Interference

[rhatton1]

810 E
A player who intentionally interferes with a disc in any of the following ways receives two penalty throws:
Altering the course of a thrown disc (other than to prevent injury); or,
Moving or obscuring a thrown disc or marker disc (other than in the process of identification, retrieval, marking, or as allowed by 810.H).

810 F
If a player or their equipment interferes with their own throw, the player is assessed one penalty throw. The disc is played where it first comes to rest. See 810.E for intentional interference.

810 G
Players must not stand or leave their equipment where interference with a disc in play may occur. A player may require other players to move themselves or their equipment if either could interfere with the throw. Refusal to do so is a courtesy violation.

A situation came up this weekend in a tournament in a conversational way. I was putting out from about 7 meters and one of the others on the card was directly behind the basket by 3 or 4 meters, for anyone that's seen me putting that's the danger zone.

There is always a lot of banter between myself and said player whilst on lead card (some might say too much ) He was being an idiot saying he wasn't going to move, I jokingly said I was aiming through the chains at his "delicate areas" so he should stay just where he was (Was this using an artificial directional aid...I hasten to add i was joking )

I made the putt with him still there but another player said if I hadn't and had hit him he would have got penalty strokes.

Would he? I didn't ask him to move, however he was standing where interference with a disc might (very likely would) occur.

Do I need to ask him to move and on refusal give him a courtesy violation warning and that's the only way he could receive a penalty (this was his contention that I would have to ask him to move for a penalty to occur)?

If he does get hit and I haven't asked him to move what would be the outcome? The rule says he mustn't be in play but what is the penalty if he does get hit? I couldn't find a logical conclusion in the rules and Q and A?

 

[rhatton1]

My personal feeling is if he gets hit whilst clearly being in play (as the first part of 810 G says is not allowed) he should receive some form of penalty but I'm not sure what by the rules.

This actually did almost happen to me later as I walked past the basket just as another player was taking their putt (It was pouring with freezing cold rain, he was obscured behind a tree and with my own hood/umbrella up I just didn't see him) If I had made him miss the putt I feel I should have got a penalty but under which rule, it definitely wouldn't have been intentional just dumb?

 

[Jugular]

If he's on the same card as you Rich isn't he supposed to stand behind you. Aren't players supposed to progress through the hole as a group. I wonder if by simply being closer to the basket than you he's really in violation of some aspect of courtesy.

I'm obviously not referring to any specific rules here. Might take a look this evening to see if I can find something related.

 

[rhatton1]

I had overshot the basket on my drive and was putting back towards the group.

 

[JC17393]

The rules say that a player is obligated to move when asked by the thrower. However, being asked to move is NOT a prerequisite for a player to be penalized if he's struck by the disc and is considered to have been knowingly in a position where interference could occur. It does not matter if the thrower asks the player to move or not, if the player is struck by the disc, the player can be penalized for interference if it's deemed to be intentional.

Ultimately, it's the player's responsibility not to stand where interference could occur. Given the back and forth described, even if it was all in a joking manner, there's no question that the player was aware that he could be struck by the disc. So if he didn't move to avoid that possibility, then I would penalize him if interference had then occurred.

 

[rhatton1]

Would the penalty be intentional interference then? So two penalty throws, that's the bit I couldn't really work out would it be that or a courtesy or neither?

 

[JC17393]

Would the penalty be intentional interference then? So two penalty throws, that's the bit I couldn't really work out would it be that or a courtesy or neither?

Yes, intentional interference. 810.G says that players must not stand where interference could occur. If they're standing in such a place and interference takes place, the case is fairly strong for an intentional interference penalty. Add in your (joking) conversation about his being in the way removes any doubt that he was aware that interference could occur. If he fails to avoid interfering when he clearly had opportunity to do so, it's a penalty IMO.

 

[REDARMY]

Would the penalty be intentional interference then? So two penalty throws, that's the bit I couldn't really work out would it be that or a courtesy or neither?

Sounds like your buddy is just a jerk-off.

I've never been a PDGA member or played in any tournaments (so i don't know the rules), but even I know that it's simple courtesy to not be in a player's line of sight when he/she is putting.

In your putting back towards the group scenario, the guy is an ******* if he's standing directly in line with you and the basket. Take a couple steps to the side/take a knee/hide behind a tree.

 

[rhatton1]

Sounds like your buddy is just a jerk-off.

So you've met James before then

 

[ToddL]

I think JC covered the basics here, but here comes my standard thread semi-related derailment:

In normal play (not quite the joking situation presented in this thread), it's up to the thrower to wait until the area is clear before he throws. It annoys the hell out of me when player A putts, retrieves his disc, walks 10' away from the basket, and then freezes perfectly still while player B putts. IMO, when I putt out and am retrieving my disc, I won't stop walking if the next player decides to putt immediately. I'm doing my responsibility to get out of your way, and it's your responsibility to wait for me to finish. I'll putt, walk to the basket, grab my disc, walk non-stop to a spot 30' away from the basket, and then turn around to watch the next guy putt. If he decides he's in such a hurry that he can't wait for me to stop moving, that's his fault, and I'd fight back against anyone claiming I was being a distraction.

(This is assuming we're taking real putts, like 15'+. If we're all putting from 5' away from the basket, the etiquette changes a little.)

 

[JC17393]

I think JC covered the basics here, but here comes my standard thread semi-related derailment:

In normal play (not quite the joking situation presented in this thread), it's up to the thrower to wait until the area is clear before he throws. It annoys the hell out of me when player A putts, retrieves his disc, walks 10' away from the basket, and then freezes perfectly still while player B putts. IMO, when I putt out and am retrieving my disc, I won't stop walking if the next player decides to putt immediately. I'm doing my responsibility to get out of your way, and it's your responsibility to wait for me to finish. I'll putt, walk to the basket, grab my disc, walk non-stop to a spot 30' away from the basket, and then turn around to watch the next guy putt. If he decides he's in such a hurry that he can't wait for me to stop moving, that's his fault, and I'd fight back against anyone claiming I was being a distraction.

(This is assuming we're taking real putts, like 15'+. If we're all putting from 5' away from the basket, the etiquette changes a little.)

1000% yes. The back-to-the-basket pause while someone else putts is a scourge that needs to be stopped. Not only does it look silly, but when you do it, your back is to not only the target but the thrower, so how are you going to be able to make a call (or second) if necessary? Or in the spirit of this thread, avoid getting hit by a thrown (or deflected) disc?

Players need to be allowed to get themselves out of the field of play before the next player throws. It's so odd that in this one particular instance, the more common practice is the opposite.

 

[rhatton1]

I think JC covered the basics here, but here comes my standard thread semi-related derailment:

In normal play (not quite the joking situation presented in this thread), it's up to the thrower to wait until the area is clear before he throws. It annoys the hell out of me when player A putts, retrieves his disc, walks 10' away from the basket, and then freezes perfectly still while player B putts. IMO, when I putt out and am retrieving my disc, I won't stop walking if the next player decides to putt immediately. I'm doing my responsibility to get out of your way, and it's your responsibility to wait for me to finish. I'll putt, walk to the basket, grab my disc, walk non-stop to a spot 30' away from the basket, and then turn around to watch the next guy putt. If he decides he's in such a hurry that he can't wait for me to stop moving, that's his fault, and I'd fight back against anyone claiming I was being a distraction.

(This is assuming we're taking real putts, like 15'+. If we're all putting from 5' away from the basket, the etiquette changes a little.)

Preach!

I hate this so much. I always ask players to just carry on moving if they do this.
there are a lot of newer players doing it on the course now as they've seen a pro do it on Jomez. There is nothing more distracting than someone in an unnatural freeze position. It also bugs me that they aren't watching my throw, but that's the rules nazi in me....

 

[DavidSauls]

Yes, intentional interference. 810.G says that players must not stand where interference could occur. If they're standing in such a place and interference takes place, the case is fairly strong for an intentional interference penalty. Add in your (joking) conversation about his being in the way removes any doubt that he was aware that interference could occur. If he fails to avoid interfering when he clearly had opportunity to do so, it's a penalty IMO.

It seems to me a bit of a leap from "intended to stand where interference could occur" to "intended to interfere".

I play a lot on hilly courses with sloped greens, where any spot downhill of the basket is a place where interference could occur. And a few cozy courses, where any place you stand could result in being hit by an active throw from another fairway.

I think interference, particularly intentional interference, is going to be a judgment call. As it is in many other sports.

 

[JC17393]

It seems to me a bit of a leap from "intended to stand where interference could occur" to "intended to interfere".

I play a lot on hilly courses with sloped greens, where any spot downhill of the basket is a place where interference could occur. And a few cozy courses, where any place you stand could result in being hit by an active throw from another fairway.

I think interference, particularly intentional interference, is going to be a judgment call. As it is in many other sports.

I'm only pointing out that the rules specifically warn against players standing or leaving equipment where interference may occur, and that if they do such a thing, and interference does occur, a penalty for interference may be appropriate. Doesn't mean it is automatic. It is, like you say, a judgment call. And in general, interference is more likely unintentional than intentional.

However, in the situation presented, the player in question argued that he would not be subject to penalty because he wasn't specifically asked to move out of the way. That is incorrect. Being asked to move is not a prerequisite. But the conversation itself is acknowledgement that the player is aware of the potential for interference, and electing not to move (asked or not) once it's acknowledged is bringing a penalty into play. I'm only saying that I would judge any interference in this example to be worthy of penalty.

 

[DavidSauls]

I can go along with that.

 

[da Crippler]

The penalty should be a good swift kick in the a$$. He'll remember that more than any penalty stroke.