DG as Transitional Land Use

[jeffboi]

Hi,
I have noticed a trend where DG courses easily go into public parks on the edge of civilization and then as growth happens around the area courses get re-purposed.

I'm looking for thoughts on an idea; isn't it easier in the long run to create non-profits, buy property - build your own course - and then later threaten to build a few hundred condos; and then negotiate giving the land to the gov with the condition it remains a DG course in perpetuity?

In my area the start-up cost would be about 250K. I live in a fast growing area but suspect the gov would pay you back the 250k and take over the course in under 10 years.

Maybe the plan would include doing the first course w/ the gov so you could grow enough interest to raise the 250k - then move on ...

 

[araytx]

Hi,
I have noticed a trend where DG courses easily go into public parks on the edge of civilization and then as growth happens around the area courses get re-purposed.

I'm looking for thoughts on an idea; isn't it easier in the long run to create non-profits, buy property - build your own course - and then later threaten to build a few hundred condos; and then negotiate giving the land to the gov with the condition it remains a DG course in perpetuity?

In my area the start-up cost would be about 250K. I live in a fast growing area but suspect the gov would pay you back the 250k and take over the course in under 10 years.

Maybe the plan would include doing the first course w/ the gov so you could grow enough interest to raise the 250k - then move on ...

Good luck getting a public entity, like a municipality, to have an attorney advise them to do anything in perpetuity. That's the famed Ozzie & Dan Silna giveaway.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Hi,
I have noticed a trend where DG courses easily go into public parks on the edge of civilization and then as growth happens around the area courses get re-purposed.

I'm looking for thoughts on an idea; isn't it easier in the long run to create non-profits, buy property - build your own course - and then later threaten to build a few hundred condos; and then negotiate giving the land to the gov with the condition it remains a DG course in perpetuity?

In my area the start-up cost would be about 250K. I live in a fast growing area but suspect the gov would pay you back the 250k and take over the course in under 10 years.

Maybe the plan would include doing the first course w/ the gov so you could grow enough interest to raise the 250k - then move on ...

Lol wut.

I have never heard of any branch of any government anywhere doing such a thing. Especially the local muni's since they can collect property tax if someone else owns the land. Yes, they are greedy like that. I'm just having a hard time envisioning a real life scenario where this would happen. Has something like this happened in the real world before? Examples?

 

[Consult20]

Lol wut.

I have never heard of any branch of any government anywhere doing such a thing. Especially the local muni's since they can collect property tax if someone else owns the land. Yes, they are greedy like that. I'm just having a hard time envisioning a real life scenario where this would happen. Has something like this happened in the real world before? Examples?

Cities do buy land for new parks so it's not out of the question, I'd be more concerned with getting the $250k to buy and build the course in the first place. Has anyone ever used gofundme for a dg course, or is that not an appropriate venue?

 

[jeffboi]

Cities do buy land for new parks so it's not out of the question

This is correct - thank you!

Some places have Rural & Critical Land Trusts and when you drive around you see the signs that say "This x acres was preserved by x city name"

Here is an example http://www.bcgov.net/departments/Pl...ing/rural-and-critical-lands-preservation.php

The 250k is for sure an issue, but the program is potentially self-sustaining as the "entity" could possibly get market value making a profit to repeat the process.

 

[jeffboi]

Lol wut.

Examples?

http://www.bcgov.net/departments/Pl...ing/rural-and-critical-lands-preservation.php

 

[donnyv]

^ We have something similar in Michigan but I don't think DG would fall under any of those categories.

 

[joecoin]

...

The 250k is for sure an issue, but the program is potentially self-sustaining as the "entity" could possibly get market value making a profit to repeat the process.

Could you translate this into English please?

 

[Consult20]

The 250k is for sure an issue, but the program is potentially self-sustaining as the "entity" could possibly get market value making a profit to repeat the process.

Could you translate this into English please?

Not trying to be funny (ok maybe a little), but the way that was worded made me think it sounds like an Amway/pyramid scheme for disc golf courses

 

[DavidSauls]

It won't work. Or, at least, it would be very hard to make work.

Assuming you could buy suitable land for $250,000, you'd have to have your non-profit raise $250,000 in cash. Otherwise, you'd never get financing, and if you could you'd be paying $15,000 or more a year in interest. Who's donating that much cash, to this project?

Then you'd have all of the other expenses of installation and maintenance.

Under the assumption that the government would buy that land at some point. Even if they decide to buy more parkland, there's no guarantee that they'll choose yours over some other parcel someone is selling, perhaps cheaper. The existing disc golf course is unlikely to make a big difference to them.

 

[ToddL]

I'm looking for thoughts on an idea; isn't it easier in the long run to create non-profits, buy property - build your own course - and then later threaten to build a few hundred condos; and then negotiate giving the land to the gov with the condition it remains a DG course in perpetuity?

Why would the government bawk at your "threat" to build a few hundred condos? They would probably rather have a few hundred people paying property tax than your silly disc golf course taking up valuable land and costing money to maintain.

 

[jeffboi]

The Gov usually pays somewhere near market value for the land. If you owned it for a while, it's probably more then you paid.

 

[jeffboi]

It won't work. Or, at least, it would be very hard to make work.

Assuming you could buy suitable land for $250,000, you'd have to have your non-profit raise $250,000 in cash. Otherwise, you'd never get financing, and if you could you'd be paying $15,000 or more a year in interest. Who's donating that much cash, to this project?

Then you'd have all of the other expenses of installation and maintenance.

Under the assumption that the government would buy that land at some point. Even if they decide to buy more parkland, there's no guarantee that they'll choose yours over some other parcel someone is selling, perhaps cheaper. The existing disc golf course is unlikely to make a big difference to them.

I built all that into the pricing model. It's a cash purchase ... good points on the rest

 

[jeffboi]

development adds traffic and environmental stresses - good point, there is no guarantee - I guess you would be stuck with a disc golf course ... or sell off the property and the development rights and make a profit - then repeat

 

[wkelly42]

Or the government declares eminent domain and just takes the land ...

 

[DavidSauls]

development adds traffic and environmental stresses - good point, there is no guarantee - I guess you would be stuck with a disc golf course ... or sell off the property and the development rights and make a profit - then repeat

Are you suggesting a non-profit that would raise $250,000 in donations, from people with no expectation of receiving that money back? Hard to imagine raising that much money, but at least it would be a low-risk venture.

If not, buying and later selling vacant land is speculative. You could sell it 10 years later, perhaps at a profit, perhaps not. In the meantime, you'd have all of the other costs (installation, maintenance, taxes, insurance), and the thought that you could have a much better return on that money, elsewhere.

I just don't see a formula where this would work out. There's a better chance of just building a private course, and leaving the local government out of it, entirely.

 

[davetherocketguy]

I guess if you are going to go through all the trouble of organizing a non-profit and raising 250k why in the world sell it back to the local muni? Why not just keep it under the control of the non-profit so the gubmint can keep it's claws out of the operation? With a formula like that, then there's the option to open up a pro-shop and possibly have the property become self-sustaining financially.

I have little trust in local goverments sometimes. You need to remember that they operate in their own best interests. I don't care how well worded the sale agreement which leaves the disc golf course in there may come a day when they say "screw it" and the disc golf course get's yanked for the next park fad sweeping the nation. Then what? Go to court and fight the good fight? With what money? Sure, you might be able to get a court injunction but that would only serve to create a mountain of animosity where the local muni refuses to maintain the course, creates idiotic laws/ordinances that make discing difficult or impossible. Like I said, if you're going to go through the trouble of raising all that money and create a non-profit then leave it in the hands of the non-profit.

 

[DavidSauls]

I think the theory is that if you create a private course, you've got one course. If you create a course, sell it to the local government, create another, sell it, etc., you have the potential to create many more courses. Public courses, admittedly, with all that entails, but many more of them.

I think it's impractical, for all sorts of reasons, but I believe that's the idea.

 

[Texconsinite]

Theres a situation here that may be related to what you are talking about, and perhaps a more specific way to accomplish what you are trying to do, with significantly less capital outlay

A 27 hole country club here in town fell on hard times about a decade ago (urban flight & whatnot), and the golf course land was bought by a developer, with the intend of turning the fairways into condos. However, because the land was zoned for "golf use only" they needed a variance to do this

The neighborhood association liked having green space in their back yards, and made sure the variance was not granted, so the property went into receivership, and was bought by the city, and parts of it used for flood-control areas (a bayou runs throuth the course)

Now, our club has gotten approval to build disc golf courses on it, with the support of the neighborhood. So, several good things:

1) Though city owns it and is contracted to maintain and mow it, its NOT park land, which makes some rules less tricky
2) (in this case)Golf Course land is already zoned for GOLF, so easier to get approval for disc GOLF
3) Strong HOA of ppl who bought there to live on a golf course, thats supports having GOLF in their backyards, and keeping fairways mowed and looking nice, to help push through.
4) Club willing/able to provide and install baskets, etc
5) Drainage is excellent (a big issue in Houston, many DG courses dont)

So, I like where your head is at Jeff, but rather than look for undeveloped land on the outskirts, why not repeat this model and try to turn bankrupt ball golf course land taken over by the city into DG courses, or maybe convince a neighborhood to "invest' in some blighted land thats an eyesore, to turn into a DG course.

There's LOTS of ball golf courses that are struggling/going under, leaving tons of available green space to be developed into "something" If theres a strong community/neighborhood/HOA in that area, those people will be looking for anything besides tall grass, dumping, and criminal activities that go along with having such a big piece of vacant wilderness right behind their houses.
Especially if the club is raising the money to install course, they might get behind something like that.

Unlike city parks where other park users may fight disc golf being there, unused land like this

If the HOA gets on your side, then they influence their local representative who hopefully can pull some strings and get you official approval.

I'm making it sound easy, but its not. One of our guys worked tirelessly for several years to make this happen in our case, but at least you know its been done before.

BTW the courses are great. Heres a link to the 2 we've installed sofar (with room for at least 1 more) http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=7415
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=7530

I've played a lot of DG courses that use "repurposed" land, or space that undesirable for other uses for some reason or another.
-The grounds of an old Prison
-Flood control areas, perhaps where neighborhoods got wiped out and city doesnt want them to be rebuilt
-Neighborhoods in-town that have gren space, but are "on hard times" (not saying the middle of the hood) due to suburban flight (assuming your city is starting to revitalize downtown areas) people in these area welcome the traffic a DG course brings moreseo than NIMBYs next to suburban parks might
-Parks in the middle of industrial areas/airport
-Former landfills

Just some ideas- since municipalities want to collect property taxes, they know they wont collect any off vacant lots, so its also in their best interest to keep property values up for the tax base. The "undesirable" land may not be what you woudl pick, but if it cant be used for much else, less likely the course gets pushed out.