Disc Pivot and the Snap

[Sard0nyx]

I saw a new video recently about disc pivot from Bradley Walker as I've been thinking about form and rebuilding my own.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfzo_wMCwvo&ab_channel=Spin&ThrowDiscGolf

This video seems contradictory to Blake T's teaching from back in the day.

The Myth of Disc Pivot Thread
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24903

I understand what Bradley Walker is talking about though. Loosely pivoting the disc can greatly accelerate it, but it makes it much less controllable since it seems to be micro-rounding at the wrist instead of with the arm. Maybe people here have thoughts about this.

I'm trying to figure out and generate snap, but it seems that not many people have talked about it recently. I've read through a lot of the old DGR threads about it, but it seems that Blake T's incomplete technique was never completed. Anyone have any thoughts on how to generate snap? Or is it just a function of getting your lower body in the right positions? Are you supposed to activate your arm when the disc reaches the power pocket? I have trouble consciously trying to snap the disc because it feels like the swing is too fast to even think about it. How have you all been able to generate snap or the hit? It seems to be a difficult concept to grasp and explain/teach.

 

[MattS]

I have tremendous respect for Bradley Walker's classic content. His "Closed Shoulder Drill" video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LffYBb1vQjQ ) fixed so many misunderstandings for me and still holds up to this day. However, this video feels like hyperbolic fluff.

It's important to realize that Blake wasn't saying that disc pivot doesn't happen. He was saying that disc pivot isn't something to focus on actively accomplishing. It comes around automatically, and trying to actively promote it by loosening your grip is counter-productive.

Ultimately, this video on disc pivot doesn't actually tell you to do anything. In fact, Bradley explicitly mentions that he is not activating the pivot with his wrist. He's just "swinging" the disc (with little detail provided for how that's done precisely). The one specific idea here is that just two fingers + thumb are required for full power. However, the two players he explicitly mentions (Drew Gibson and Paul McBeth) both basically use power grips (Drew doesn't use his pinky, but it's basically a power grip). So, once you throw out the grip, the content of the video basically boils down to making sure the disc swings out at the end of your throw (with no real emphasis on how to make that happen).

Blake actually put has a good paragraph on 2 vs 4 finger throws in the thread you linked

Explain people that throw with a two finger grip

Thank you for explaining disc pivot, Jero, it makes things easier on me to address the meat of this.

two-finger backhand grips yield a much greater amount of tendon flexibility. they are also much weaker. the strength aspect is a double edged sword: people who throw two-finger must have better timing to throw successfully and so most people who throw two-finger are better able to manipulate the disc's weight shift naturally (than people who throw with 4) and get the "edge around."
the downside: two-finger grips have much lower strength potential.

with that in mind, while a higher percentage of two finger grippers may throw 350'+, it is more difficult to throw 450'+. i will often train people to throw with two fingers (to develop shifting the disc's weight) and then have them add four and tell them to "do the same thing you did with two." in most cases this yields an increase of 30-50'.

basically: a two-finger grip makes it easier to feel when the disc's edge should come around. a two-finger grip makes it harder to transfer maximum power when you bring the disc's edge around.

My thought is that a two-finger throw provides excellent negative-feedback. When your timing is wrong, you get awful early releases. This is super useful for subconciously preventing yourself from muscling a throw. Your brain is wired to limit force production if it senses that you won't be able to hold onto something (deadlifters with straps are often able to fully lift to lockout weights that they can't even budge without straps, because the body senses that they couldn't hold onto it). In a disc throw, not applying maximum force to the disc can be beneficial, because the most important thing is keeping everything in sync to maximize the whipping sequence at the hit.

 

[DiscFifty]

Bradley Walker "I have been throwing lots of flippy discs since going to swinging full time."

I've been in his group for over a year, and he continues to have a hard time explaining what's in his head. The recent change to "swinging a disc only" has left alot of people in that group scratching their head for better examples.

 

[RandyC]

Two fingers is fine but I personally think that this disc pivot encourages you to flick the hammer head ahead of the handle too early. Which usually results in a noseup throw and the distance is limited, even if it feels effortless. If you watch Paul here, you can see how his wrist "breaks" as the handle is leading. I dont think his wrist would never break if he was trying to pivot the disc or flick the head out like Bradley is teaching. https://youtu.be/RkPwHUVInes?t=53

The part where pauls wrist breaks and the disc is getting into the pocket that would be the same point where Bradley is already swinging the hammer head out.

 

[sidewinder22]

Bradley's new stuff makes my head hurt. I don't understand half of what he says and seems to contradict himself often, and he blocked me after I said he was confusing and I was trying to get clarification on something - the sign of great coach /sarcasm. He seems to really focus on the byproducts of good form, rather than the intention. He claimed to invent the term "disc pivot" when Dave Dunipace was clearly using that term way before going back to early 1980s or late 70s. Bradley seems to like to redefine common terms like calling the 1 finger grip a 2 finger grip in that vid. Is the "knee drop the engine" or is it the "disc pivot" now? He says there is "no brace" in backhand and no other sports use the term "brace", but he says forehand has one for whatever reason, and somehow you "stop your spine" and "throw your head back" in backhand without bracing. IMO "stopping your spine" or "throwing your head back" are terrible swing thoughts. I could keep going, but I digress.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ocMJecgW2w#t=1m23s

Pretty much everything Blake has said is true. Blake also got a lot of his stuff from Dave Dunipace. I think the Incomplete Secret Technique was incomplete because it didn't involve the body.

Here's my grip vid, link starts with the hammer, and then around 6m40s I do Blake's Switch Back Drill w/ the real 2 finger grip, as well in the Swing Drills vid below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpyaFqgyZbU#t=3m

Here's Dave Dunipace talking about the 2 things that you need that don't go together intuitively.
1. Disc Pivot Loosely.
2. Rip Out Tightly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMjxqe7GVIQ&t=120s

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/distancesecrets.shtml
Tendon Bounce From the Wrist and Fingers

There is definitely a trick to getting maximum distance with seemingly little effort, and it's not "smoothness". The trick is to use a "tendon bounce" which springs the disc off of the wrist and fingers. To do this you use your fingers and wrist as springs rather than hinges. With a tendon bounce you must force as much pressure as possible onto as tight a spring as possible. This spring creates a rebound force that is added to the momentum from the forward velocity of the hand. To illustrate the tendon bounce firmly hold the handle of a strong wooden spoon with your right hand while your left hand attempts to bend it back. When your left hand releases the spoon it will spring forward. This is essentially what is happening when you throw a disc. The faster you accelerate the disc forward the more the disc's mass and momentum hold your fingers and wrist back until they spring the disc forward. So it is not speed that works the spring but acceleration. Acceleration is the change in speed over time, so the greatest change in speed over the shortest time frame will produce the most force against the spring to be utilized as a bounce along with the velocity of the hand. For acceleration, the pattern is always: step, hips, shoulders, then elbow, wrist, disc pivot, fingers, shoulder pull, bang. In order to get enough force into the ejection you need maximum acceleration because force equals mass times acceleration. Most of the acceleration will come from the added elbow extension speed. This is made easier by a pre-bent elbow. Finger and thumb pressure are also critical to achieving this maximum acceleration before separation. The combination of the elbow motion, small wrist motion, and quick disc pivot is sufficient to bounce the disc out and have it rip off your fingers as long as you don't let it slip out.

Right before the hit starts the wrist will wag back slightly and then go forward slightly. This is when the part happens that's important to remember. Your wrist should not continue forward to sling the disc out; instead it should come to an abrupt, steely stop. At this point your wrist should be stiff and held motionless, so try to stiffen your fingers, wrist, and arm as much as possible at the moment of impact of the snap. It's similar to a karate chop in that there is very little wrist motion. You don't want to keep your wrist stiff throughout the whole throw, though. At the beginning of the throw you want to only have enough tension in the fingers and wrist to hold the disc in launch position. You only become tight at the hit. Notice, too, that using the tendon bounce does not mean that your arm stops just because your wrist motion stops. The arm and shoulders must continue to pull through the snap with as much force as possible as the disc is ripping out of your fingers. Pulling through the hit with your hips and shoulders generates power.

With good throws sometimes a snapping sound can be heard. The snapping sound is caused by your fingers slamming together after the disc rips out of your grip. Although the snapping sound isn't necessary, it is indicative of proper acceleration. At separation the rim of the disc forces the thumb apart from the fingers. If this is done quickly and powerfully enough then the fingers snap back against the base of the thumb with a pop. If your finger pressure is insufficient at separation then you will neither get a snap nor proper acceleration as you need to hold the disc as long as possible for maximum rotation and acceleration.

In summary, three things need to happen in quick succession: the wrist has to stop, the disc has to pivot and rip off the fingers, and you have to pull through this action with your arm and shoulder turn. On the injection side of the hit you want compressed acceleration; on the ejection side you want power. All throwers use the spring from the tendon bounce to some extent whether they are aware of it or not. My point has always been to become aware of it and use it to its fullest potential.

 

[timothy42b]

Bradley Walker "I have been throwing lots of flippy discs since going to swinging full time."

I've been in his group for over a year, and he continues to have a hard time explaining what's in his head. The recent change to "swinging a disc only" has left alot of people in that group scratching their head for better examples.

I've read that stuff too and don't understand either. Could it be similar to the old hammer pound drills, at least in concept? I did tons of those with no improvement. I have experimented a bit with the finger-thumb grip and got erratic results, occasionally effortless and long and just as often sky high nose up fails.

I think that there must be something to the disc swing idea. Someone I play with does not do any of the weightshift sequence stuff right, the stuff i work on from drills here. She rounds, throws off the back foot, doesn't brace, and upper arm flaps. however her wrist is flippy at release and she throws very near as far as me.

 

[Sard0nyx]

Pretty much everything Blake has said is true. Blake also got a lot of his stuff from Dave Dunipace. I think the Incomplete Secret Technique was incomplete because it didn't involve the body.

Here's my grip vid, link starts with the hammer, and then around 6m40s I do Blake's Switch Back Drill w/ the real 2 finger grip, as well in the Swing Drills vid below:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpyaFqgyZbU#t=3m

I've read tons of stuff and watched some of these videos multiple times. It's really hard to get it to click.

I'm finding that I understand the concepts outlined, but I'm just having trouble doing them. Mostly because the hit happens so fast. I know I have to swing loose and grip down at the hit, but the second the disc enters the power pocket, it seems like I'm already in the followthrough and the disc is gone before I can even know what's up. How do you practice the hit or know that you're doing it when it happens so fast? It's hard to think about getting my wrist to a steely stop like Dave D. says to do. Is there a way to hit the disc slowly so you can see/think/experience the effect?



Bradley Walker drew this diagram on snap that I understand in concept. It seems to align with what I've read about snap from Blake T. and others. But that disc is going so fast out of the power pocket, it feels impossible to consciously pull back on the "string".

Also, in regards to your swing video. How do you translate your low practice swings into actual shots? Do you just bend your elbow to raise the swing plane? I notice that the swings happen low, almost at the knees.

 

[Bush122]

I don't believe you can really "hit" the disc slowly. The hit is brought about by a combination of forces working together to rip the disc out of your hand. I think the best way is to take a video and see where you're holding the disc to. As far as getting the feel, 2 things have helped me.

1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b13Js1KRzYs

Do this as a warm up - I throw maybe 20-40 throws like this to start most of my field work. When I do it, I am focusing all of my attention on my hand. Every ounce of concentration I can muster is put into making sure the hand stays on the outside of the disc as I bring it in. Don't try to think about snapping your wrist at the end - it should happen automatically. If you keep a decent grip you should start to feel the rip. There are a lot of good grip threads around and one of them really helped me - somebody posted a video and said "I'm going to assume that everything I think I know about the grip is wrong" - but I cannot find it for the life of me right now.

2) Wide rail throwing like Barry Schultz/the Josh Anthon run-up drill. https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133733

Helps to get the disc out wide and stop strong arming. You won't get snap if you're strong arming. Yes, you'll look insane doing that Anthon run up, but I swear it helps.

 

[Sard0nyx]

I don't believe you can really "hit" the disc slowly. The hit is brought about by a combination of forces working together to rip the disc out of your hand. I think the best way is to take a video and see where you're holding the disc to. As far as getting the feel, 2 things have helped me.

1) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b13Js1KRzYs

Do this as a warm up - I throw maybe 20-40 throws like this to start most of my field work. When I do it, I am focusing all of my attention on my hand. Every ounce of concentration I can muster is put into making sure the hand stays on the outside of the disc as I bring it in. Don't try to think about snapping your wrist at the end - it should happen automatically. If you keep a decent grip you should start to feel the rip. There are a lot of good grip threads around and one of them really helped me - somebody posted a video and said "I'm going to assume that everything I think I know about the grip is wrong" - but I cannot find it for the life of me right now.

2) Wide rail throwing like Barry Schultz/the Josh Anthon run-up drill. https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133733

Helps to get the disc out wide and stop strong arming. You won't get snap if you're strong arming. Yes, you'll look insane doing that Anthon run up, but I swear it helps.

Loopghost is great. His videos are really good and his form is so smooth. Unfortunately, that smoothness makes it difficult to see how he's leveraging the disc. And I've even watched the video where he had the water bottle multiple times.

I wonder if the Swedish style throw is the way to practice the hit. It seems that keep the arm straight on the backswing means less moving pieces. Sidewinder seems to throw that way as well as GG, Eric Oakley, Philo.

Also maybe switching to the two-finger grip might allow me to focus on leveraging more instead of the power grip I normally use.

 

[Bush122]

Loopghost is great. His videos are really good and his form is so smooth. Unfortunately, that smoothness makes it difficult to see how he's leveraging the disc. And I've even watched the video where he had the water bottle multiple times.

I wonder if the Swedish style throw is the way to practice the hit. It seems that keep the arm straight on the backswing means less moving pieces. Sidewinder seems to throw that way as well as GG, Eric Oakley, Philo.

Also maybe switching to the two-finger grip might allow me to focus on leveraging more instead of the power grip I normally use.

If by swedish style you mean keeping the arm straight and wide as you bring it back, I agree - that's definitely helped me. I would be careful of a Feldberg style swing back though, I imagine it'd be easy to collapse your back shoulder in the backswing with that.

It's going to be hard to see anybody leverage the disc unless you go frame-by-frame because of how fast it is. Try doing that drill and just staring at your hand to make sure it stays on the outside. Don't try to go too quickly, if you keep your hand on the outside you'll start to feel some pop.

 

[oldmandiscer]

I've read tons of stuff and watched some of these videos multiple times. It's really hard to get it to click.

I'm finding that I understand the concepts outlined, but I'm just having trouble doing them. Mostly because the hit happens so fast. I know I have to swing loose and grip down at the hit, but the second the disc enters the power pocket, it seems like I'm already in the followthrough and the disc is gone before I can even know what's up. How do you practice the hit or know that you're doing it when it happens so fast? It's hard to think about getting my wrist to a steely stop like Dave D. says to do. Is there a way to hit the disc slowly so you can see/think/experience the effect?

View attachment 74028

Bradley Walker drew this diagram on snap that I understand in concept. It seems to align with what I've read about snap from Blake T. and others. But that disc is going so fast out of the power pocket, it feels impossible to consciously pull back on the "string".

Also, in regards to your swing video. How do you translate your low practice swings into actual shots? Do you just bend your elbow to raise the swing plane? I notice that the swings happen low, almost at the knees.

Just watching TV I'll sit and practice gripping between the index and thumb just little tiny snaps with a disc. Try and get it built into my "muscle memory."

The other thing I focus on (I'm generally too late if anything with my arm and snap and pull shots right) is as soon as the disc gets to the left pec is start or let the arm unwind and then snap the disc.

It's like my normal 300 foot midrange rips out like a rocket out to 330-340 when I get the timing right. I still have to consciously do it though, bad "muscle memory" and all.

 

[sidewinder22]

I've read tons of stuff and watched some of these videos multiple times. It's really hard to get it to click.

I'm finding that I understand the concepts outlined, but I'm just having trouble doing them. Mostly because the hit happens so fast. I know I have to swing loose and grip down at the hit, but the second the disc enters the power pocket, it seems like I'm already in the followthrough and the disc is gone before I can even know what's up. How do you practice the hit or know that you're doing it when it happens so fast? It's hard to think about getting my wrist to a steely stop like Dave D. says to do. Is there a way to hit the disc slowly so you can see/think/experience the effect?

View attachment 74028

Bradley Walker drew this diagram on snap that I understand in concept. It seems to align with what I've read about snap from Blake T. and others. But that disc is going so fast out of the power pocket, it feels impossible to consciously pull back on the "string".

Toss something heavy enough it slows everything down. Reciprocating Dingle Arm is slow and you should feel the disc whip big from just a little well synced movement. There is no need to twist the foot and drop the knee and spin the hips. There is no need to bend the elbow or wrist much to feel it, or even throw pretty far like Feldberg. Bending the elbow just increases your speed or acceleration and moving parts. If you want to toss something heavy efficiently then what you do need to do is have an inertia confrontation shifting your center of mass and pressure around against it changing it's acceleration to catapult or repel away from you.

I don't think about pulling the shoulder back, it's just following the hip bracing up from the foot and leveraging the swing targetward which also pushes back on you. I don't think about stopping the wrist. Focus is on pounding the hammer or disc targetward, or slashing the disc thru something on way to target.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ocMJecgW2w#t=1m23s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ak2AcA5o6-M&t=1m9s

Also, in regards to your swing video. How do you translate your low practice swings into actual shots? Do you just bend your elbow to raise the swing plane? I notice that the swings happen low, almost at the knees.

Learn to throw Comets. Change disc stability to swing or change balance to swing plane/disc stability.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KSmCjlG0wY&t=1m42s

 

[drk_evns]

For me it clicked when I stopped trying to swing through the hit and started "pounding the hammer" towards it. You immediately recognize how you can use your body to get the arm into those positions quickly, rather than attempting to recreate them with your arm muscles. There is this little gap or jump where the arm free floats into the power pocket and then re-connects to the front side and slams to the hit.

Once you do it this way you can see why KJ Nybo's follow-through just kind of stops. He uses all his energy to get to that point and has very little excess.

 

[Sard0nyx]

For me it clicked when I stopped trying to swing through the hit and started "pounding the hammer" towards it. You immediately recognize how you can use your body to get the arm into those positions quickly, rather than attempting to recreate them with your arm muscles. There is this little gap or jump where the arm free floats into the power pocket and then re-connects to the front side and slams to the hit.

Once you do it this way you can see why KJ Nybo's follow-through just kind of stops. He uses all his energy to get to that point and has very little excess.

Hmm. When I think about it as a hammer, my elbow will naturally stop near the power pocket and I can sling my lower arm in an arc towards the imaginary nail I'm trying to hammer. I also instinctively grip harder at that point when I pretend it's a hammer. Is it at that point that I accelerate my arm?

I know snap is a very hard concept. My trawling through the old DGR threads seems to indicate that the way to learn it is different for every person. I think the easiest thing to do would be to just get a feeling of the hit, so I know what I would be trying to replicate. Any ideas on how to do that?

 

[sidewinder22]

 

[seedlings]

 

[Sard0nyx]

Those videos were pretty helpful in understanding the swing through. Your GIFs are from a video I watched a while back, but I'll go back and rewatch it. How do you reconcile the smooth swing with Snap that I've been reading lots about. I can see that you're accelerating, but I've read that to generate snap requires violent movement and rapid changes in direction. I can practice swing at the teed up ball, but it won't reinforce how to fling the disc and cause it to eject out of my hand while I'm gripping on it tightly. I feel like all the swing drills I've been doing has just been making my form look nicer rather than teaching me how to leverage the disc and cause those rapid accelerations that make the disc pop out. I know it's hard to work on stuff like that indoors because you can't have the disc flying all over the place, but it's really hard for me to put those together or bridge the gap so to speak.

 

[sidewinder22]

Those videos were pretty helpful in understanding the swing through. Your GIFs are from a video I watched a while back, but I'll go back and rewatch it. How do you reconcile the smooth swing with Snap that I've been reading lots about. I can see that you're accelerating, but I've read that to generate snap requires violent movement and rapid changes in direction. I can practice swing at the teed up ball, but it won't reinforce how to fling the disc and cause it to eject out of my hand while I'm gripping on it tightly. I feel like all the swing drills I've been doing has just been making my form look nicer rather than teaching me how to leverage the disc and cause those rapid accelerations that make the disc pop out. I know it's hard to work on stuff like that indoors because you can't have the disc flying all over the place, but it's really hard for me to put those together or bridge the gap so to speak.

Smooth body motion leads to speed and violence to the disc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvsHetJkKFo&t=1m55s

 

[drk_evns]

Hmm. When I think about it as a hammer, my elbow will naturally stop near the power pocket and I can sling my lower arm in an arc towards the imaginary nail I'm trying to hammer. I also instinctively grip harder at that point when I pretend it's a hammer. Is it at that point that I accelerate my arm?

Yessir.

 

[Sard0nyx]

I noticed that he says he tries to hold onto the disc until the point where his arm is parallel to his chest (pointing straight at the target). I'm worried that if I try to do that, I might grip lock it all the way to the side. Is he just emphasizing swinging through the hit? Or will the disc release before that point?