Aggregate vs Sudden Death playoff

[_MTL_]

I could make the argument that sudden death can be more boring.

If player A totally shanks a tee shot, player B immediately is thinking par wins.

One playoff I was in this year, the other player threw a really bad tee shot. I then threw a really safe shot to 25 feet. He ended up hitting a 30 footer for par (which was exciting) and forced me to make it (which I did, also exciting), but had he missed, I simply lay up and it's over.

I try to make that putt in an aggregate playoff regardless of him making or missing for par in that scenario.

 

[DavidSauls]

Only on the first 2 holes of aggregate. The 3rd hole may be the same....or more boring, if the players tied the first 2. Sooner or later, you get to that point.

 

[DavidSauls]

As for tie-breakers in general, in all of the lower-tier events I've ever played in, I've never seen one cause a delay.

What happens---or what has happened, where I have been---is the tie-breakers are conducted unofficially, while cards are being counted. As soon as the lead card in the final round is finished, the players know they're tied; they are sent out to break the tie while the TDs are doing the paperwork before the meeting. Sudden death play is pretty quick, since it's just a twosome or threesome on an otherwise-vacant course. If it turns out the players weren't tied, but made a scoring error, it won't matter anyway.

I've never seen it happen, but it's possible a scorecard error, when corrected, results in a tie---and that tie-breaker would get off to a late start.

That seems good for 99% of events. Majors and perhaps tour events with a lot at stake, might want to verify scores before starting a playoff; and anything with live coverage probably wants to make sure the tie-breaker is real before showing it.

*

I'd think that no one would be satisfied with a tie. But I wonder a bit why the PDGA mandates ties be broken; if all players involved agree to remain tied, what difference does it make?

 

[araytx]

From a practical standpoint, unless there's a traveling trophy involved, I'd be for no first place playoffs and split the prizes in B & C-tiers regardless of division. Theoretically, it's you against the course, not the other players. If two or three of you shoot the same scores against the course, you simply tied. If there are trophies involved, let the players figure out how they want to determine who gets what trophy, maybe a simple 2-throw CTP.

I'm not engaging in a competition to wind up in a tie. I once lost a 7-hole playoff in an insignificant amateur geezer division.....but I'd much rather have that scar, than an unsatisfying tie. Yuck.

Sudden death playoffs are the highest drama available in dg currently. Just calling it a tie is LAME. While LAME is not a quantifiable facet of play I know it when I see it.

Overtime should be designed to decide a winner in the fastest way possible through a method that still functions like normal game play. So sudden death is fine. What college football does is an abomination.

But, if 2 players end up tied after multiple rounds the most accurate decision would be to declare them to be equals. What's wrong with a tie?

Personally, I am not in favor of sudden death or other playoffs, NOR am I in favor of ties. I think the current system really favors the player throwing second (or last for multiple players).
Regardless if you agree or disagree that one throwing order is favorable or not, at the very least the throwing order should rotate for additional holes when you play sudden death. Like it or not, sudden death is a different sport, as can be seen by what Robert posted earlier, and how he played that sudden death hole.

If I were king of disc golf, I'd eliminate playoffs altogether for B-tiers and C-tiers. Ties for first place would be decided by a particular stat (determined in the rules). It would be just as easy, and just as fair to have a card score playoff beginning with the scorecard on hole 1. Now the only way they are still tied is if BOTH players had the exact same score on all 18 holes. Then I'd move to a second stat, like fairway hits or putting percentage, etc. Plus, players would know going into the 18th hole if they had the tie-breaker advantage or not. Happens all the time in team sports with tie-breakers (first tie breaker is head-to-head, then record in the division, then record in the conference, etc.

A-tier and above could be discussed, but I'd prefer an aggregate over sudden death, with some type of rotation on throwing order.

 

[Steve West]

... I wonder a bit why the PDGA mandates ties be broken; if all players involved agree to remain tied, what difference does it make?

Maybe because they would then need to give each player a half (or third, etc.) of a win, and they don't want to change the field for "career wins" from an integer to a real number.

 

[philstine]

I've never seen it happen, but it's possible a scorecard error, when corrected, results in a tie---and that tie-breaker would get off to a late start.

2013 Memorial.

 

[JC17393]

At more than one event I've run, I've had tiebreaker playoffs delay things. First, as a TD, I never allow playoffs to start until all scores in a particular division have been turned in and verified. Once I had two players on the lead card tie and begin their playoff (before the card was even turned in) only to find out a player on the third card shot a super hot round and was tied as well. I make it a point that cards must be turned in before a playoff, and further that all cards within that division have to be in as well. If the last card turned in is in that division, then they wait for it.

I've also had sudden death playoffs take 7-8+ holes to complete, once when I was involved in it so even though everything was counted and verified (thanks to others stepping in), awards had to wait until I was done so I could conduct them. Another time, I decided to just start the awards while a playoff went on because it was MPO and I figured they usually are the last awards given so they'll be done before I get to them. Got to the end of awards and they still weren't done so everyone else left.

For that reason, I changed my playoff set-up from "start at one and keep going" to a specific loop of holes that kept everything nearer tourney central. Half the reason that one MPO playoff took so long is they had to hike back from the furthest point on the course once they finished...and it was January so they were trudging through snow.

So I've had plenty of reason to want the fastest possible tiebreaker. I couldn't care less about drama because I find when you try to manufacture drama is when you're least likely to get it.

 

[Lazerface]

I like the way the PGA does it. No blanket rule. I like the idea of aggregate for major and maybe NTs rather than sudden death for all.

If events have a final 9, then I would say sudden death for sure.

 

[Lazerface]

The idea of determining any tie based on some other stat in a singles format, regardless of the event level, makes me want to puke.

 

[ejvogie]

The idea of determining any tie based on some other stat in a singles format, regardless of the event level, makes me want to puke.

I am a math nerd, but tournaments should be won on the course

 

[Nubes]

Like other people are saying. Do what the PGA does? Aggregate or 18 hole playoff for Majors and all other tournaments do sudden death?? Works fine for them and makes sense. Obviously the top players on the PGA tour want to win but winning Majors is what really counts.

 

[araytx]

The idea of determining any tie based on some other stat in a singles format, regardless of the event level, makes me want to puke.

Why? Explain the reasoning. Particularly the part about any tier level.

I am a math nerd, but tournaments should be won on the course

And who said it wouldn't be? The score you got on hole #1 during the round WAS on the course.

It happens all the time in team sports. Two teams tie for the conference or division title, and the championship goes to...(wait for it)... the team who beat the other one head-to-head ON THE FIELD.


Basketball is basically the only sport that has its tie-breaker be essentially the same game. Shootouts, extra innings, NCAA tiebreaker in football, sudden death, NFL tie-breaker are all playing a slightly different sport than the one they played to get to a tie.

 

[ejvogie]

It happens all the time in team sports. Two teams tie for the conference or division title, and the championship goes to...(wait for it)... the team who beat the other one head-to-head ON THE FIELD.

Right. I get that. But in this case, none of the participants beat the other on the course. They're still tied.

 

[JC17393]

Why? Explain the reasoning. Particularly the part about any tier level.

And who said it wouldn't be? The score you got on hole #1 during the round WAS on the course.

It happens all the time in team sports. Two teams tie for the conference or division title, and the championship goes to...(wait for it)... the team who beat the other one head-to-head ON THE FIELD.

Yes, but those tiebreakers are typically used when it is impractical for teams to break the tie on the field. Particularly in a sport like football that is scheduled so precisely and isn't the type of game you can just throw an extra game in mid-week. In sports where a tiebreaker game is possible to schedule (baseball, for example), they do it. Very rarely is it impractical to send players out on the course to playoff a tie, and in the most likely instance of such a thing happening (weather delays), ties are now allowed to stand. There's little need for a statistical tiebreaker to ever be used in a disc golf setting.

Basketball is basically the only sport that has its tie-breaker be essentially the same game. Shootouts, extra innings, NCAA tiebreaker in football, sudden death, NFL tie-breaker are all playing a slightly different sport than the one they played to get to a tie.

Baseball plays the exact same game (more exact than basketball in that basketball overtime involves shorter periods). When the game is tied after regulation, a full extra inning is played. And if one inning isn't enough, they play another and another until an inning ends with a team leading.

 

[Steve West]

A one-hole round (sudden death) is exactly the same as entering hole 18 when the two players are tied. Even to the point of which player goes first.

Three problems with using statistics to settle a tie:

1. Too often, the statistic you pick will also be a tie. It's a smaller sample than whatever number of holes the players just finished, so it is more likely to be a tie.

2. No matter what statistic you pick, an equally valid different statistic would have given the other player the win. Because the players are tied, the other player must have "won" the flip side of the tie-breaker.

3. The winner is not the player that got the lower score.

 

[elmexdela]

Does anyone on here even play in any of the open divisions?

 

[biscoe]

Does anyone on here even play in any of the open divisions?

JC still does. I did for years but got old.

 

[DavidSauls]

A one-hole round (sudden death) is exactly the same as entering hole 18 when the two players are tied. Even to the point of which player goes first.

Three problems with using statistics to settle a tie:

1. Too often, the statistic you pick will also be a tie. It's a smaller sample than whatever number of holes the players just finished, so it is more likely to be a tie.

2. No matter what statistic you pick, an equally valid different statistic would have given the other player the win. Because the players are tied, the other player must have "won" the flip side of the tie-breaker.

3. The winner is not the player that got the lower score.

True. Among the options that come to my mind are most recent round, most recent holes, or a combination (best final round; if still tied; most recent holes). In short, weighting the finish slightly higher.

Still problematic; just a matter of what problems you prefer. Sudden Death---or 3 hole aggregate, then sudden death---causes delays. Unbroken ties are unpalatable. Other tie-breakers have their weaknesses. Pick your poison.

Perhaps with the consideration that the faults of any of these options might be weighed by tier, division, how much is at stake, and whether an audience (gallery or live broadcast) is to be considered.

I'd think that in most cases sudden death, particularly with well-chosen starting holes or a loop, will be the best option.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Considering we're talking PDGA events, you could ponder using player ratings to break ties similar to who has the lower number bag tag. You have to beat, not tie, to earn the lower tag. Could be the same way using ratings. Higher rating wins the tie. Of course, you would still need a secondary breaker if players have same rating or no rating.

 

[DavidSauls]

Considering we're talking PDGA events, you could ponder using player ratings to break ties similar to who has the lower number bag tag. You have to beat, not tie, to earn the lower tag. Could be the same way using ratings. Higher rating wins the tie. Of course, you would still need a secondary breaker if players have same rating or no rating.

Now you're making unbroken ties sound good....