AED's on the course?

[tomschillin]

I had my own incident just yesterday at Bucksnort. Luckily mine was overheating/exhaustion and not any kind of cardiac incident. A couple bottles of water and laying down for a little while and I was back to almost 100% in no time. It was a bit scary though, as well as an eye opener. Damn do I need to quite smoking! Especially while playing these mountain courses! 23 seems too young to have something like this happen. My thoughts go to the family of this young man.

 

[Tfire25]

I agree with most sentiments on here that the aed's are costly. I do not agree that they are cost prohibitive. If every course has one installed and it only saves 1 life isn't it worth it? You can't put a value on human life.

 

[DavidSauls]

I agree with most sentiments on here that the aed's are costly. I do not agree that they are cost prohibitive. If every course has one installed and it only saves 1 life isn't it worth it? You can't put a value on human life.

If I spent money on everything that might remotely save my life, I'd starve to death.

The argument that "if it saves one life, it's worth it" could justify all sorts of things. 20 MPH speed limits, or banning private cars. Banning 75% of the food we eat. Mandatory physicals every month. It's harsh, but it's always a cost-benefit analysis.

AEDs? I don't know. They're cheaper than I thought. If 5,000 courses each install one, at a cost of $2,000 each, that's only $10 million dollars. If someone has a heart attack on a course and it's a situation that an AED will help and he's not so far from where it's kept that people get to it in time and they use it correctly---then, yeah, I'll bet that guy, his friends and family all think it's worth the cost.

Perhaps the solution is more of them in more heavily-used parks, and the rest of us will make peace with the probability that our next heart attack is overwhelmingly likely to occur somewhere else, probably at home.

 

[The Hammer]

Not a bad idea. However, I could see the idiots in the park using these things to zap each other, or some other kind of jackassery.

 

[Thumber]

Not a bad idea. However, I could see the idiots in the park using these things to zap each other, or some other kind of jackassery.

I could certainly see some jackass trying to boost a dead car battery with one.

I could also imagine drunk idiots trying it out on their buddies

 

[Aim For The Chains]

this technology will get cheaper and it will become more common. It was a big deal for schools to get these 10 years back and now they are all over the public funded sector.

If you consider how many people frequent parks and die which this device could have saved a life you likely would find it is much better off to spend money else where. I would guess just as many people die in odd ways which you could never prevent but only try to defer the problem.

No one really dies without reason its just the unexpectedness of it which can be hard to grasp.

Also the AEDs I know of are wired to a 911 service line which triggers an alarm for dispatch so I don't think too many people would risk the consequences of tampering and a camera takes care of that for little to nothing in 2014.

 

[KniceZ]

Very sad story - unfortunately as DavidSauls said we have to temper the "if it saves one life" mentality. We should all use this to encourage taking CPR classes not trying to install AEDs, roads for EMS access, limiting courses to accessable areas, or whatever.

 

[Shamis]

Haha. America.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Haha. America.

Hell of a country when you can debate putting technology in a public park which some countries hardly have available at their hospitals :|

haha. ignorance.

 

[The Hammer]

Haha. America.

Laughing about someone's death? Classy.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

To David's point, while you can make the arguement "you can't put a cost on human life," the fact of the matter is we always make decisions about just how far we'll go to safeguard human life, and cost is typically the biggest hurdle. While we've made cars and highways safer and buildings more hurricane/earthquake resistant, there's far more room for improvements we already have the know how to employ... but who's gonna pay for them? We're always weighing how safe we can make things against what it will take to do so. It's often just a matter of time... things that once seemed infeasible (if not impossible), are now commonplace. Probably just a matter of time before AED's are all over the place.

Other practical concerns:
At $2K a pop, they aren't as much as I thought. But what's involved in installing one?
Do they require any sort of ongoing maintenence?
Don't forget, they could save the life of someone else in the park who may not even be involved with DG.

Even if they were made available to public parks, unless private entities donated them (or the funds for them) and specifically stated they're to be installed near the DG course, they might not even get placed near courses. I'd think park officials would have to assess the following risk factors to determine where they should go:
- What various activities take place in the park, and where in the park do they occur?
- What is the risk of that activity resulting in a heart attack?
- How many people engage in those activies?
Not you've collected some of the data you'd need to make an informed decision about best locations to put an AED within the park to save the most lives.

Considering there are activities far more strenuous than disc golf that take place in most parks (jogging, mountain biking, swimming, etc...) and more people doing them, what are the chances park management would even decide to place them near the course?

I'm simply taking a practical approach to this.

 

[Jukeshoe]

My condolences to the family, friends, and acquaintances of the deceased.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

To David's point, while you can make the arguement "you can't put a cost on human life," the fact of the matter is we always make decisions about just how far we'll go to safeguard human life, and cost is typically the biggest hurdle.

I'm simply trying to be practical here.

:thmbup: This is the case with our entire healthcare system. Its about where the $ comes from vs providing limitless care and even then $ can't always buy you the care you need.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

I'd like to point out something else apdrvya mentioned in the OP that's just as important perhaps. Assuming there isn't an AED, or that the issue isn't a heart attack... maybe someone's having a siezure, stroke, or was bitten by a venomous snake:

... on heavily wooded remote courses, what's the best way to "route" the EMS to the scene?

If you really want to make a difference, this is something to think about before you get to the course.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

That's a really good point. I have been out in the middle of many courses without knowing really how to get back to the main area in a direct path. not even sure I could describe how to get EMS to a few holes when parking lots and roads can be the furthest things away.

 

[Royal Hill]

Solutions oriented thinking:

How long before AEDs are to become a more commonly carried by many of us in our vehicles? Seems that may be the avenue for the widest distribution (outside of public gathering places). Secure, accessible, travels wherever we go. Near a source of power if you think its important (it's not - what other have said is true that plugging in is not at all important - battery based)

Aside from that day coming (by depressing cost, and increasing interest by aging baby boomers driving the spread of carryage) there would be an option for a club to sponsor an AED IF... there was a central located, secure storage and maintenance location.

For most clubs, that means at a pro-shop or equivalent (or a parks office) near the start of the course. Even on our biggest courses, the best way to get a unit out to the furthest reach of the course is by a runner.

CPR is great for everyone, and its of course best if all of us carry first aid kits of course, epi pens for those who need them, and plan plan plan.

 

[Shamis]

Laughing about someone's death? Classy.

I'm laughing about how stupid it would be to put one of these at every course, even the popular ones. How many people would it save? My guess would be maaaaybe one person over a 5 year span, while simultaneously breaking the budget for most courses.

People these days seem overly interested in spening a ****ton of time and money to prevent that bad thing that could happen .01% of the time.

What hole would you put it on? Do you think people could manage the half mile run to get it and still get there on time?

Might as well equip all disc golfers with helmets. That would probably save as many lives.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

If you really want to make a difference, [EMS routing] is something to think about before you get to the course.

It is very likely that this has already been taken care of for you as many, if not all, 911 systems get the GPS location from your phone when you call them.

The effectiveness of AED's is largely unknown, much less the cost effectiveness. It needs to be used in 3-5 minutes. On many courses that I've played, there is no way to get to an AED and get it back in that period of time for large portions of the course.

As to CPR, it would be good for everyone to know CPR but that doesn't mean that they will perform it if someone needs it. I remember being at a party in college when an older man collapsed on the dance floor. I saw the commotion taking place outside the room and then decided to go see what was happening. A bunch of people were standing around, not doing anything. I started performing CPR immediately after checking airway, breathing, pulse, etc. After I started, one of the guys started helping but quit when the "patient" started puking up the food he had been eating. I had to do it by myself for 10 minutes until the EMTs arrived while all those people were watching. Most of them were former competitive swimmers and trained lifeguards. They knew CPR, but just stood around.

Later, I learned the statistics. Only about 5% of people who get CPR outside a hospital survive until discharge from the hospital. BTW, I'm 0 for 2. Both were older, heart attack victims. I'd do it again for anyone in a heartbeat but I know it isn't very likely to work.

 

[The Hammer]

I'm laughing about how stupid it would be to put one of these at every course, even the popular ones. How many people would it save? My guess would be maaaaybe one person over a 5 year span, while simultaneously breaking the budget for most courses.

People these days seem overly interested in spening a ****ton of time and money to prevent that bad thing that could happen .01% of the time.

What hole would you put it on? Do you think people could manage the half mile run to get it and still get there on time?

Might as well equip all disc golfers with helmets. That would probably save as many lives.

You don't wear a helmet when you play? I never leave home without mine.

 

[Old Dog]

How common are heart attacks on DG courses? Not meaning any disrespect to the 23 year old or his family and friends but I don't see this kind of thing as a major problem for the DG community. Besides, as mentioned these devices have to be employed within a very short window of time to be effective and even then it sounds to me like it's a hit or miss thing. Are we even sure that this young man even had a heart attack? It's possible he dead from a burst aneurysm or some other medical emergency and an AED would not have saved him anyway.

I'm over 50 myself but I don't plan to quit living just to stay alive. I'm going to hike, bike, paddle, etc. and if I drop dead doing it... well I just guess it is my time and at least I will be enjoying my last minutes on this earth doing what I like and not worrying about what ifs.