What turn the key is missing

[geebob]

False claims you have made about me without proof:
-I have no interest in learning from and communicating with other coaches
-My coaching is a cash grab (don't try to backtrack and remove the negative connotation)
-I am an unskilled/unknowledgeable coach. Usually I would not defend myself in this manner because I think a good coach is one that is recognized by others and not by himself but I'll make an exception this time and provide proof to the contrary. Simply tell me what evidence would be sufficient for you and I'm confident I can supply it.

Perhaps it would provide more clarity if you'd like to offer some information about

• coaches that you regularly work with
• your income from coaching before and after starting to push YT content
• professional players that you coach

I have viewed a number of your videos and found some of them to be helpful as I try to learn at an age where learning can be a difficult process. I am concerned about the "turn the key" video as it encourages an arm motion that I fear could cause injury if not learned correctly and implemented gradually.

Problems can only be suppressed and kept private for so long especially when there is already a big public side to it before the pressure has to be released. Newcomers who get a load of sheep frustration dumped on their head repeatedly should know it's not just them.

As someone who has only recently started working on improving his game, I've found Sheep's advice to be helpful and his comments worthy of consideration. His suggestion of the Comet and ultimate discs as workout tools have really helped me iron out some of the hitches in my throw.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Perhaps it would provide more clarity if you'd like to offer some information about

• coaches that you regularly work with
• your income from coaching before and after starting to push YT content
• professional players that you coach

I have viewed a number of your videos and found some of them to be helpful as I try to learn at an age where learning can be a difficult process. I am concerned about the "turn the key" video as it encourages an arm motion that I fear could cause injury if not learned correctly and implemented gradually.



As someone who has only recently started working on improving his game, I've found Sheep's advice to be helpful and his comments worthy of consideration. His suggestion of the Comet and ultimate discs as workout tools have really helped me iron out some of the hitches in my throw.

I've multiple times said sheep often has good advice, it just often comes with a bunch of baggage if you push back on anything at all.

In OT's 'you have to arm it' video he states that it was talking with coach Chris T that influenced him to try that and he saw benefits from it and had many students benefit from it. He did a long interview of SW22, seems like he's knows / has talked to brychanus a decent bit as well from what he's said about brychanus here.

Why does how much money he made after YT matter? Whether it's millions or thousands it doesn't tell you how much he cares about helping students. He already stated his patreon income is publicly visible on the site (it can be hidden by choice) so that other potential good coaches will be incentivized to try to coach more seeing that you can turn it into a job.

 

[geebob]

Why does how much money he made after YT matter?

My question was... "your income from coaching before and after starting to push YT content"

In reply to this:

-My coaching is a cash grab (don't try to backtrack and remove the negative connotation)

So, if Josh's income has remained steady, it would directly refute the accusation of a "cash grab."

 

[RowingBoats]

I like the graphic, nice job. But what confuses me is that straight line. An infinite number of planes can fit on a straight line - or if the edge of the disc is viewed as a straight line a somewhat less than infinite but still large hand angles will align.

Rear view video of pros often look (to me) like the disc plane is well below the forearm bone plane.

Hmm, I think most discs will align somewhere in the pinky side of the forearm, but not truly below it. I have experimented with the deep plate grips to get closer to where you are describing (I think), but I always switch back lol.

Not arguing with ya, I will look more closely to see how common that is! From my experience you can throw lots of different grips well, you just have to understand how you are going to manipulate your preferred one.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

My question was... "your income from coaching before and after starting to push YT content"

In reply to this:


So, if Josh's income has remained steady, it would directly refute the accusation of a "cash grab."

I don't think so. You can still be attempting a cash grab without being successful. And if the income rose it's not evidence that a cash grab was the intention at all. So it's focusing on the wrong details imo. All that matters is if the coach is effective at helping people which is can be looked at separately more easily.

 

[Nick Carroll]

I think whether or not there's a "cash grab" is irrelevant, personally. People do a lot of things for profit. Some people do things for a lot of profit. That's basically irrelevant unless there's a deliberate avoidance of putting out a good product or service. I think it's weird to assert wrongdoing simply over financial motives. I've seen no evidence Josh is trying to do wrong, even if I somehow disagree with some form advice he puts out, etc.

I've only ever had a problem with his "arm the disc" video, but I think he meant well with it. I think that's bad general advice and I'm not even a fan of that term for a cue for any individual, but I do agree with Josh's belief that you use whatever cues will work. I just think that, since cues are individualized, they can often be wrong for large groups. See: "start the lawnmower" or "pull the disc." And even a cue like "turn the key" can be wrong to use if there are other, larger issues at play. I'm a believer in it, personally, but it's icing on a cake - and the cake has to be made well before bothering with it.

 

[Brychanus]

I've only ever had a problem with his "arm the disc" video, but I think he meant well with it. I think that's bad general advice and I'm not even a fan of that term for a cue for any individual, but I do agree with Josh's belief that you use whatever cues will work. I just think that, since cues are individualized, they can often be wrong for large groups. See: "start the lawnmower" or "pull the disc." And even a cue like "turn the key" can be wrong to use if there are other, larger issues at play. I'm a believer in it, personally, but it's icing on a cake - and the cake has to be made well before bothering with it.

Yeah. One of the problems in coaching and in learning is knowing this, and how to navigate it.

No matter how a given thing is said, movement is just a hard thing to put into words at some level, and no two brains equipped with language will say it exactly the same way.

 

[geebob]

I don't think so. You can still be attempting a cash grab without being successful. And if the income rose it's not evidence that a cash grab was the intention at all. So it's focusing on the wrong details imo. All that matters is if the coach is effective at helping people which is can be looked at separately more easily.

You misunderstand me. I'm not hoping to prove Josh is doing a "cash grab" by showing that he's making a pile of money. I'm suggesting ways in which he could refute the charge by providing some data. Player improvement data would be useful in showing that he was a good coach, while providing information on his "coaching tree" would help refute the idea that he doesn't work with other coaches. Disproving it being a "cash grab" could involve showing a flat income, documenting a history of working with players gratis, or providing some other evidence of his honorable motives.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

You misunderstand me. I'm not hoping to prove Josh is doing a "cash grab" by showing that he's making a pile of money. I'm suggesting ways in which he could refute the charge by providing some data. Player improvement data would be useful in showing that he was a good coach, while providing information on his "coaching tree" would help refute the idea that he doesn't work with other coaches. Disproving it being a "cash grab" could involve showing a flat income, documenting a history of working with players gratis, or providing some other evidence of his honorable motives.

Sorry. I stepped away from the thread. I'm not shy about these questions but created the AMA thread so people could ask them there.

Ideally the questions you are asking should have been posed by Sheep before his allegations and the whole conversation would have been avoided altogether.

Perhaps it would provide more clarity if you'd like to offer some information about

• coaches that you regularly work with
• your income from coaching before and after starting to push YT content
• professional players that you coach

Regarding coaches I have had open communication with: Seabas22, AceIt/Brychanus, Jaani, Slingshot, Brian Earhart, Chris Taylor, Loopghost, Joonas, Robbie C, Trebuchet, Clint/Blitz, DiscMD, Danny Lindahl, Pete Ulibarri, and Holyn Handley just off the top of my head.

Regarding income: I'm unsure of the phrasing and relevance of my income to whether or not this is a "cash grab" for me. A cash grab has the sole intent of making profit. The intent being more pertinent than the amount. My sole intention is not to make as much money as I possibly can. I would not be in coaching if that were the case rather I would have built out the back end of my buddies real estate business and taken commission per house sold plus salary.

I will answer your question regarding my income but as others have stated I don't think it will definitively prove anything other than the fact that I am not currently making a lot of money.

When OT started I was a new Director of Tennis at a country club. I was paid salary plus program profits. My take home was about $4,000-5,000 monthly. When I switched from Director to OT full time my monthly income from Overthrow was $2,000 a month and I was dipping into savings to feed my family of 4. A couple months after that my savings were drying up and Mikey and I both increased our take home pay to $2,500 monthly. A year and my third child later we increased our monthly take home pay to $3,000 a month. This is where we are currently and I take care of my family of 5 on this income.

Our total salary is $9,000/mo
-$3,000 to Mikey
-$3,000 to myself
-$1,000 to Dakota as part time employee as shopkeeper.

We also rent an office space for $1,250 a month. This is where I teach, Mikey edits, and our inventory is kept.

I believe those are the numbers you're looking for, but again, my intent doesn't change even if my take home goes to $20,000/month. I do intend on making more money than I'm currently making at some point. I have, against recommendation of some, kept my rate at $100/hr despite having the demand to justify an increase.

Regarding professional players I coach: this one also doesn't make sense to me as a litmus test. Does a good coach only coach players on the pro tour? If they don't have students of that caliber is there less merit?

Nevertheless people that I worked with during this previous offseason were: Evan Smith, Andrew Marwede, and Justin Rosak (less so than the other two).


^^^ this was just a screenshot I had handy. They didn't play as well last tournament.


I also work with a couple "lower" level pros.


Happy to answer any remaining questions on my own thread.

 

[geebob]

Sorry. I stepped away from the thread. I'm not shy about these questions but created the AMA thread so people could ask them there.

Thanks Josh, that provides some helpful perspective and, for me, puts the matter to rest. I hope that is true for others as well.

I will answer your question regarding my income but as others have stated I don't think it will definitively prove anything other than the fact that I am not currently making a lot of money.

I expected that it was the case. I believe a lot of people involved in the sport think that people are getting rich off the sport, but at least from my experience I haven't seen it.

Regarding professional players I coach: this one also doesn't make sense to me as a litmus test. Does a good coach only coach players on the pro tour? If they don't have students of that caliber is there less merit?

Nevertheless people that I worked with during this previous offseason were: Evan Smith, Andrew Marwede, and Justin Rosak (less so than the other two).

Two reasons for asking specifically about professional players. The first, quite simply, is that professional players do not have an expectation of privacy. If I'd asked for your client list, my guess is that you would have told me (quite rightly) to get stuffed. Likewise, I would be upset if the coaches I've worked with posted my name in a public forum. Second, working with professional level athletes is an indication both of your reputation as a coach among high-level players and your skill range as a coach. Some coaches are excellent at working with beginners, but might fail at providing helpful guidance to highly skilled players.

I appreciate the time and attention you put into your answers and I wish you the best of luck.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

Two reasons for asking specifically about professional players. The first, quite simply, is that professional players do not have an expectation of privacy. If I'd asked for your client list, my guess is that you would have told me (quite rightly) to get stuffed. Likewise, I would be upset if the coaches I've worked with posted my name in a public forum.

Makes sense. Most of my students I have a close relationship with and would volunteer information for the sake of research. I'm actually considering dropping student results here on the turn the key/flip the disc cue to provide evidence to its validity as a cue.

Second, working with professional level athletes is an indication both of your reputation as a coach among high-level players and your skill range as a coach. Some coaches are excellent at working with beginners, but might fail at providing helpful guidance to highly skilled players.

High level players and beginners are just different skillsets imho. You work with them differently and have to have more tools to be able to dip into either end of the spectrum. Someone that is able to take beginners and move them to above average is just as impressive to me as someone that is able to take an advanced player and move them up to the upper echelon. The second skillset is just the one that most people see as more valuable.

 

[geebob]

Makes sense. Most of my students I have a close relationship with and would volunteer information for the sake of research. I'm actually considering dropping student results here on the turn the key/flip the disc cue to provide evidence to its validity as a cue.

That would be interesting to see. From my limited experimentation with the technique, I could definitely produce a nose-down throw, but couldn't produce a consistent enough angle to make it productive for my 250' drives.

High level players and beginners are just different skillsets imho. You work with them differently and have to have more tools to be able to dip into either end of the spectrum. Someone that is able to take beginners and move them to above average is just as impressive to me as someone that is able to take an advanced player and move them up to the upper echelon. The second skillset is just the one that most people see as more valuable.

Totally agree with you here. In other sports, I've seen some incredible youth coaches who failed at higher levels and some very high level coaches who were terrible at working with beginners. Trouble is, it is really hard to tell if someone has a great skillset with beginners. It might sound impressive if I said that I coached three rugby players who played internationally, but the honest truth is that I just happened to be around these amazingly talented athletes. My coaching did little to nothing to help them succeed.

I hope that at some point in the near future, the sport will develop a coaching program to bring some "best practices" from education and coaching to disc golf instruction. I was shocked when I took my first coaching certification classes at the number of things I was doing badly. My guess is that your background has given you a significant skill set to bring to DG.

 

[StupendousMan]

Totally agree with you here. In other sports, I've seen some incredible youth coaches who failed at higher levels and some very high level coaches who were terrible at working with beginners. Trouble is, it is really hard to tell if someone has a great skillset with beginners. It might sound impressive if I said that I coached three rugby players who played internationally, but the honest truth is that I just happened to be around these amazingly talented athletes. My coaching did little to nothing to help them succeed.

Haha so true. I've got a couple of those types of athletes right now in the track world turning some heads up north here, and a couple coaches from other provinces have suddenly become very interested in what we're doing. I laugh and have to tell them the kids pretty much walked in off the street this good and my only real job is to keep them healthy and not screw them up. Which, admittedly, keeping a couple of 17 year old boys from doing dumb stuff on the weekend and hurting themselves is a big task at times .

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

I think for any of us that have been playing for a long while "getting rich" off discgolf is anytime you can quit your day job and earn something comparative to a manager at Radio Shack.

Just think of all the touring pros from the 90's and they all had other careers, it was pretty rare when someone like Climo could afford not to work.

I am much more cautious about dispensing advice now that I'm wiser. I stick to the tried and true facts/ basics that I have learned on DGCR that are indisputable... and mind blowing for the uneducated. Toss em a link to a seabass video that I think might help, or better just give em a comet or match a disc to their throw that is "speed appropriate" (not a 12 speed for a 200' hole).

 

[Nick Carroll]

So what you're saying is, Josh is Disc Golf Rich!

 

[OverthrowJosh]

So what you're saying is, Josh is Disc Golf Rich!
View attachment 336815

My wife definitely doesn't agree lol! But I'm definitely #discgolfrich in the fact that I am surviving off of disc golf income. If your definition of getting rich is the IRS views you as below poverty level then I made it.

For real though, part of my goal is to help get coaches a livable wage in this sport. When coaches can make money we'll see more growth in the level of play, coaching skill, and the sport overall.

Also, making your income off a hobby isn't always what it cracks up to be. I'm sure when Climo was able to be full time disc golf he didn't see it as not having to work. When people see Climo or Paul or myself even it is easy to look at what we do as non-work because that's the role it plays in your life. If you have to make your income off of it it definitely becomes and feels like work.

I had the conversation with Paul in 2014 or 2015 when he said, "I've got to go to work."

I laughed because of how awesome it seemed to me that he got to do that as work.

He responded with a half laughing "whaaaat?! That's really my job. That. Is. Work."

Later I clarified that I had laughed because of how awesome the statement was to me, not because I was making fun of what he called "work."

I'm not complaining. I get to make a living coaching disc golf. But the discipline, self-organization, time away from family, etc. is a much higher cost than most people realize and there is way more work than they would expect. Don't try to do what I do if you like working less than 60hrs a week and going out to eat.

 

[BenjiHeywood]

For those who haven't made their living from a hobby, it's definitely not all it's cracked up to be. As an administrator/organiser in ultimate, i was usually running tournaments rather than playing in them. And later, as a full time coach, i was either coaching instead of playing, or just needed a break from ultimate so didn't even want to play. Making a job out of the thing you enjoy is often a quick way to stop enjoying it so much.

That's not to say you shouldn't do it, it might still be better than any other job! But it's almost impossible to maintain the same enjoyment you get from it as a hobby.

 

[Nick Carroll]

My wife definitely doesn't agree lol! But I'm definitely #discgolfrich in the fact that I am surviving off of disc golf income. If your definition of getting rich is the IRS views you as below poverty level then I made it.

Yeah man, I hear ya. People only see "person 1 is making X amount of money" and don't see "life's overhead" which burns it all up on expenses. Disc Golf Rich is rarely ever truly profitable.

 

[CoachChris]

Perhaps it would provide more clarity if you'd like to offer some information about

• coaches that you regularly work with
• your income from coaching before and after starting to push YT content
• professional players that you coach

On a side note, Josh and I routinely talk about all things disc golf. He is very willing to listen and share. But that being said IMO all three of those questions are off base and aren't really anyone's business.

 

[Brychanus]

I am all for questions.

But I do hope that anyone who has read this thread is asking themselves how they would have felt if someone approached them in their line of work and asked them similar things, and whether they would have felt obligated or comfortable to respond in the circumstance.

In my estimation Josh has done nothing but show up in a place where not only his content but his moral compass, personhood, and literal business became a subject in a court of public opinion where he chose not only to engage, but respond to every aspect of everything that was asked of him. I'm not sure everyone else I know would have done the same. You may or may not be happy with or surprised by his answers, but he didn't need to provide any of them at all. He has been incredibly transparent about both his business and personal circumstances.

At this point the only additional things that could asked of him in the recent line of inquisition is to share his bank account numbers, tax returns, SSN, and similar personal information. I hope I don't have to explain why that is not appropriate.

I hope we would stand up for any DGCR member or person in a similar situation.

I will point out that the private messaging functions exist and work very well in this forum. When in doubt, I suggest to please use them.

Can we please agree to get back to discussing disc golf content and just be happy about who we have around us? These could be wonderful times indeed.