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2022 Playoff Rules change ...
- Thread starter araytx
- Start date
NOStheBOSS
Double Eagle Member
You are aware of the types of players that play competitive events, right? PDGA rules don't just apply to match play events, they apply to every sanctioned PDGA tournament. I think simple rules are best. The order is determined by previous scoring. Tournament rounds already take much longer than casual rounds. Throw in more decisions on EVERY hole, making it needlessly more complicated, sounds like a disaster. If you want to add a rule for match play events, which are already different than a normal stroke play tournament, fine. Just add it for specific tournaments, not to the entire rulebook.
Well, this far into this thread and I finally actually read the rule.
The tee order for the first playoff hole is random. Nobody is picking their position. If you get randomly picked to tee off first then it's your box. You don't get to defer if you don't want to be first up.
Since the players are tied for first place at the end of the tournament it seems a random tee order is probably pretty fair.
From the official rules in case others in this discussion also haven't read it-
"The specific order in which players tee off for sudden-death play shall be determined by random draw (e.g., numbered playing cards, selecting tee positions from a hat, etc.)."
The tee order for the first playoff hole is random. Nobody is picking their position. If you get randomly picked to tee off first then it's your box. You don't get to defer if you don't want to be first up.
Since the players are tied for first place at the end of the tournament it seems a random tee order is probably pretty fair.
From the official rules in case others in this discussion also haven't read it-
"The specific order in which players tee off for sudden-death play shall be determined by random draw (e.g., numbered playing cards, selecting tee positions from a hat, etc.)."
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
You missed reading the next line:
3. In the case of a tied hole during sudden-death play, the teeing order for the next hole will rotate from the order used on the just completed hole.
So, whoever tees on the first playoff hole, does not tee off first on the next hole when still tied. So the tee order continues to rotate during a 2-person playoff. Of course, this brings up the question on how this rotating works when there are three or more in a playoff? Comp Committee have an answer?
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
After reading your post, I thought....I read the rule and thought I understood it. Then I realized I was reading/interpreting it based on the previous comments. The rule doesn't allow either player to choose who goes first. The 'draw' chooses who goes first....whether it is a coin flip or the lowest/highest card or shortest/longest straw....whatever is chosen as the "winner" goes first. It's not like the NFL where the winner chooses their option.
On a slightly different topic, I wish the rules would allow "ready golf" like the USGA allows. It would speed things up. 400 foot hole...player with honors can easily reach there and is waiting for the green to clear. The "BOB" player only throws 200ish feet...has to wait their turn. There should be an option for that player to go ahead and throw since the hole is clear for them. It would speed things up a bit.
Seems like a decent adjustment for lower tier events. The type of adjustment a TD should be allowed to make--but it should be required to inform players of such adjustment before they register.
In the few sanctioned events I've played or considered playing, there seems to be a lack of information about how the event will be run that is available.
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- Dec 19, 2009
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No. I read the next section and realize that the tee order keeps rotating until someone wins. That makes sense.
It's just that before I actually read the rules the OP had me confused into thinking someone would "win" the drawing/coin toss/whatever and get to decide if they wanted the box to start the playoffs or not.
First playoff hole tee order is determined randomly and the order rotates until someone wins.
I would assume once the order is established for the first hole then whoever had the box just moves to the back for each additional hole played so that the tee order rotates.
Multiple ways you could determine the starting order:
Draw Straws - short straw tees first, long straw tees second
Slips of paper in a hat - #1 tees first, #2 tees second
Playing Cards - Ace tees first, 2 tees second
These are easily translatable to 3 or more players as well. Short, medium, and long straw. Three slips of paper. Three playing cards.
The draw should be to determine the playing order, not to determine who wants to pick the playing order.
In a 2-person playoff, if it extends to the second hole, the order flips. If it extends again, the order flips again.
In a 3-person playoff, if it extends to the second hole, the order rotates from A-B-C to B-C-A. If it extends again, the order rotates to C-A-B. If it goes to a fourth hole, the order rotates to A-B-C again. If one player gets eliminated at any point, the two remaining players will continue playing and continue flipping their order.
Draw Straws - short straw tees first, long straw tees second
Slips of paper in a hat - #1 tees first, #2 tees second
Playing Cards - Ace tees first, 2 tees second
These are easily translatable to 3 or more players as well. Short, medium, and long straw. Three slips of paper. Three playing cards.
The draw should be to determine the playing order, not to determine who wants to pick the playing order.
In a 2-person playoff, if it extends to the second hole, the order flips. If it extends again, the order flips again.
In a 3-person playoff, if it extends to the second hole, the order rotates from A-B-C to B-C-A. If it extends again, the order rotates to C-A-B. If it goes to a fourth hole, the order rotates to A-B-C again. If one player gets eliminated at any point, the two remaining players will continue playing and continue flipping their order.
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
I'm going to have to remember that one better. In a sanctioned tournament, I had a player claim that was against the rules. Not that they didn't want me to do it....but that it was against the rules.
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
This and other rules discussions shows one thing.....players may know the "common" rules, but the ones that are rarely used are also rarely "remembered" accurately. I bought two of the new rule books so one will always be in my bag and I'll carry the other one when I'm a volunteer at a tournament. I can't make rules decisions (unless a TD designates me as that), but I can let players look up a rule in my book (easier that using a phone to look up rules).
aren't players supposed to have a copy of the rules with them?
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
I don't think there is a requirement for a physical copy.
1.12.D of the Competition Manual requires Tournament Officials to carry the rules (tournament/course, PDGA rules, Competition Manual).
Not seeing yet a requirement for players to carry a copy of the rules - but I'm looking.
Maybe it was just something I read as a "recommendation" when I was getting started.
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
Yeah, that was recommended to me also. All I'm finding is:
3.01.B Player Code of Conduct (from the Competition Manual)
Not sure what sort of sanctioned event you're playing in where people on the same card have that much separation in distance off the tee. Either the guy throwing 400' or the guy throwing 200' probably belongs in a different division.
krupicka
Double Eagle Member
It's usually more the guy who knows he can't throw that far vs the guy that thinks he can, but can't.
BillFleming
* Ace Member *
Take me for example...I'm 684 rated, 62 years old and I have a noodle arm (42 mph throw). When I played MA3 based on my rating, most players were younger and throwing much farther than me. I moved to MA60, and I'm still usually the one throwing shorter distances. No matter which division I qualify for and play in....I'm usually being out thrown by the majority of other players. Once in a while someone has less distance than me, but it's rare. And, regardless of my rating, I'm really not novice even if tournaments had that division.
Since it was only two of us in the playoff, we chose the coin flip option after calling the TD (he was at the other course of the event) and getting it OK'ed. IIRC he did say we were going to be allowed to choose who went first (winner of coin[disc] toss). That being said it was immaterial, since I won and wanted to go first on hole #1. If that's not technically correct, I'm looking for correction on THIS scenario -- not ones other than this.
The rule seems to mention that the tee order for the first playoff hole is going to be randomly determined.
I think the part about the random order is key. So while tossing a coin for two players is random you would almost have to designate which player is heads and which is tails before the toss. If player A is heads and the toss comes up tails then player B would tee first.
Also, did one of you call the toss? If so, how was it determined which one of you would call it?
Seems there are always gray areas and room for interpretation. I imagine this rule may end up needing clarification going forward.
On a side note, did you pull off the win?
