Breaking Bad Timing Habit

[sidewinder22]

You are reaching/turning back too early before you plant left foot. Hold your pump forward until you plant left foot.

 

[Nick Pacific]

Terrible Terry Tate would posterize you and say "you can't come up in here with that weak posture".
SC in tilted spiral 2, would say your chest/pressure cooker lid is lifted up off, instead of chest/shoulders more tilted forward over the disc/swing/knees.
View attachment 326978

I've had this problem forever, and didn't even realize it until recently. I couldn't figure out why I wasn't getting enough weight into my front brace foot. This slight lean back will really take the weight off your front brace foot limiting power. I think it comes from years of of throwing too stable discs for your arm speed, so you tend to lean back and throw on a natural anhyzer.

I bet a LOT of amateur players do this, myself included. What has been helpful is standstill shots in the field, lots of them, going extra slow with putters and throwing them on a hyzer flip. It will get you leaning forward over your toes a little more. You'll feel the extra power in your brace.

Watching Henna Bloomroose do this with a putter from a standstill really opened my eyes to it, the light bulb went off watching her because she throws putters from a standstill a lot and really exaggerates the movement.

 

[Melonhusk]

Started taking a totally different approach which I think maybe has my posture looking better, in the sense of not so much back extension and maybe very slowly inching towards not falling so much to the left. Looks more athletic to me, still definitely struggling with a lot of the same things though.

First set (12/19) I liked my lower body better but upper body was weird, pulling the disc down over the top, then today (12/21) I didn't like my lower body as much but my upper body was I think better? Honestly I'm not sure, it looks better to me, but either way it's not quite right yet.

 

[sidewinder22]

Drag your instep on the ground.

 

[Melonhusk]

Throw feels like it's getting worse the more I work on it and I've been meaning to post for a while - seems like visually I'm making some improvements, at least in my footwork, but that could just be a mirage and even so everything else is a struggle. Here's sort of a compilation/montage of the past month:




That first session in the video really felt great, like I was able to relax in a way that I hadn't before. The throws felt so, so slow and easy and the disc just jumped out of my hand. Of course, I had to go on a trip and when I came back I couldn't do anything the same.

I'm still battling a sprained right middle finger, and frustratingly I'm still getting a lot of releases off of that middle finger which is what hurt it in the first place. Seems like that must have something to do with how weird my releases are, but I'm not sure which issue is causing which right now. I have to have my fingers taped up so it's definitely possible that's causing problems, but I definitely had a lot of middle finger nose up releases leading up to getting injured.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think you are reaching down too low, your disc and CoG are moving same direction instead of counter.

 

[Nick Pacific]

I'm still battling a sprained right middle finger, and frustratingly I'm still getting a lot of releases off of that middle finger which is what hurt it in the first place. Seems like that must have something to do with how weird my releases are, but I'm not sure which issue is causing which right now. I have to have my fingers taped up so it's definitely possible that's causing problems, but I definitely had a lot of middle finger nose up releases leading up to getting injured.

Be very, very careful with this. There is a combination of something off with your form/grip/swing and angle of releases, and just the wear and tear of practicing and throwing so much. You're probably gripping way too hard and forcing the process. It can take years, sometimes decades, to figure this game out. Finger tendon injuries can become chronic and never heal, and eventually can lead to problems off the course, especially with your dominant hand.

I had this happen to me and I'm still dealing with it 2 years later. I'd highly encourage you to back off your training, tone down the tempo and speed on your throws, and start working on throwing with a fan grip with your putters and mids more, that will take a lot of the stress off your injured joint while still allowing you to get reps in and work on your form.

 

[Melonhusk]

I think you are reaching down too low, your disc and CoG are moving same direction instead of counter.

Thanks! Is that mainly with the 360s, or everything?

Be very, very careful with this. There is a combination of something off with your form/grip/swing and angle of releases, and just the wear and tear of practicing and throwing so much. You're probably gripping way too hard and forcing the process. It can take years, sometimes decades, to figure this game out. Finger tendon injuries can become chronic and never heal, and eventually can lead to problems off the course, especially with your dominant hand.

I had this happen to me and I'm still dealing with it 2 years later. I'd highly encourage you to back off your training, tone down the tempo and speed on your throws, and start working on throwing with a fan grip with your putters and mids more, that will take a lot of the stress off your injured joint while still allowing you to get reps in and work on your form.

Yeah, definitely hear you there. I am cleared to throw again per the doctor and the finger doesn't bug me when I'm not throwing anymore, but until I figure out how to stop this from happening I'm stuck with fan grip and tape - just too risky otherwise. Just a very weird issue that I've never had until about 3 months ago, wish I could remember how I threw before that.

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks! Is that mainly with the 360s, or everything?

I see the same problem he described in the non 360s too.

One of the key lessons in Door Frame Drills, Load the Bow, and Pendulum style backswings is that you are "abandoning the backswing behind you" or "leaving the disc mass behind you." It pulls you momentarily taut against the weight shift into the plant. Mechanically, it's what's responsible for the fascial sling and lat muscle load and the ability to "burst" athletically and accelerate out of the backswing (which is ideally still very smooth).

Watch around 0.08 and go framewise. Simon's arm starts to extend at the elbow and wrist because he is "leaving it behind", and it is getting "pulled taut" against his body mass shifting forward. You can see the edge of the disc become more visible as it is left behind before abruptly his whole arm comes forward. That little bit of action is responsible for a lot of what the core and upper body contribute to throwing.



Now listen to the man himself. Watch from timestamp til about 8:15. "Feel" point: does to me feel like I'm getting stretched out and releasing that tension kind of like a rubber band through the core oblique slings and lat muscle. For some reason some players struggle for a long time to access it.


I work mostly with low backswings and there is a point where you need to find a "sweet spot" where it functions well low (between navel and sternum for most people), but it also needs to be loading up your core against the momentum of your body moving toward the target. DfD and load the bow are uniquely good at working on those optima IMO. I also have benefitted from the same idea with club swings recently.

I see other improvements since I've last dropped in here, keep it up! Agree w/ Nick to be careful about chronic injuries and warning signs.

 

[Brychanus]

^just remembered-

Flashblast once dropped into my form thread to encourage me to get very bouncy and limber when doing the door frame drill. I think it took me like two-three weeks before I could do it in a standstill reliably.

Grabbing the frame and learning the feel how the body shifting weight forward can cause the stretch im talking about as a little bounce-like action was very important.

I think a lot of players are not getting either the heave/leave back or the shift against the heave back (or both). Since they never get that bit of stretch and reflex and acceleration out of the backswing, they never get that significant power boost, at least not reliably.

 

[Melonhusk]

I see the same problem he described in the non 360s too.

One of the key lessons in Door Frame Drills, Load the Bow, and Pendulum style backswings is that you are "abandoning the backswing behind you" or "leaving the disc mass behind you." It pulls you momentarily taut against the weight shift into the plant. Mechanically, it's what's responsible for the fascial sling and lat muscle load and the ability to "burst" athletically and accelerate out of the backswing (which is ideally still very smooth).

Watch around 0.08 and go framewise. Simon's arm starts to extend at the elbow and wrist because he is "leaving it behind", and it is getting "pulled taut" against his body mass shifting forward. You can see the edge of the disc become more visible as it is left behind before abruptly his whole arm comes forward. That little bit of action is responsible for a lot of what the core and upper body contribute to throwing.


Now listen to the man himself. Watch from timestamp til about 8:15. "Feel" point: does to me feel like I'm getting stretched out and releasing that tension kind of like a rubber band through the core oblique slings and lat muscle. For some reason some players struggle for a long time to access it.


I work mostly with low backswings and there is a point where you need to find a "sweet spot" where it functions well low (between navel and sternum for most people), but it also needs to be loading up your core against the momentum of your body moving toward the target. DfD and load the bow are uniquely good at working on those optima IMO. I also have benefitted from the same idea with club swings recently.

I see other improvements since I've last dropped in here, keep it up! Agree w/ Nick to be careful about chronic injuries and warning signs.

Thanks for all the info! Worked on leaving the disc behind at shoulder level and in general trying to copy Simon's swing. It's super satisfying to watch how he begins with his shoulder/elbow closed off, disc around center chest, leaves the disc in place as he unwinds around it, and then after he plants the disc just shoots back in along the same path and out and away. Looks super easy - is not! But it did give me a mental/visual goal.

I'm conflicted on whether or not I have some kind of fundamental misunderstanding on what to do to throw the disc after I've completed my backswing, or if things only look bad because of problems created in the backswing/setup. Or both. Either way, I felt like I was doing exactly what Simon looks to me like he's doing, and it's not just a worse version of it, it's like the motion pattern is completely different.

I started off trying to copy how Simon looks to me throwing super easy, just barely doing a backswing but still leaving the disc behind.







I guess I could probably raise my backswing a bit, and still do a really minimal version of it?


And here's me trying full speed. To me this looks better than the slow throws, but still a lot of problems I can see especially after planting.

 

[Melonhusk]

More attempts at Simon imitation today, think I inched a little closer! Much happier with what my throwing arm is doing.







I've had an issue with my back going into extension for a while, and I think I'm finally starting to grasp it. I think my back extends because otherwise I would throw straight into the ground and pulled right. My head is still tilting towards the target, and I think the only way for my throws to wind up relatively in the direction I want is for my back to contort into that funky chicken posture. I've tried over and over to think about my head and how I can keep it oriented straight up and down, but I'm now really thinking maybe it's more an issue of the rest of my body needing to move under my head? I don't think I'm getting to my front leg well enough right now, or in the right way.

Only trouble is when I've try to fix this I usually wind up pushing off my back leg, and that just leads to more over the top. At one point today I thought maybe the swim move was the missing piece, maybe I could swim onto my front side. I didn't have much time to try it out but it wasn't a quick fix.

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks very flat footed, like you aren't using any plantar flexion/ankle extension on any of your steps leaving or landing.

 

[Melonhusk]

Something clicked for me with the "shifty running back" idea, finally realized how if you really do that drill (like Paige Pierce in that one gif that floats around here) using your whole body, using upper and lower body, it feels like the backswing, and learning how to transition from the X step into that drill I think gave me a better idea how to move over my feet. Still having some trouble with my weight shift, I know it should seem obvious how to use the drill to learn that movement, but I keep finding myself extending off my back leg when I know the back leg should be dropping relaxed. I'm noticing my right leg or possibly right hip is a bit weaker, so I wonder if that's part of it.

Warming up:





Throws:







Still struggling with the extended back/head turning early thing - I think I have a new idea of what I need to do there. Next time I get out I'm going to try to prevent myself from rotating at all and do everything else the same, let myself run out of room shifting linearly and let that drive the rotation. Not sure if that makes sense, but from moving in slow motion I think it could help cue the right feeling.

 

[Brychanus]

When you take your arm forward in your first warmup don't let it and your posture swing all the way around you behind the brace. That's probably part of why you're having trouble getting braced on the tilted axis and swinging a bit "over the top" of your brace.

3:25:



Same principle:

Leverage & Centrifugal Force are Sideways

Maximum Leverage and Centrifugal Force occurs approximately 90 degrees from target line with the arm extended wide out over your front foot to the side of the tee like a hockey stick hitting a puck to the goal or arm pulled out taut like ball on string releasing to target, and the rear arm/leg...

www.dgcoursereview.com

 

[Melonhusk]

When you take your arm forward in your first warmup don't let it and your posture swing all the way around you behind the brace. That's probably part of why you're having trouble getting braced on the tilted axis and swinging a bit "over the top" of your brace.

3:25:



Same principle:

Leverage & Centrifugal Force are Sideways

Maximum Leverage and Centrifugal Force occurs approximately 90 degrees from target line with the arm extended wide out over your front foot to the side of the tee like a hockey stick hitting a puck to the goal or arm pulled out taut like ball on string releasing to target, and the rear arm/leg...

www.dgcoursereview.com

Thanks! I think, if I understand correctly, that's about what I was thinking was going wrong in my throws, I'll try doing that in the drill too.

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks! I think, if I understand correctly, that's about what I was thinking was going wrong in my throws, I'll try doing that in the drill too.

Warning that the first time you get it to "click" in a live throw it's going to feel bizarre + more juice for less effort

 

[Melonhusk]

Warning that the first time you get it to "click" in a live throw it's going to feel bizarre + more juice for less effort

The kind of bizarre I can get behind!

 

[sidewinder22]

Too over your toes. Work on standstill behind your front heel.

 

[Melonhusk]

Ok that definitely made a difference for me, especially the arrow in the diagram showing the plant foot needs to be resisting East -> West. I definitely hadn't been doing that before.

Still something really funky going on with my swing, but feet are maybe a little better? I'm still really unclear on how to initiate the swing once I plant. I've just been trying to relax my arm, not open up and move as linearly as I can to not force any rotation, but there are still shades of over the top and the disc is always coming through at a weird angle.








Partly for the blooper reel, partly because it looked promising before the slip











Thanks!