Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[johnrhouck]

DoC,

There is going to be plenty of elevation on this course. More than half the holes will have elevation as an important characteristic, and five will have substantial water features -- some holes will have both.

I wouldn't blame the city or club for not knowing the completion date -- the weather just keeps pushing us back, in ways no one could have predicted. And every time we thought the flooding was over, we got hit again. But we'll get there.

 

[oldfartdiscer]

John - is it bad hole design to put in a hyzer or anhyzer angle into a fairway about 80' or so from the tee? should these angles be further down the fairway to make it a better hole design? it seems that turning your disc over so early in the shot limits the amount of distance you can get and makes the tee shot more of an approach shot to stay in the fairway.

 

[johnrhouck]

Thanks for that excellent question, Rick.

It sounds like maybe you have a specific hole in mind; I don't want to comment on anyone else's design, so let's just keep it general and talk about basic principles. There are two that apply here.

In my mind, we need to always be working with full shots. No half shots or quarter shots. For example, we want to avoid par fours that are a shot and a half -- that's the most common violation of that principle. But what's a full shot? 180' to the basket, flat and wide open, is not a full shot. 180' to the basket, uphill and through a 10' gap, probably is a full shot. And a full shot doesn't mean that you're throwing as hard as you can – it does mean that the shot requires substantial skill, and off the tee, a full shot typically requires decent distance as part of that skill.

You mentioned an approach shot in your premise, so that sounds to me like it's a par four or five. In that case, the second principle I would apply here is that a drive should have a range of possible good outcomes. There should be room for good, better, and best drives. If your drive needs to land in a 30' circle to have a decent approach, then it's hit or miss, not good/better/best.

To be fair, I do occasionally design par four holes where the drive is hit or miss, but in those cases I always want to make sure the "misses" have a recovery option.

One additional principle I prefer is that the drive should be longer than the approach, but again I do occasionally violate that one if the resulting hole is good enough.

The bottom line is that good design calls for full shots and a range of outcomes. But let's never say never – every hole is unique and has dozens of factors that contribute it its success.

Hope that helps.

 

[oldfartdiscer]

Thanks, John. that helps. i'm helping out on a course in Fredonia, WI (Stoney Creek DGC). the land the city let us use is forested with a creek running thru. we are trying to use the creek as much as possible for shots across and baskets in areas close to the water. we are working on putting in an alternative anhyzer tee on a hole that already has a hyzer tee. i thought the anhyzer angle might be too severe near the tee and will be able to discuss it with the designers now. i have one more question now. is it good course design to have alternative tees on a hole instead of long and short? both tees are about the same distance, but require a different type of shot. thanks, Rick

 

[johnrhouck]

i have one more question now. is it good course design to have alternative tees on a hole instead of long and short?

Well, that just depends on your goals. If you're looking to provide variety, it could be a good idea. If you're making multiple tees in order to cater to different skill levels, then it may not be a good idea.

both tees are about the same distance, but require a different type of shot. thanks, Rick

The other thing to keep in mind is the balance of the course overall. If you have a well-balanced course and change 2 shots from righty hyzers to lefty hyzers, then you've upset the overall balance, and you might want to look at evening things out on a couple other holes.

Hope it turns out great. Judging from the photos here on DGCR, it looks like a beautiful spot for disc golf.

 

[tallpaul]

John - is it bad hole design to put in a hyzer or anhyzer angle into a fairway about 80' or so from the tee? should these angles be further down the fairway to make it a better hole design? it seems that turning your disc over so early in the shot limits the amount of distance you can get and makes the tee shot more of an approach shot to stay in the fairway.

Rick - Two you might want to take a look at if you get an opportunity: South Park of Wood County and Murray Park.
Neither are "knock your socks off" courses (though I've played South Park many times and rather enjoy it); but they are good examples of having two sets of tees that are not long and short; but rather; just offer different shots.

 

[Jimb]

John's written a couple of article about DUMB holes and he knows this is an important discussion. He'll write back to you when he has a little more time. Dee
Here is a link of the article.
http://www.houckdesign.com/dumbholes.html

Hello. I just found this thread. As the owner and designer of my own private course I'm finding it quite interesting. Thanks for the input.

I just read the DUMB Hole article and enjoyed it. It will definitely make me think about new holes and/or new basket/tee locations.

I saw that the data for the DUMB article was pulled from the 2002 Pro and Am Worlds data. So, for an intermediate and advanced level course, would you consider the drive and approach lengths to be somewhat shorter? Also, do you believe that today's distane numbers would be significantly different based upon the top men and women?

Thanks. Jim

 

[Jimb]

As a matter of practical advice, I urge all designers to remember that a good hole has good score variance, but having good score variance doesn't make a hole good. (Sometimes holes yield a variety of scores because they're poorly designed.)

Thanks,
John

This just came up in your article in one of the last two issues of Disc Golfer! :thmbup:

 

[Jimb]

I just read the Dear Diary articles on your page. Interesting stuff and I definitely have a good idea of what you were dealing with; on a smaller scale anyway.

So has the scout course been listed on DGCR? I couldn't find it searching the courses with your name on them as designer. I was hoping to see pics of how it ended up.

 

[Jimb]

Oops. Accidental dup phone post. :doh:

 

[MarkDSM]

Mini found at Kuzi's house tonight.

 

[Flip Hyzerman]

John - any updates on Strawn Park in Columbia, MO? Any chance it will actually open up this year? Everyone is very excited to get out there and start playing DG.

 

[grodney]

Mini found at Kuzi's house tonight.

Old school.

 

[rhatton1]

So has the scout course been listed on DGCR? I couldn't find it searching the courses with your name on them as designer. I was hoping to see pics of how it ended up.

I second this, I would love to see the final holes that you described the making off so well. If not on DGCR do you have a link to photos/maps etc?

Hell if you have any more back copies of your articles from the magazine I would love to read them too!

 

[geoloseth]

Just made the trip back to Selah yesterday. The courses have done well with all the rain that's come through. Was it always the plan to plant more trees on Creekside? If I remember Hole 12 had a couple new, large trees planted in the center of the fairway. Also Hole 10 has grown in so much that the designed lines are hard to see, let alone throw.

Any ideas on what maintenance should be done to keep them playable/enjoyable?

 

[grodney]

Hole 12 had new trees? When we were there in April, there were a couple new ones on #11 (the little shorty) that made it have tighter lines. There wasn't anything new on #12 at that time....just the same old hay bales.

As for #10, I could barely ever see the lines anyway, ha ha ha!

 

[geoloseth]

Hole 12 had new trees? When we were there in April, there were a couple new ones on #11 (the little shorty) that made it have tighter lines. There wasn't anything new on #12 at that time....just the same old hay bales.

As for #10, I could barely ever see the lines anyway, ha ha ha!

It really seemed like the main trees in the middle of the fairway on 12 had a couple new large ones there. Either that or they have really, REALLY grown.

10 used to have the straight ahead line as bait, it's still there but almost impossibly unforgiving. One guy with us threw a hyzer-flip down the middle, then a great second shot, and ended with getting up and down for the 4. I think it's the first 4 I've seen on that hole even when playing scramble at AM World Dubs. The right gap you just have to trust that it's there and throw it. First round I just went off the back of the teebox wide right and stayed away from the trees. Still took a 6 because there's no real line to get onto the peninsula - trees have overgrown everything.

 

[johnrhouck]

Thanks for all the posts and updates. Flying home tonight and I will try to get caught up later this week. Thanks for the notes on Selah -- will look into that. Nice mini, Gator! Garland Scout Ranch course is no longer there (politics) and our recent discussions about bringing it back are not hopeful (politics). Made great strides at Strawn earlier this month, and it could be open by the end of the year. Talk to you all soon.

 

[kingjames1014]

Mr. Houck, Do you have any updates on the course in Carrollton, Ga? I walked it today and it looks like it gonna be very challenging. I just moved to Carrollton last week & I am excited to have a great course so close by.
Thank You.

 

[johnrhouck]

KJ,

I heard that the boardwalk engineer was out there today. More tee pads later this week. Could be end of the year -- we are really getting close. Thanks.