What turn the key is missing

[Brychanus]

Every 'active' (I use dynamic vs static) cue I've tried has been more effective for nose down than static. I just tried holding max supination for the full swing and couldn't get much nose down with it. It's the dynamic supination motion that seems make the supination effective for nose down unless I just want able to maintain the supination properly or it causes me to change my normal swing motion.

Haven't tried dynamically pouring tea though.

I think you've added another set of terms here so just so I can understand:

"Dynamic" means allowing the action to unfold during the move? Or just cues that verbally imply some kind of action? Is this different than what I am trying to emphasize with "natural" action of the arm moving for force and letting the joints move the way they're meant to with other objects? I'm really not trying to be pedantic, just aiming for clarity.

"Static" means you tried to "fix" or "control" the variable in a single position anatomically? That's what it sounds like from your example, but again wanted to check.

Edit: yeah I have trouble w/ index finger at B-2 as well on wide rim, probably part of why I drifted toward B-3

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I think you've added another set of terms here so just so I can understand:

"Dynamic" means allowing the action to unfold during the move? Or just cues that verbally imply some kind of action? Is this different than what I am trying to emphasize with "natural" action of the arm moving for force and letting the joints move the way they're meant to with other objects? I'm really not trying to be pedantic, just aiming for clarity.

"Static" means you tried to "fix" or "control" the variable in a single position anatomically? That's what it sounds like from your example, but again wanted to check.

Edit: yeah I have trouble w/ index finger at B-2 as well on wide rim, probably part of why I drifted toward B-3

I'm used to the terminology from climbing.

Holding a pour the tea throughout the full swing would be static, it's unchanging / maintained.

If you were to only pour the tea suddenly at the hit, that would be a dynamic way to pour the tea.

Most people who poured the tea do it statically, whereas, turning, the key is only really done dynamically and when I tried to hold a static key turned position (max supination) it didn't give much nose down and also is uncomfortable and I had multiple early releases.

Although in Climbing, the term static doesn't literally mean being still, but it means climbing slowly with extra control without dynamic momentum movements.

A dyno in climbing is the peak dynamic move, pulling hard and fast and then jumping off your feet with 0 points of contact, lol.

This is a famous Climb that is basically just a single complex multi move dyno. You think flight numbers are bad? Imagine trying to rate the difficulty of a Climb that is a single move versus one that is 20 in a row using the same scale.

 

[Brychanus]

It's common terminology in Climbing.

Holding a pour the tea throughout the full swing would be static, it's unchanging / maintained.

If you were to only pour the tea suddenly at the hit, that would be dynamic.

Although in Climbing, the term static doesn't literally mean being still, but it means climbing slowly with extra control without dynamic momentum movements.

A dyno in climbing is the peak dynamic move, pulling hard and fast and then jumping off your feet with 0 points of contact, lol.

This is a famous Climb that is basically just a single complex multi move dyno. You think flight numbers are bad? Imagine trying to rate the difficulty of a Climb that is a single move versus one that is 20 in a row using the same scale.

Nice, thanks. Seems like another world of language. I did some climbing in college - just enough to attempt a few dynos without dying but nowhere near some of the freaking Spidermen out there. My grip was probably much stronger then lol. My friend started just recently so I'll ask him if he has attempted any yet ;-) I have this hunch he'll enjoy what it does for his grip in DG.

I think one of the things I think Rowing and I had in common was that we responded especially well to the "holistic" "arm/disc unit" approach to the role of the arm. I still remember the single most significant thing in my arm action was when I accidentally happened upon a full kinetic hit through a hammer that punched a hole in my punching bag at no effort whatsoever. Anything that I've done to a disc like that is "better," and anything less like it is "worse" in my form & its output.

On the other end of it you have what you are distinguishing as the "static/dynamic" cues. Even when I've started people out with the holistic approach you still need to get in there and isolate/tweak certain things when it's not working - e.g. my arm used to rotate in the completely opposite pattern you want so I have needed at times to override that old muscle memory. Anyway, curious as always how your exploring will go.

Edit: you've probably also encountered the idea that a "tendon bounce" or springy effect is part of the leverage transfer.

 

[Nick Carroll]

A lot of this is above my pay grade but the more time I spent playing with the "turn the key" cue the less important it's been, and I've lost some of my excitement for it - though I was able to get some results with it quickly in my testing. I use the more "static" approach of just setting the angle, and then throwing. In my testing any attempt to actively do it in the swing, I lose more control of the disc. I think of it now as more icing on the cake - but you have to make the cake right before you even bother putting icing on it.

I also think Sheep does a great job in his video adding a lot of context that goes beyond mere wrist position, and I think we've lost a bit of that in the last few years, and it's just being rediscovered again. I know the pour the tea/coffee cue was going around as a fix for nose angle, but I think that's borne out to be practically unimportant - outside of using it to get the disc at the right angle in the first place, for other elements to work properly. The backhand throw has so many moving parts that it's easy for any one thing to throw off everything.

 

[RowingBoats]

Every 'active' (I use dynamic vs static) cue I've tried has been more effective for nose down than static. I just tried holding max supination for the full swing and couldn't get much nose down with it. It's the dynamic supination motion that seems make the supination effective for nose down unless I just want able to maintain the supination properly or it causes me to change my normal swing motion.

Haven't tried dynamically pouring tea though.

I think there is a fair chance that people are talking past each other slightly on this topic.

When I say something like an "active" cue, I mean things like 'flipping the disc'. An actual movement that you are trying to inflict on the disc.

I think we all need to discuss whether there even is a 'static' nose down method using this terminology. There is no way to unfold your wrist in a 'static' way. You cannot just 'hold the pour' stiffly and get good results. Your wrist has to unfold on plane and this movement in itself is what I would call dynamic. It is an awkward thing to force your wrist to behave with, I just do not personally feel that supination is required for at least MAJOR progress away from nose-up nonsense.

To me, turning the key implies an actual effort to supinate, not simply unfold on plane.

I can see why some of these cues probably feel like we are doing something different, but maybe it is just the extent of mental cue required to force a relatively awkward thing to happen that helps certain people.

Weird stuff lol.

/ Also funny that you climb, I was an obsessive boulderer myself for many years Also a drummer, and I genuinely believe both of those things contribute heavily to some of my disc golf form in very bizarre ways.

 

[RowingBoats]

when I tried to hold a static key turned position (max supination)

This is another part of the discussion that has been bugging me lately (not you in particular just in general).

To me none of the cues need to be interpreted as having to 'max' out the range of motion being described. Everyone's body is going to be different, everyone's grip will require a different offset from the wrist. Id wager almost no one actually needs to 'max' out these things for good results, and there are ways that doing so will actually cause nose-up throws.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

This is another part of the discussion that has been bugging me lately (not you in particular just in general).

To me none of the cues need to be interpreted as having to 'max' out the range of motion being described. Everyone's body is going to be different, everyone's grip will require a different offset from the wrist. Id wager almost no one actually needs to 'max' out these things for good results, and there are ways that doing so will actually cause nose-up throws.

Yes but when testing things that may potentially have small impacts, it makes it easier to see and find the differences if you compare something closer to an extreme.

The difference in how much supination I have left from my normal amount if I'm not turning the key and maintaining supination is pretty small. And logically, if turning the key aggressively (supinating) is turning out to be so effective so quickly for getting the nose down for me, my assumption was simply holding and ending with more supination would also get the nose down.

Most likely I think what happens is the way the disc is tilted when you are already in full or close to full supination as you approach the hit, the air drag during acceleration pushes you out of supination before the hit, which is why you need to do it dynamically to overcome the opposing forces more easily for it to be effective.

 

[Sheep]

Everyone is talking about how important this is but no one is giving a simple description of the disc's alignment in the hand / palm for some reason.

It sounds more like the issue is more of you not wanting to understand the material vs listening to the material. All the questions you've asked are in the video.

A lot of the rest of the things you're saying are .. frankly made up rubbish based off a few pieces of good information and to much time chasing numbers with a tech disc and not enough experience.

Half of this conversation I cannot even follow much beyond this reply point as it makes absolutely 0 sense. Nor do I wish to bother trying to find my decoder ring and decipher the cryptic messages you're making.

All I'm really seeing is trying to overcomplicate the subject at hand and not actually put any understanding into it because the concepts are far to simple. Because it's not complicated enough, it simply cant be correct.

I showed how to find an aligned grip in the video. And yes, extending or dropping the pinky in when your grip is correct is really all it takes to push the nose down more. If you're finding struggles with that, perhaps your grip sucks.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Half of this conversation I cannot even follow much beyond this reply point as it makes absolutely 0 sense.

When people get more specific and try to pin details down you have a hard time making sense of it because your style is erratic ranting with a lot of vague points, but some good advice mixed in.

 

[RowingBoats]

When people get more specific and try to pin details down you have a hard time making sense of it because your style is erratic ranting with a lot of vague points, but some good advice mixed in.

In my opinion, all of these active cues are the way people obfuscate specificity. Looking at wtf you are trying to do to the disc, with your preferred grip, and going that route to ensure that your swing will result in nose down flight is how you get specific actual knowledge.

I have a feeling that most people who require these more extreme cues are almost all compensating for not actually getting into a legit brace loaded completely on the front leg.

I feel that people who have done the work on that front will resonate strongly with how Sheep describes controlling nose angle.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

In my opinion, all of these active cues are the way people obfuscate specificity. Looking at wtf you are trying to do to the disc, with your preferred grip, and going that route to ensure that your swing will result in nose down flight is how you get specific actual knowledge.

I have a feeling that most people who require these more extreme cues are almost all compensating for not actually getting into a legit brace loaded completely on the front leg.

I feel that people who have done the work on that front will resonate strongly with how Sheep describes controlling nose angle.

I wasn't thinking about cues as much there, but talking about some shit about the pinky that may or may not actually change the orientation of the disc in the hand, because I can remove my pinky entirely in the disk does not change it's angle because the disk is secured in the groove of my palm.

And lot of people just vaguely say something about how to grip the disc ("it needs to be aligned GOOD to work with the body"), and don't actually clearly specify how to align it through the fingers and palm. When people do get specific, it's usually something like put the disc between the middle and index finger and down the center groove of the bottom of the palm--this is a pretty good example of a clear explanation that increases the chance of being able to accurately follow it. Even with differences in the hand, this grip alignment is very common and widely useful so it makes sense to start there and stick with it for a while, and for good players who diverge from that alignment, they usually don't diverge a huge amount, and where they diverge can also be clearly described by giving two specific points and a line between them to denote how the rim is aligned in the hand.

The pinky adjustment is a proxy for an underlying alignment within the hand but it's a bad proxy because it may or may not adjust the disc's alignment based on how securely you are maintaining the alignment with the palm and other fingers.

For some reason, in disc golf, it's rare to have a clear explanation of grip alignments like you can have in something like tennis, hence why I shared that picture of my hand as an easy way to cut through a bunch of ambiguity if people actually want to be on the same page.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

For some reason, in disc golf, it's rare to have a clear explanation of grip alignments like you can have in something like tennis, hence why I shared that picture of my hand as an easy way to cut through a bunch of ambiguity if people actually want to be on the same page.

I can't wait for this to be a thing. I need it

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I can't wait for this to be a thing. I need it

Idk if you saw my pic earlier in the thread. May not be the best but it's at least something that can add clarity.

UPDATE: updated the grip alignment diagram to include more options so these labels are outdated:
Tech disc test driven development

For example:

I unfortunately changed my stance from standstill to one-leg standstill between these tests though, need to keep that more constant next time.

Starting at "A" I've heard said to be bad and nose up, it usually results in the base index finger knuckle being under the rim which is something else I've heard, to put that knuckle above the rim.

But how bad is it? Based on my tests not THAT bad, basically only 1 degree. So switching from a disc alignment grip along A-2 to B-2 probably isn't going to do much for someone air bouncing, but it's such a small and pretty easy change so it's easily worth it imo. But for example, I can still easily throw nose down with an A-2 grip alignment with turning the key.

However, B-3 will create a diagonal angle more similar to A-2 than to B-2, so, it makes me suspicious that it could be more nose up as well. Thankfully I have a tech disc and can check when I feel like it.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

Idk if you saw my pic earlier in the thread. May not be the best but it's at least something that can add clarity.

For example:
View attachment 336413
I unfortunately changed my stance from standstill to one-leg standstill between these tests though, need to keep that more constant next time.

Starting at "A" I've heard said to be bad and nose up, it usually results in the base index finger knuckle being under the rim which is something else I've heard, to put that knuckle above the rim.

But how bad is it? Based on my tests not THAT bad, basically only 1 degree. So switching from a disc alignment grip along A-2 to B-2 probably isn't going to do much for someone air bouncing, but it's such a small and pretty easy change so it's easily worth it imo. But for example, I can still easily throw nose down with an A-2 grip alignment with turning the key.

However, B-3 will create a diagonal angle more similar to A-2 than to B-2, so, it makes me suspicious that it could be more nose up as well. Thankfully I have a tech disc and can check when I feel like it.

Every time I've seen Paul at the field in person I swear he's like A3 lol. I need to mess around with alternate grips more

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Every time I've seen Paul at the field in person I swear he's like A3 lol. I need to mess around with alternate grips more

Interesting! It does give the index finger more reach to start at "A" which feels better on wide rims. If my hands were smaller my index finger wouldn't be able to reach enough on 12 speeds.

It would be sick if there was like a player profile site that included a lot of info on stuff like this, like grip preferences, etc. Like in pro gaming there are sites that document all the settings the different pros use, mouse sensitivity, video resolution, etc. It's easier in gaming though b/c they can just share a config file or open their settings page on stream and people crowd source the data.

 

[Brychanus]

I'm curious how hand size and shape etc. relates to grips in general. Maybe a fun side project. Do huge hands tend give you closer to A slot? Does it depend on the action into and out of the pocket?

Paul has enormous hands-
7:53 here

More inspiration-

Hand variability & taxonomy:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0169[COLOR=var(--text)]814119301416

Human grip types by function:

https://is.mpg.de/uploads_file/attachment/attachment/256/grasp_taxonomy.pdf

I would like to know more about grip tinkering across players:

 

[Sheep]

When people get more specific and try to pin details down you have a hard time making sense of it because your style is erratic ranting with a lot of vague points, but some good advice mixed in.

Right.
You're the guy who couldn't figure out the content and asked the questions that were in the video. And .. somehow I'm the guy who can't understand what you're talking about now????....

You understand I'm meeting your attitude with the same attitude right? Okay good. Might wanna check yourself.

----

Now were talking about some grip stuff, which is cool. Not really off topic, but were broad brushing some stuff here and then ignoring the whole point of the video I posted which is people addressing things without addressing the rest.

So, were talking about 10% of the equation here and more concerned with disc placement in the hand vs all the correlations to swing and body mechanics per person.

These things are unique to everyone and you're over complicating all of it with out any real tangible information other than what your tech disc gives you. Which is great for you, but has nothing to do with everyone else.

Everyone needs to find "Their" grip for them. Which has been the main cause of nose issues in teaching for years, because we teach things like you're promoting now with "oh you need to put the discs on these lines on my hand."

like... that's dumb. its absolutely dumb. which is why I showed in the video a really really easy way for you to figure your grip out. I meant to explain how I figured that out, but that video was long and its a lot to talk about. But it's actually from Scott Stokley. Just.. The way he teaches you to do it is absolutely stupid and has almost 0 explanation. its just "do this" and there you go, you know what nose down feels like. and that's... really dumb.

Anyways whatever.
I could talk myself blue in the face about this topic I've literally been working on for 3+ years... It's lost on you Neil, cause.. you got tech disc. so ... expert on everything now.
good god.
It's like seeing the literal manifestation of the dunning kruger effect.

Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Seriously read it. This is why coaching in disc golf makes me so angry and brash.
Brychanus talks with a lot of humility because he knows what he doesn't know. Because he understands the concept.
I speak with conviction on topics I've researched heavily and have brought myself to places of questions and understanding.
People generally dont do well with my confident speaking... But when you teach and talk to people in public in person, you have to speak with confidence. Not arrogance. And since its words on a screen, people spend more time trying to figure out how they can be offended by my strong words, vs actually understanding if i'm trying to be rude.
At this point I'm trying to be rude. Cause your goal when speaking to me is to show me how big your e-penis is, not to actually have a discussion and ask questions or gain understanding.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

Right.
You're the guy who couldn't figure out the content and asked the questions that were in the video. And .. somehow I'm the guy who can't understand what you're talking about now????....

You understand I'm meeting your attitude with the same attitude right? Okay good. Might wanna check yourself.

----

Now were talking about some grip stuff, which is cool. Not really off topic, but were broad brushing some stuff here and then ignoring the whole point of the video I posted which is people addressing things without addressing the rest.

So, were talking about 10% of the equation here and more concerned with disc placement in the hand vs all the correlations to swing and body mechanics per person.

These things are unique to everyone and you're over complicating all of it with out any real tangible information other than what your tech disc gives you. Which is great for you, but has nothing to do with everyone else.

Everyone needs to find "Their" grip for them. Which has been the main cause of nose issues in teaching for years, because we teach things like you're promoting now with "oh you need to put the discs on these lines on my hand."

like... that's dumb. its absolutely dumb. which is why I showed in the video a really really easy way for you to figure your grip out. I meant to explain how I figured that out, but that video was long and its a lot to talk about. But it's actually from Scott Stokley. Just.. The way he teaches you to do it is absolutely stupid and has almost 0 explanation. its just "do this" and there you go, you know what nose down feels like. and that's... really dumb.

Anyways whatever.
I could talk myself blue in the face about this topic I've literally been working on for 3+ years... It's lost on you Neil, cause.. you got tech disc. so ... expert on everything now.
good god.
It's like seeing the literal manifestation of the dunning kruger effect.

Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Seriously read it. This is why coaching in disc golf makes me so angry and brash.
Brychanus talks with a lot of humility because he knows what he doesn't know. Because he understands the concept.
I speak with conviction on topics I've researched heavily and have brought myself to places of questions and understanding.
People generally dont do well with my confident speaking... But when you teach and talk to people in public in person, you have to speak with confidence. Not arrogance. And since its words on a screen, people spend more time trying to figure out how they can be offended by my strong words, vs actually understanding if i'm trying to be rude.
At this point I'm trying to be rude. Cause your goal when speaking to me is to show me how big your e-penis is, not to actually have a discussion and ask questions or gain understanding.

The most ironic thing is that the Dunning Kruger Effect is talking about you.

Neil brings in legitimate evidence from a different source but since you know a little something about one tiny area of grip you think you see the whole iceberg.

Brychanus, who you repeatedly admit is more knowledgeable than you, is not even as certain in his knowledge of the topic and is still learning.

You'd do a great deal better to follow in his footsteps in practice as much as knowledge.

 

[Brychanus]

FWIW I welcome the fresh energy and isolationist approach to testing variables in general. Whether doing it with a disc, hammer, or TechDisc, I would hope some converging principles emerge, and others may vary. There will also be individual variability worth noticing in each of the above. Those appear to be themes in this thread and elsewhere.

In my own case Sheep has me pinpointed: I'm usually doing my best to talk along the lines of what I think I "know" while being open to all sources of input and all bases of disagreement. Sometimes I'm being a little conservative, others a little more risky. I see no problem and only benefits in being civil in discussing them, including and especially when disagreements arise. People disagreeing privately in their echo chambers and either ignoring or yelling at each other in public is a big part of our problems these days, disc golf or otherwise.

TechDisc: "reverse engineering" risk is really just when you "overfit" to the data and get your motion stuck in ruts/uncanny attractors. It happens. "Forward engineering" risk is when your theory is somewhat or a lot wrong and needs to be updated to account for data. This also happens.

Source of data, quality of experiments, nature of research subjects, minor or major differences in the tools all matter in the big picture.

In my day job I would not ignore new tools because I would be immediately behind if I did. I would also not forget everything I thought we knew from 150 years of Neuroscience while using the new tool - that attitude has gotten some of us into trouble as the marketplace of tools and industry jobs has exploded.

Bayes inference comes to mind: it's helpful to have priors and update them with new data.

 

[BenjiHeywood]

Ah, the reverend Bayes. I did a phd on that stuff without ever completely understanding it lol.

Regarding hands, I've literally never met anyone with longer hands/fingers than me (anyone for Thumb War?) and i always throw with an A grip of some sort.