Coaches' Corner

[BenjiHeywood]

Yeah, soccer is pretty awful i think. But the general culture in other sports here is to do what you enjoy.

There's lots of money in soccer, obviously, and individuals in things like golf and tennis obviously make big bucks. But it's not an obvious life goal, not in the way that NBA, MLB, NFL etc offer so many sportspeople the opportunity to make silly money. Professional rugby players aren't getting 7 figures a year or anything like it.

Being good at sport won't get you into college, for a start, and is highly unlikely to make you any money. The main reason kids here want to be professional sportspeople is because then they could play sports all day.

That has it's downsides, of course, and the US certainly produces far more athletes than we do. But, aside from soccer, there's isn't some huge industry chewing up young hopefuls and spitting them out.

 

[BenjiHeywood]

Actually, here's an instructive anecdote. I was working at the university of St Andrews, the home of golf, old course, Open Championship blah blah blah.

Seve Ballesteros's son applied to the uni. He actually had the grades, no special favours required. But he didn't get in. Courses are very oversubscribed, sure, but it presumably gives you a clue that sport is just not taken as seriously here.

 

[Nick481]

Thank you for making the thread @Brychanus ! It will be really fruitful for all of us to exchange ideas here.

 

[Nick481]

This looks fun.

Although I don't claim to be the most knowledgeable or most experienced coach on here I am an open book. If you have questions regarding anything involving process and logistics of private coaching please don't be shy. My goal is to help equip coaches (though I am still early in my journey).

This was very humbly said by you, especially with how successful your YouTube and Patreon coaching business are, and all the great results you have gotten people from what I've seen.

Something that I'm curious to hear about your experiences with online coaching (whether via analysis videos or live remote sessions), is roughly what fraction of individuals seem to be "motor geniuses" that are very good at self-organizing how to execute backhand form improvements (with either simple explanations and/or minor drilling or feel-based cues etc) vs people on the other end of that spectrum, that need extreme brute forcing of drills and still have a hard time with coordinating things or making major improvements translate to live throws.

 

[StupendousMan]

Thank you for making the thread @Brychanus ! It will be really fruitful for all of us to exchange ideas here.

I'd love to DM and chat track stuff sometime! I'm far removed from competing in it, but still very very active in coaching it. The amount of track related biomechanical ideas I've imported into disc golf have me intrigued on if you've found similar trends. I mean, I'm positive we've both imported experiences from it since they're both very type 2 muscle fibre activities, but I'm more curious if our experiences have aligned at all..

 

[OverthrowJosh]

This was very humbly said by you, especially with how successful your YouTube and Patreon coaching business are, and all the great results you have gotten people from what I've seen.

Something that I'm curious to hear about your experiences with online coaching (whether via analysis videos or live remote sessions), is roughly what fraction of individuals seem to be "motor geniuses" that are very good at self-organizing how to execute backhand form improvements (with either simple explanations and/or minor drilling or feel-based cues etc) vs people on the other end of that spectrum, that need extreme brute forcing of drills and still have a hard time with coordinating things or making major improvements translate to live throws.

The Krush Man himself. Cool to finally talk to you even if it is through a text medium.

Let me tally from this weeks lessons really quick…

Anti-athletic: 9
I I I I I I I I I
Semi-Athletic: 12
I I I I I I I I I I I I
Athletic: 7
I I I I I I I
Athletic Freaks of Nature: 0

Anti-athletic I'd define as someone that lacks basic rhythm and movement awareness. Like someone that throws 35-45mph despite being healthy.

Semi-athletic they take a little bit longer but you could get them to stride and coil during the last step consistently by the end of a lesson.

Athletic: Can work through movement patterns fairly quickly and can feel what's faster/more efficient immediately. Don't have to fill in the gaps with language as much.

Athletic Freaks: That'd be you. I've got about 3-4 currently that I think could be top level disc golf athletes not including any I worked with during the off season.

Edit: that would mean about 3% super athletes total for me.

 

[Nick481]

I'd love to DM and chat track stuff sometime! I'm far removed from competing in it, but still very very active in coaching it. The amount of track related biomechanical ideas I've imported into disc golf have me intrigued on if you've found similar trends. I mean, I'm positive we've both imported experiences from it since they're both very type 2 muscle fibre activities, but I'm more curious if our experiences have aligned at all..

Same here, I'd love to chat about that and our common experiences! I'm bad at thinking of ideas to start convos like that haha, you can message me whenever and I'll be more than happy to talk about the nitty gritty

 

[Nick481]

The Krush Man himself. Cool to finally talk to you even if it is through a text medium.

Let me tally from this weeks lessons really quick…

Anti-athletic: 9
I I I I I I I I I
Semi-Athletic: 12
I I I I I I I I I I I I
Athletic: 7
I I I I I I I
Athletic Freaks of Nature: 0

Anti-athletic I'd define as someone that lacks basic rhythm and movement awareness. Like someone that throws 35-45mph despite being healthy.

Semi-athletic they take a little bit longer but you could get them to stride and coil during the last step consistently by the end of a lesson.

Athletic: Can work through movement patterns fairly quickly and can feel what's faster/more efficient immediately. Don't have to fill in the gaps with language as much.

Athletic Freaks: That'd be you. I've got about 3-4 currently that I think could be top level disc golf athletes not including any I worked with during the off season.

Edit: that would mean about 3% super athletes total for me.

Thank you for getting back to me on that! It's nice to see some numbers especially since your data pool is quite large and gives good context.

I know remote coaching can't 100% solve every single individual just like in-person coaching can't 100% solve every single individual, but I'm dreaming of a day where I can be just as effective for everyone from top to bottom inclusively in that range. I suppose that's where the art form/magic/vast experience come in though, figuring out how to meet every person where they need to be met.

 

[Brychanus]

This was very humbly said by you, especially with how successful your YouTube and Patreon coaching business are, and all the great results you have gotten people from what I've seen.

Something that I'm curious to hear about your experiences with online coaching (whether via analysis videos or live remote sessions), is roughly what fraction of individuals seem to be "motor geniuses" that are very good at self-organizing how to execute backhand form improvements (with either simple explanations and/or minor drilling or feel-based cues etc) vs people on the other end of that spectrum, that need extreme brute forcing of drills and still have a hard time with coordinating things or making major improvements translate to live throws.

I get a similar profile to Josh so far.

I believe these people exist if we excuse ourselves from debating the usual nature-or-nuture quagmire. They usually show up after a childhood of being proficient in multiple sports and also come from athletic families. I'm basically the opposite of them myself (started "anti-athletic" in Josh's terms).

Percentages: I'm really curious about the real number out there too, not just who shows up to a given coach. I have a little set of "tests" for this already to determine how much work is ahead.
1) I have them do hammer dingle arms and throws, then with disc.
2) I have them do a few weight shift drills in standstills (w/ and without little strides).
3) I have them show me their X-step.

What I guess I'm finding kind of interesting is that almost everyone does number (2) the best once you get their attention off the disc itself. For (1) people often seem to get the idea of wrist transfer and leverage fairly quickly with hammers, but the majority of them have a heck of a time connecting the whole move through their weight shift even if they already showed a pretty good one in (2).

Then there are those special few where they look like a kid naturally throwing with their whole body, and you start to give them advice, and they just... do it. They put on distance in spades at first, are quick and have good balance, and listen and try what you suggest and usually hit it on the first or second try. It's like they showed up with the clay, and they are helping to sculpt it almost as soon as you are showing or saying it. These are also the people who are most likely to make one minor or major adjustment and then you get those spontaneous 50'-100' gains - and they actually stick. The only thing you feel like you can take credit for is helping to nudge them on a good path and then get out of the way because they do the rest. They throw far and fluid and limber even with one or more major mechanical "limits." It's awesome in the fullest meaning of the word. I still think this describes the highest end of the "athletic" category for most people I've worked with directly.

The people that extreme are also very rare. Depending on your cutpoint for genius, I think I would estimate very low to sub-single digits. Josh's count is probably right on the spot for a weekly subsample. Many of those same people aren't bothering getting coached because they take it so far themselves that it might slow them down even if it might be valuable in one way or another.

Interestingly and I think one area for coaches even among the motor geniuses: I do not think I have ever seen someone with what I would call an ideal (3) X-step from a balance and posture perspective at "hello" no matter how talented, but some people including what I would label as these "geniuses" improve much faster than others. Very few people including those same geniuses achieve their "Platonic ideal" X-step, which I find fascinating.

 

[Nick481]

Something I've been pondering over recently and talking to @Clint Easterly

I get a similar profile to Josh so far.

I believe these people exist if we excuse ourselves from debating the usual nature-or-nuture quagmire. They usually show up after a childhood of being proficient in multiple sports and also come from athletic families. I'm basically the opposite of them myself (started "anti-athletic" in Josh's terms).

Percentages: I'm really curious about the real number out there too, not just who shows up to a given coach. I have a little set of "tests" for this already to determine how much work is ahead.
1) I have them do hammer dingle arms and throws, then with disc.
2) I have them do a few weight shift drills in standstills (w/ and without little strides).
3) I have them show me their X-step.

What I guess I'm finding kind of interesting is that almost everyone does number (2) the best once you get their attention off the disc itself. For (1) people often seem to get the idea of wrist transfer and leverage fairly quickly with hammers, but the majority of them have a heck of a time connecting the whole move through their weight shift even if they already showed a pretty good one in (2). Then there are those special few where they look like a kid naturally throwing with their whole body, and you start to give them advice, and they just... do it. They put on distance in spades at first, are quick and have good balance, and listen and try what you suggest and usually hit it on the first or second try. It's like they showed up with the clay, and they are helping to sculpt it almost as soon as you are showing or saying it. These are also the people who are most likely to make one minor or major adjustment and then you get those spontaneous 50'-100' gains - and they actually stick. The only thing you feel like you can take credit for is helping to nudge them on a good path and then get out of the way because they do the rest. They throw far and fluid and limber even with one or more major mechanical "limits." It's awesome in the fullest meaning of the word. I still think this describes the highest end of the "athletic" category for most people I've worked with directly.

The people that extreme are also very rare. Depending on your cutpoint for genius, I think I would estimate very low to sub-single digits. Josh's count is probably right on the spot for a weekly subsample. Many of those same people aren't bothering getting coached because they take it so far themselves that it might slow them down even if it might be valuable in one way or another.

Interestingly and I think one area for coaches even among the motor geniuses: I do not think I have ever seen someone with what I would call an ideal (3) X-step from a balance and posture perspective at "hello" no matter how talented, but some people including what I would label as these "geniuses" improve much faster than others. Very few people including those same geniuses achieve their "Platonic ideal" X-step, which I find fascinating.

I like those diagnostic/baseline tests a lot.

Thanks for expanding on your experiences with people as well, that was an interesting read for me.

And in general, I find the motor learning and psychological components of getting backhand form changes to actually happen for people so fascinating. For me, I was mega talented at all throwing sports growing up but getting my lower body working correctly on my x-step was very difficult (just ask @sidewinder22 about all of the coaching he had to give me over the years, especially to get my feet and hips working better).

What you mentioned about very few people achieving the ideal x-step is definitely what I've noticed as well. Such an underrated movement in athletics and so hard to master, when I watch Wiggins' 360 in slowmo for example, I'm more impressed with what I see him doing than what I see at D1 NCAA track meets (up close, competing in them) in a lot of ways. No joke.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

Thank you for getting back to me on that! It's nice to see some numbers especially since your data pool is quite large and gives good context.

I know remote coaching can't 100% solve every single individual just like in-person coaching can't 100% solve every single individual, but I'm dreaming of a day where I can be just as effective for everyone from top to bottom inclusively in that range. I suppose that's where the art form/magic/vast experience come in though, figuring out how to meet every person where they need to be met.

Yeah personally I take the most satisfaction and learning from getting an unathletic person to an average throwing distance. When you get one of those people that started at 35mph up to 55mph you're like "ITS A MIRACLE!!!"

You never want to write someone off but when you have a 55yr old man that disc golf is the first sport he ever played you get surprised after a year of grinding.

 

[Brychanus]

Something I've been pondering over recently and talking to @Clint Easterly


I like those diagnostic/baseline tests a lot.

Thanks for expanding on your experiences with people as well, that was an interesting read for me.

And in general, I find the motor learning and psychological components of getting backhand form changes to actually happen for people so fascinating. For me, I was mega talented at all throwing sports growing up but getting my lower body working correctly on my x-step was very difficult (just ask @sidewinder22 about all of the coaching he had to give me over the years, especially to get my feet and hips working better).

What you mentioned about very few people achieving the ideal x-step is definitely what I've noticed as well. Such an underrated movement in athletics and so hard to master, when I watch Wiggins' 360 in slowmo for example, I'm more impressed with what I see him doing than what I see at D1 NCAA track meets (up close, competing in them) in a lot of ways. No joke.

Yeah I think one of the things that interests me is exactly what you said - as an ultra athlete with relevant throwing background you will probably continue to have theoretical gains you could make for quite some time should you choose to pursue them. Sidewinder is exceptionally good at understanding that part of the move...

I'm glad to hear your example about D1 meets since I didn't compete in anything close to that growing up. I tend to put Wiggins move right up there with Jan Zelezny for a reason, hopefully. Obviously all of the top Dawgs these days are somewhere in the range of that "ideal," in a mechanics sense, but I'm not sure anyone else's move exactly stacks up to Big Wigg's. I like to look at his move often and then think about how to "retrofit" it to whatever a given player can do, especially given that most people have nowhere near his athleticism.

 

[StupendousMan]

Yeah personally I take the most satisfaction and learning from getting an unathletic person to an average throwing distance. When you get one of those people that started at 35mph up to 55mph you're like "ITS A MIRACLE!!!"

You never want to write someone off but when you have a 55yr old man that disc golf is the first sport he ever played you get surprised after a year of grinding.

This might be a hot take, but I think this is the kind of perspective that really identifies who is actually coaching to coach. Anyone whose coached any amount of time in any sport knows the "freaks" (a compliment) are going to continue to improve basically no matter what you do, despite them being the athletes you get "credit" for. They bring their own complications of course that are quite fascinating: injury resilience, building buy in knowing they improve no matter what, attitudes towards practice, etc, etc.. But, it's no more difficult than coaching an unathletic person to improvement, just a different approach and task. Both present their own challenges and finding satisfaction in both is really a key ingredient in making a truly special coach. Too many in it just to live vicariously through the freak imo.

 

[Brychanus]

This might be a hot take, but I think this is the kind of perspective that really identifies who is actually coaching to coach. Anyone whose coached any amount of time in any sport knows the "freaks" (a compliment) are going to continue to improve basically no matter what you do, despite them being the athletes you get "credit" for. They bring their own complications of course that are quite fascinating: injury resilience, building buy in knowing they improve no matter what, attitudes towards practice, etc, etc.. But, it's no more difficult than coaching an unathletic person to improvement, just a different approach and task. Both present their own challenges and finding satisfaction in both is really a key ingredient in making a truly special coach. Too many in it just to live vicariously through the freak imo.

This is part of why I realized I deeply enjoyed working with somewhat older students who have some wear and tear and/or athletic limits otherwise!

 

[OverthrowJosh]

"It's the student that makes the coach."

One of my favorite lines. So simple. So right.

You really can't say the wrong thing to a natural athlete and unfortunately there are some people you could never find the "right" thing to say to them.

People will undoubtedly give more credence to my coaching ability if I've got a student that is in top 10 MPO on the DGPT even if taking someone from 250' to 350' was a taller task.

 

[Nick481]

Yeah personally I take the most satisfaction and learning from getting an unathletic person to an average throwing distance. When you get one of those people that started at 35mph up to 55mph you're like "ITS A MIRACLE!!!"

You never want to write someone off but when you have a 55yr old man that disc golf is the first sport he ever played you get surprised after a year of grinding.

Heck yeah! Love to see that work out so well.

 

[Nick481]

Yeah I think one of the things that interests me is exactly what you said - as an ultra athlete with relevant throwing background you will probably continue to have theoretical gains you could make for quite some time should you choose to pursue them. Sidewinder is exceptionally good at understanding that part of the move...

I'm glad to hear your example about D1 meets since I didn't compete in anything close to that growing up. I tend to put Wiggins move right up there with Jan Zelezny for a reason, hopefully. Obviously all of the top Dawgs these days are somewhere in the range of that "ideal," in a mechanics sense, but I'm not sure anyone else's move exactly stacks up to Big Wigg's. I like to look at his move often and then think about how to "retrofit" it to whatever a given player can do, especially given that most people have nowhere near his athleticism.

I 100% agree with the Jan Zelezny comparison - absolute freaks and the gold standard of power technique in their respective sports.

 

[Nick481]

"It's the student that makes the coach."

One of my favorite lines. So simple. So right.

You really can't say the wrong thing to a natural athlete and unfortunately there are some people you could never find the "right" thing to say to them.

People will undoubtedly give more credence to my coaching ability if I've got a student that is in top 10 MPO on the DGPT even if taking someone from 250' to 350' was a taller task.

So well said.

 

[OverthrowJosh]

@Nick481 are you trying to grow a clientele now? Or just messin around with YouTube for fun?

 

[Nick481]

@Nick481 are you trying to grow a clientele now? Or just messin around with YouTube for fun?

Still pinching myself a bit, but the backhand form and fitness coaching have taken off so hard in the past 6 weeks, that I'm now selling out my stake in my software business to my business partner to do the disc golf stuff full-time. Really a dream come true to coach people since sports and training have been such a big part of my life for so long, and I'm already much happier and more fulfilled than doing my old work.

I'm working on getting my website up and trying to streamline the operations of how I'm managing clients so I can bring more on, candidly I already took some peeks at your Patreon setup to get some ideas for subscription models and general operations. Really liked the multi-tier system that gives people of different needs an appropriate option, as well as the community-building stuff and premium content access etc.