[Vs.] Ahti vs. Pioneer

[Twmccoy]

Today's disc comparison is a couple Trilogy fairway drivers, neither of which I'd thrown until today.

Ahti is Tournament plastic, 175g. Pioneer is Opto plastic, 174g.

Pioneer has a 1.9 CM rim width. 1.2 CM rim depth. Rated at 9, 3, 0, 4.
Ahti has a 2.0 CM rim width. 1.1 rim depth. Rated at 9, 3, 0, 4.

Both of these discs have the same flight numbers as a Firebird, which is the disc I was replacing with them today.

One thing that became apparent early on was that the Pioneer is definitely the less stable of the two. The Pioneer will bend right a little on headwind drives, while the Ahti won't. The Pioneer also glides a little better, and fades later than the Ahti.

The Ahti had that perfect classic Firebird flight. Fairly poor glide, no high speed turn, and a lot of fade. The Firebird and Ahti are interchangeable, and for me do the exact same thing.

The Pioneer was slightly glidier, less stable, and longer than the Ahti. It seemed a little finicky in headwinds and didn't always end up where I wanted it. The Pioneer reminded me of a beat Firebird, a Felon, or a Raptor. It's a good overstable disc, but doesn't hold up great in headwinds. In calm conditions it did fine.

Top distance with the Pioneer was probably 360'. Ahti was 20' less, due to less glide and much earlier fade.

Conclusions: Both the Ahti and Pioneer are good, overstable fairway drivers. The Pioneer did well in situations where a little more distance was needed. It definitely stretches out better than the Ahti. The Ahti was great on headwind drives where a left finish was needed.

Both of these could be bagged and used for slightly different shots.

My numbers (based on what I saw today).

Ahti: 9, 3, 0, 4. Same as given. Westside actually rated this disc correctly. It flies as it should.

Pioneer: 9, 4, 0, 3. The Pioneer definitely glides better than the Ahti, and fades later. Still a fairly hard fade, but it isn't as soon. Fade is a bit softer than the Ahti.

This combo of discs actually made a good tandem, and I found myself reaching for both on the course today. The Pioneer worked well when I needed to stretch out the distance a little. Ahti worked better into headwinds.

If I had to pick one or the other I'd probably take the Ahti. I bag a Firebird, and the Ahti filled in perfectly for it. I didn't have to learn the Ahti at all. I just pretended I was throwing the Firebird, and it did all the same stuff.

 

[aphilso1]

Nice writeup. Like a lot of people, I have just stuck with my first meathook disc (Felon) and not branched out to other offerings. I have heard the Ahti described as a true Trilogy Firebird, the Felon as Trilogy's Sexton Firebird, and the Pioneer as the middle ground between the two. Sounds like your experience matches that description.

Have you thrown a Lucid-X Felon? If so, where would it fit relative to the Pioneer and Ahti? Just curious, since I typically bag a Lucid-X Felon for pure beef next to a Biofuzion or beat in Fuzion Felon.

 

[jmdaire27]

Also curious if the Ahti is comparable to an LX Felon. Seems like they might feel comparable, anyway.

 

[Moose33]

The LX felon I have is very similar in stability to the VIP or TPX Ahti I have. Have overall had better luck throwing the Felon in terms of accuracy, but as far as stability they are really close.

Could just be that I've thrown the Felon a ton recently as it was my main driver during glow league this winter.

 

[Twmccoy]

Nice writeup. Like a lot of people, I have just stuck with my first meathook disc (Felon) and not branched out to other offerings. I have heard the Ahti described as a true Trilogy Firebird, the Felon as Trilogy's Sexton Firebird, and the Pioneer as the middle ground between the two. Sounds like your experience matches that description.

Have you thrown a Lucid-X Felon? If so, where would it fit relative to the Pioneer and Ahti? Just curious, since I typically bag a Lucid-X Felon for pure beef next to a Biofuzion or beat in Fuzion Felon.

I haven't thrown any Lucid X Felons. I've thrown Fuzion and Lucid. The Felon for me is definitely like a beat Firebird. It'll turn into a headwind, and doesn't quite have as much late fade as a Firebird.

IMO the Ahti is the closest thing I've thrown to a Firebird.

If I were you I'd take a look at a star or champion Firebird. It's a true speed 9 beef cake, and the plastic is very durable. Firebirds don't usually break in and start getting flippy.

Sexton Firebirds start out like Felons. They'll turn a little into headwinds. IDK what the point of having flippier Firebirds is, but the Sexton definitely is.

 

[aphilso1]

I haven't thrown any Lucid X Felons. I've thrown Fuzion and Lucid. The Felon for me is definitely like a beat Firebird. It'll turn into a headwind, and doesn't quite have as much late fade as a Firebird.

IMO the Ahti is the closest thing I've thrown to a Firebird.

If I were you I'd take a look at a star or champion Firebird. It's a true speed 9 beef cake, and the plastic is very durable. Firebirds don't usually break in and start getting flippy.

Sexton Firebirds start out like Felons. They'll turn a little into headwinds. IDK what the point of having flippier Firebirds is, but the Sexton definitely is.

I'm not looking to replace my Felons, but rather was just curious how they compare to Firebirds and other meathook discs that I haven't tried.

The way I see it, is that if you want to have multiples in the same mold and different stabilities then your only choices really are Firebird and Felon. And either way, you're paying a premium for one of the discs in the pairing (Sexton Firebirds and LX Felons) and stock price for the other. I use a less stable Felon a whole lot more than my LX Felon. It goes basically the same distance as my midrange lineup just with way more windfighting ability, fade, and skip. That's certainly a useful shot, both backhand and forehand.

In contrast, an LX Felon is utility OS for me. I never drive backhand with it and rarely drive forehand with it. I'm only really using the LX in hurricane headwinds, or extreme skips on approach shots, or crazy flex lines to get out of jail in the woods.

I think the Felon is the right OS fairway for me. Since I use the less stable variant more often than the true beefcake, it's nice that I can easily fill that role with stock run Felons rather than chasing after pricey limited run Sextons. And I have had luck picking up Lucid-Xs in the past (pre-COVID boom) at a steep discount, as DD tries to clear room for the next year's run.

 

[Moose33]

I'm not looking to replace my Felons, but rather was just curious how they compare to Firebirds and other meathook discs that I haven't tried.

The way I see it, is that if you want to have multiples in the same mold and different stabilities then your only choices really are Firebird and Felon. And either way, you're paying a premium for one of the discs in the pairing (Sexton Firebirds and LX Felons) and stock price for the other. I use a less stable Felon a whole lot more than my LX Felon. It goes basically the same distance as my midrange lineup just with way more windfighting ability, fade, and skip. That's certainly a useful shot, both backhand and forehand.

In contrast, an LX Felon is utility OS for me. I never drive backhand with it and rarely drive forehand with it. I'm only really using the LX in hurricane headwinds, or extreme skips on approach shots, or crazy flex lines to get out of jail in the woods.

I think the Felon is the right OS fairway for me. Since I use the less stable variant more often than the true beefcake, it's nice that I can easily fill that role with stock run Felons rather than chasing after pricey limited run Sextons. And I have had luck picking up Lucid-Xs in the past (pre-COVID boom) at a steep discount, as DD tries to clear room for the next year's run.

If you dig a Felon that's great, it's consistent and available more readily than many discs. It's a bit less stable than Most Firebird runs, though the domey JL and less fly Star are close.

The Lucid-X Moonshine is basically a good flat champ FB in flight. Which is similar to the regular Ahti.

 

[ray1970]

If you want a beefier Felon you low altitude guys just need play at higher elevation.

The availability of the Felon (as someone else mentioned) makes them a viable option. I was in a store this morning and they had two, domey champ Firebirds and probably thirty Felons in three different plastics and a multitude of colors.

I do have a Pioneer that was a Christmas gift from a couple of years ago but I haven't even tried it yet. May have to sneak it into the bag and see how it compares to the Felon.

 

[Twmccoy]

If you want a beefier Felon you low altitude guys just need play at higher elevation.

The availability of the Felon (as someone else mentioned) makes them a viable option. I was in a store this morning and they had two, domey champ Firebirds and probably thirty Felons in three different plastics and a multitude of colors.

I do have a Pioneer that was a Christmas gift from a couple of years ago but I haven't even tried it yet. May have to sneak it into the bag and see how it compares to the Felon.

Felon and Pioneer should be exactly the same thing. Felon seems a little flatter, though.

 

[wolfhaley]

I bought maxish weight VIP Ahti at the Mt. Airy pro shop a few years ago. It is the most freakishly OS disc my noodle arm has ever thrown. I've thrown Firebirds and Felons before, never a Pioneer, but the Ahti is a step above those.

I just wonder why Trilogy needs 3 Firebirds.

 

[Twmccoy]

I bought maxish weight VIP Ahti at the Mt. Airy pro shop a few years ago. It is the most freakishly OS disc my noodle arm has ever thrown. I've thrown Firebirds and Felons before, never a Pioneer, but the Ahti is a step above those.

I just wonder why Trilogy needs 3 Firebirds.

If you look at Trilogy discs, you basically have 3 interconnected brands that overlap each other quite a bit. Westside has the Ahti, Dynamic has the Felon (and Criminal), and L64 has the Pioneer.

A lot of their distance drivers are the same way.