding the yellow roller coaster from the rear leg to the front leg. I'm not sure I've ever felt as "yellow curvey" with bad extension off the rear leg as when I drop better. It's a really cool feeling when you get it. It really does feel like flowing down a baby rollercoaster curve into the plant.

The issue is that the stride is moving horizontal and vertical in a straight diagonal(Green), instead of a brachistochrone curve(Yellow) dropping vertical more than horizontal and then more horizontal than vertical.

 

[semisensei]

Thanks, Brychanus. I think you're onto something here. I may have a fundamental misunderstanding going on conceptually - I always thought the talk about the B-curve had to do with the CoG moving over the plant leg: weight starts up high on left leg in x-step, and crashes down into the plant, and the right leg resists the downward force, causing the flattening part of the curve.

But if I understand your point correctly, the B-curve really describes the vertical CoG movement over the left leg, before the weight shift. The left leg translates the vertical energy (thanks gravity) into horizontal energy into the weight shift, then the right leg braces and sends that energy up the kinetic chain. Did I get that right?

 

[semisensei]

I can see how I'm coming over the top of my back leg. In terms of drills that can help me get the right feel, would the Loading the Bow and Arrow apply here? And Door Frame?

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks, Brychanus. I think you're onto something here. I may have a fundamental misunderstanding going on conceptually - I always thought the talk about the B-curve had to do with the CoG moving over the plant leg: weight starts up high on left leg in x-step, and crashes down into the plant, and the right leg resists the downward force, causing the flattening part of the curve.

But if I understand your point correctly, the B-curve really describes the vertical CoG movement over the left leg, before the weight shift. The left leg translates the vertical energy (thanks gravity) into horizontal energy into the weight shift, then the right leg braces and sends that energy up the kinetic chain. Did I get that right?

I think "almost", but eyeing SW for a 2nd opinion.

If you go back to his original post, notice that there's still an upward part of the arc in this gif:

And that's why he paired it with Brinster here:

The upward part of the red curve at the end is ideally what you want to happen as the plant lands and resists the ground. On this shot by Paul you can see part of how the tilted axis works with that huge ground force reaction in the plant leg. Relative to the ground his leading hip is "posting up" vertically quite a ways against the ground, with just enough horizontal to get the swing through on the right axis.
https://youtu.be/ObCFTTl4-5o?t=60

Anyway, we both know how easy it is to overthink this stuff, so let's just move instead. I think Door Frame and Load the Bow are good at the moment. You want to focus on getting nicely extended against the frame until you naturally fall into the "drop" part. FWIW it took me the better part of two weeks fussing with it with SW and flashblast's feedback just to convince my body to do that remotely correctly, and still more work moving off the rear leg after that. So you might want to post one of those drills.

Currently once I come off the frame, I personally find it a little easier to find the "curvy" flow of B-curve and connection to the tilted axis and "drop" with a bit of stagger in my standstill stance. But I think that depends on how developed other parts of the standstill are.

Also, bumping this really good advice. I forgot where I saw it and am adding it to Fundamentals. FWIW I messed with this myself for upshots and find the advantages + the joint strain points both to be true. As soon as I switched back to the full pendulum pulled taut this week for x-step it helped my arm mechanics and generally took a lot of stress off my arm joints. Same notion as Door Frame Drill. When I switched to other pump styles I learned other things, but it was never as easy to work on the rear side and get the right tension etc. as with a half (modern McBeth) or full pendulum pump:

Shorter shots can be "wider" or more westward in the backswing, so the swing is more like >. This is a physics trick of sorts that makes it snappier/spinnier at a cost of ejection speed and tougher on arm joints.

If you want max distance without killing your joints, you need to heave it further back more inline to trajectory like battering ram or sledgehammer. Try some 360s. You can swing the disc wherever, so long as the upper arm is still wide enough so the left shoulder doesn't get in the way of the disc swinging into center.

And I missed it - congrats on the baby!!! We're expecting our 2nd in September (1 day after our first's 2nd birthday!)

 

[semisensei]

Thanks again, Brychanus. And congrats yourself! Our kids’ birthdays are very close as well- two days under two years apart haha. We are really enjoying the process this second time around - much less anxiety, and much more living in the present moment and enjoying every stage of it. Even the lack of sleep is a bit easier with #2

I’m going to play around with those drills and see if I can find a feel for loading the left leg a bit more. My legs seem to be kind of backwards in terms of extension: while Brinster has his left leg loaded in the stride with right leg straight(ish), my left leg is extended while my right is bent going into the brace. Likely because I am coming in over the top of my left leg, falling into the brace. I think my mindset has been trying to juice vertical force by coming into the plant from as high as possible.

And that nugget about the wide reach back vs full pendulum is actually from my form analysis thread
I still like the wide backswing for upshots, and I seem to naturally get more inline to target trajectory as I go deeper into the coil.
But that leads me to another question about SW’s post: what does it mean to “finish the backswing” vs what I assume would be cutting it off early?

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks again, Brychanus. And congrats yourself! Our kidsÂ' birthdays are very close as well- two days under two years apart haha. We are really enjoying the process this second time around - much less anxiety, and much more living in the present moment and enjoying every stage of it. Even the lack of sleep is a bit easier with #2

IÂ'm going to play around with those drills and see if I can find a feel for loading the left leg a bit more. My legs seem to be kind of backwards in terms of extension: while Brinster has his left leg loaded in the stride with right leg straight(ish), my left leg is extended while my right is bent going into the brace. Likely because I am coming in over the top of my left leg, falling into the brace. I think my mindset has been trying to juice vertical force by coming into the plant from as high as possible.

And that nugget about the wide reach back vs full pendulum is actually from my form analysis thread
I still like the wide backswing for upshots, and I seem to naturally get more inline to target trajectory as I go deeper into the coil.
But that leads me to another question about SWÂ's post: what does it mean to Â"finish the backswingÂ" vs what I assume would be cutting it off early?

Thanks! We'll see if we get the rare same birthday between the two of them lol. Good to know some of the learning applies to #2.

I bumped into that form nugget when skimming back through what you'd been up to most recently here & was glad I did, so I wanted to pump up its visibility.

For "finish the backswing" - SW probably sees a few things, but note how Bradley gets his body more coiled into that rear hip so it's easier for him to leverage forward and drop off that rear leg rather than extend. You ideally want that looooong backswing process to unfold. I think since you never quite got coiled in properly your leg has no choice but to do what it's doing there. Bradley probably feels way more coiled w/ firm leverage in his rear hip than you're getting as his backswing completes. I picked him because he also tends to use a half pendulum pump.

So DFD, Load the bow are good. Double Dragon and Open To Closed Drill come to mind too.

 

[semisensei]

I got out and tried some Open to Closed drill and some crow hops off the left foot to try and get the feeling of loading the left leg and getting the glute to turn on a bit more. Definitely felt more springy, and although I wasn't throwing max effort, I had a few throws where the timing came together and I threw the disc very far.

Check it out:

https://youtu.be/r4M9UhVdOvI

On the right track in terms of the left leg?

 

[bryantlikes]

I got out and tried some Open to Closed drill

I'd suggest posting videos of the drills themselves. Much easier to see what is going on that way.

 

[semisensei]

You aren't sitting/coiling back enough into your rear hip, completing the backswing. You are extending your rear hip into the plant and getting stuck on both feet.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3875012&postcount=81

When you say I'm not completing the backswing, does that mean I'm not coiling/turning back far enough? That I should get my shoulders more turned so that I would go into the plant more "from behind?"

 

[Brychanus]

I'd suggest posting videos of the drills themselves. Much easier to see what is going on that way.

I got out and tried some Open to Closed drill and some crow hops off the left foot to try and get the feeling of loading the left leg and getting the glute to turn on a bit more. Definitely felt more springy, and although I wasn't throwing max effort, I had a few throws where the timing came together and I threw the disc very far.

Check it out:

https://youtu.be/r4M9UhVdOvI

On the right track in terms of the left leg?

When you say I'm not completing the backswing, does that mean I'm not coiling/turning back far enough? That I should get my shoulders more turned so that I would go into the plant more "from behind?"

I agree with Bryant. I see a mechanical problem in how you coil into the rear hip and leg. So in your Uli hop you still are getting too much of the action I pointed out in post 130, and not what Bradley's getting with his hip internally rotating into the backswing. I do not think you can complete the backswing without the correct action. I'd bet you aren't getting it quite right in the OtC drill either.

I think some of it is related to your tilt or side bend in your upper body, but that also might just be an effect. It might become more obvious if you post the OtC drill.

 

[semisensei]

I'll post some OTC drill today and play around with some more left hip depth and internal rotation.
Thanks y'all! Really appreciate your continual feedback (and patience as I fumble through it all!)

 

[semisensei]

Got out after work and drilled for about an hour with putters and mids. Started with the OTC drill and some pendulum (Feldberg) throws.
At first, my focus was on "completing the backswing" and getting as coiled into the left hip as I could, with my shoulders at the maximum turn my flexibility would allow comfortably.
Here's the drill vid, as promised:

https://youtu.be/e7Dx4oXyo1g

However, I started to see how my extended left leg was causing issues- while it felt like I was loading it more I order to get a deeper coil, I think it was pushing me over the top. While a straight trail leg might be good for the golf backswing, maybe not so much for DG.

Then I started doing easy Feldberg swings to try and get a better feel for planting from behind in rhythm. And I noticed the same issue of straightening my left leg in the backswing, which also caused a sort of upward bounce off my left foot. So I tried playing with allowing my CoG to drop a bit in the x-step as opposed to bounce, and sitting into the left hip more, and I think I felt something click. It felt real nice and smooth and I could feel how my plant leg could really press into the ground with a more connected feeling, rather than a crash into the can crush.

I only had time to capture a few of these throws before I had to go:

https://youtu.be/yP0x-JAVjac

I wish I had more time to get reps with the new feeling and to capture the side angle.

Is this on the right track in terms of sitting into the left hip more in the backswing?

 

[sidewinder22]

Note how our legs are kind of backwards, your front leg is more bent than your rear leg, while my rear leg is more bent than front leg getting ready to land with everything more stacked inline to front leg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=1m14s

 

[semisensei]

Note how our legs are kind of backwards, your front leg is more bent than your rear leg, while my rear leg is more bent than front leg getting ready to land with everything more stacked inline to front leg.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=1m14s

Yes this is what I am trying to figure out how to correct. I think I'm straightening my left leg as a part of my concept of getting the hips back in the backswing, like a golf swing.


Does the Ride the Bull apply here in the sense that right before the plant, my spine should be angled back away from target? And currently, my "backwards" legs are causing my spine to actually angle toward the target going into the plant?

 

[semisensei]

The tip about my leg extension being "backwards" has really helped. My x-step, I realize, has been very wonky - I've been sort of heaving myself up/forward on my right leg, making the Ride the Bull more difficult.

This session, I tried more of a shuffle step feeling, with a more active push off the left leg going into the X - like the left leg added horizontal energy and the right created the vertical potential energy. It feels more natural to have that body pendulum / Ride the Bill feeling - like a skier (which I am) transitioning between a right turn and a left turn (before, it was like I was skiing only on the right leg!)
I think this has also helped me be less early in the backswing - but I'm still working on that. The shuffle step feel made the "sitting/coiling into the back leg" feel more natural. Had some pretty good rips too! The first is a 9 speed out to 420', the second turned and burned.

https://youtu.be/jB64dyyvGi8

I'm thinking the thing I need to work on is timing the backswing still- looks like I'm leaving it a little behind me still, going into the stride. Would y'all agree? Any other ideas are definitely welcome! Thanks y'all

 

[Brychanus]

You've still got a bit more of a "side shuffle hop" than an X going on there, but the move off the rear leg looks way more relaxed and like you're getting better "seated" to me. The leg does work but you want that nice efficient drop in good posture. Continuing to tinker with RtB to get the tilt and coil working together more efficiently in tilted axis might help. Curious if SW would focus you there or more explicitly work on something else.

For instance, I've had some success focusing on bringing that rear leg a bit more East and relearning the balance to make it more of an X than side shuffle hop - still working on that also in Kick the Can move.