80playedin10states
Banned
nice post once again cg...take a lesson from it and never look down on someone for knowing the rules during a tourney..
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DGLO am's shenanigans
- Thread starter JCthrills
- Start date
kyflash
Birdie Member
At what point would you stop bending the rules?
Late from lunch?
Two meter rule?
Missed mando?
What happened is unfortunate. But it is YOUR responsibility to make sure you eat if you think that you ought to eat. It is YOUR responsibility to change your socks if you think you ought to. It is YOUR responsibility to make it to YOUR assigned pad at the correct time.
~Jesse
I posted on this forum hoping to get some feedback from players outside of the local area. Am I justified in being this upset days after the tourney? I managed to somehow let it go & still bang 9 birds through 24 holes & take a tie for 7th place (10th was last cash I think) But, the penalty cost me 2nd place outright, a trophy (pretty nice wood carved one) and $100 in merch, not to mention again the momentum swing that might have given me a few more strokes needed to stay with the eventual winner that was also on the second card with me.
Hopefully you learned that in this world, nobody will look after better than yourself.
Late from lunch?
Two meter rule?
Missed mando?
What happened is unfortunate. But it is YOUR responsibility to make sure you eat if you think that you ought to eat. It is YOUR responsibility to change your socks if you think you ought to. It is YOUR responsibility to make it to YOUR assigned pad at the correct time.
~Jesse
I posted on this forum hoping to get some feedback from players outside of the local area. Am I justified in being this upset days after the tourney? I managed to somehow let it go & still bang 9 birds through 24 holes & take a tie for 7th place (10th was last cash I think) But, the penalty cost me 2nd place outright, a trophy (pretty nice wood carved one) and $100 in merch, not to mention again the momentum swing that might have given me a few more strokes needed to stay with the eventual winner that was also on the second card with me.
Hopefully you learned that in this world, nobody will look after better than yourself.
Kerplunk, the alcohol rule is like the late-for-start rule. Many people would like to lighten up on the alcohol, but how do you set a rule, let alone enforce a rule, about how much alcohol is too much. I once played with someone who was drinking a beer in the 4th round, and I just let it go. As the round went on, that beer seemed to really be having an effect on him. With about 3 holes left, I looked in his bag; it had 3 discs and a dozen empty beercans. He was sloshed.
The heck with being a serious sport. This affected everyone else's enjoyment of the tournament. And potentially could have had disc golf removed from the park, if he'd been caught.
I'm of the opinion that we start with the rules, but some discretion can be used by the referees, generally the other members of the group but also the TD. This happens in other sports, with certain rules, as well as life outside of sports, as consideration is given to the rule and circumstances. If a player in my group arrived at the tee just as we were walking off, in an event where lunch had been cut short, I think I'd let him go ahead and tee off out of order. But I've no complaint with those who call the rule as written.
The heck with being a serious sport. This affected everyone else's enjoyment of the tournament. And potentially could have had disc golf removed from the park, if he'd been caught.
I'm of the opinion that we start with the rules, but some discretion can be used by the referees, generally the other members of the group but also the TD. This happens in other sports, with certain rules, as well as life outside of sports, as consideration is given to the rule and circumstances. If a player in my group arrived at the tee just as we were walking off, in an event where lunch had been cut short, I think I'd let him go ahead and tee off out of order. But I've no complaint with those who call the rule as written.
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2007
- Messages
- 4,525
The way the PDGA rules are set up there is wiggleroom around the rigid/harsh "letter of the law" giving flexibility for strange/unanticiapted circumstances. It is up to the TD (or designated official) to rule on how to add this flexiblity. Here is how you approach these sort of appeals:
Rule 803.01.C
desire to the group.
IMO, with this being a 1 day B-Tier AM event and this happening in the Intermediate division, there is reason why a TD might offer some flexibility on this sort of thing (more so if it were a C-Tier).
Also IMO, 4 strokes is very harsh in how this circumstance played out compared to almost all other rules infractions that are only 1-2 stroke penalties. Maybe the TD would have granted some leniency had this procedure been followed.
Rule 803.01.C
(2) To appeal the group's or an offi cial's
ruling: A set of provisional throws may
be taken to complete a hole pursuant to
803.01 D(3) when the player disagrees
with the majority group decision and
an offi cial is not readily available, or if
the player wishes to appeal the decision
of an offi cial. The scores from both sets
of throws shall be recorded. The proper
ruling and score are then determined by
the director at the end of the round.
D. Appeals:
(1) When a group cannot reach a majority
decision regarding a ruling, the benefit of
the doubt shall be given to the thrower.
However, any player may seek the ruling
of an offi cial, and the offi cial's ruling shall
supersede the group's ruling. Any player
desiring an appeal of the group's decision
shall promptly and clearly express that
ruling: A set of provisional throws may
be taken to complete a hole pursuant to
803.01 D(3) when the player disagrees
with the majority group decision and
an offi cial is not readily available, or if
the player wishes to appeal the decision
of an offi cial. The scores from both sets
of throws shall be recorded. The proper
ruling and score are then determined by
the director at the end of the round.
D. Appeals:
(1) When a group cannot reach a majority
decision regarding a ruling, the benefit of
the doubt shall be given to the thrower.
However, any player may seek the ruling
of an offi cial, and the offi cial's ruling shall
supersede the group's ruling. Any player
desiring an appeal of the group's decision
shall promptly and clearly express that
desire to the group.
IMO, with this being a 1 day B-Tier AM event and this happening in the Intermediate division, there is reason why a TD might offer some flexibility on this sort of thing (more so if it were a C-Tier).
Also IMO, 4 strokes is very harsh in how this circumstance played out compared to almost all other rules infractions that are only 1-2 stroke penalties. Maybe the TD would have granted some leniency had this procedure been followed.
803.01 C is intended to protect a player where interpretation of a rule is unclear under a given situation, and a certified official is not available to rule. It is not intended to be used every time a player disagrees with the rules. In this case the rule is pretty clear. Unfortunate, but clear.
I'll give you an example of where a provisional is justified that happened to me recently. While playing Central Park in Atlanta at the Atlanta Open NT, I threw a shot on hole 1 that landed on top of a concrete Curb Inlet (This is a storm drain structure, w/a manhole in it). The program stated that all concrete was OB, but that the grass line adjacent to the curb was the ob line. In this case, the inlet structure was a rectangular area jutting into the grass from the street, and I was convinced that the intent was that the curb/grass line was the OB line - and not this random 4'x12' area of concrete - so I played a provisional - asked the TD after the round - and ended up not having to take a penalty (which my group thought I should at the time).
803.01C is not a magic pill that allows for bending the rules. It is a safety net intended to clarify situations not clearly covered, or correctly interpreted by players during play.
This is where actually CARRYING a rule book, and KNOWING what's in it can assist you during tournament play. This is why it's called a TOURNAMENT and not organized casual play. Once you enter a sanctioned tournament, you are defacto agreeing to follow all the rules in the rule book. Do yourself a favor and carry one with you. Do yourself a bigger favor and learn what's in it - I guarantee you will reap benefits from that knowlege in the future.
I'll give you an example of where a provisional is justified that happened to me recently. While playing Central Park in Atlanta at the Atlanta Open NT, I threw a shot on hole 1 that landed on top of a concrete Curb Inlet (This is a storm drain structure, w/a manhole in it). The program stated that all concrete was OB, but that the grass line adjacent to the curb was the ob line. In this case, the inlet structure was a rectangular area jutting into the grass from the street, and I was convinced that the intent was that the curb/grass line was the OB line - and not this random 4'x12' area of concrete - so I played a provisional - asked the TD after the round - and ended up not having to take a penalty (which my group thought I should at the time).
803.01C is not a magic pill that allows for bending the rules. It is a safety net intended to clarify situations not clearly covered, or correctly interpreted by players during play.
This is where actually CARRYING a rule book, and KNOWING what's in it can assist you during tournament play. This is why it's called a TOURNAMENT and not organized casual play. Once you enter a sanctioned tournament, you are defacto agreeing to follow all the rules in the rule book. Do yourself a favor and carry one with you. Do yourself a bigger favor and learn what's in it - I guarantee you will reap benefits from that knowlege in the future.
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2007
- Messages
- 4,525
I am not saying this any sort of magic pill to bend the rules. I am saying it is the proper route to APPEAL certain rulings.
You say provisionals are there in "situations not clearly covered". that is EXACTLY what this situation was: The length of lunch that deviated from normal situations was not properly covered in the players meeting making it so that proper arrangements with his car riders.
StymieDidIt
Par Member
WOW! I've got say I'm a little shocked at how many are "rules are rules" people, especially considering the offense and the consequences. Am I the only one that would have a hard time looking this guy in the eye, if the TD approached me asked if it was OK for him to throw, and say NO, F him and his 4 stroke penalty, he had his 30 seconds and he showed up several seconds too late? I'm all for playing by the rules, I'm sure they're all there for a reason. But...this doesn't seem like one of those "rules" that can't have interpretation or consideration from the TD. And 4 strokes....? HOLY CRAP! I don't want a speeding ticket for doing 27mph in a 25 mph zone. Yeah, I'm breaking the law but....seriously. I think there has to be some discretion. JMO.
I would hope the cop would show discretion in not ticketing you for 27 in a 25....but if I were the judge and there was no question that you were doing 27 in a 25, I'd have to find you guilty.
If by "rules are rules" you mean applying rules without discretion, there aren't that many, either on this thread or in disc golf. Notice the footfaults and 30-second violations that aren't called.
If "rules are rules" means rules can be called and, if called correctly, should be upheld, well, I guess I'm one of those. Call me on a footfault, and I'll take the warning and throw again.
If by "rules are rules" you mean applying rules without discretion, there aren't that many, either on this thread or in disc golf. Notice the footfaults and 30-second violations that aren't called.
If "rules are rules" means rules can be called and, if called correctly, should be upheld, well, I guess I'm one of those. Call me on a footfault, and I'll take the warning and throw again.
kerplunk
Double Eagle Member
I wish it would become acceptable to call people on the 30 second thing though. Some people take ENTIRELY too long to take their shot. One of the many things that makes DG better than BG in my opinion- limited time to take a shot.
StymieDidIt
Par Member
No, I understand, and I certainly don't want to begrudge anyone that believes in Law/rules by the books, but as a competetive person myself, I could take no pride in having one of my group assessed this penalty if the TD saw this as a discretionary issue(which I do believe it should have been), and gave the members of our group the choice. That would also apply if I were the member of any other group in the event. I've been to too many events where a PA system is used to annouce matches, bouts, etc, and in my humble opinion, there are too many variables that could affect whether or not a player can hear the address if there is no redundant sytem in place, like player boards and match trees. I've see a lot of people miss their call for silly reasons. So, would you waive the penalty, or allow your playing partner to take the penalty? It doesn't appear that, in this situation at least, it affected the round in any way?
I think you're missing the point Stymiedidit.
Much of the leniency being displayed here reflects an attitude that implies; "unless there is a blatant attempt at cheating - I'm gonna cut the guy some slack - and not apply a penalty for fear of being labeled a dick or a rules nazi".
Is it ever pleasant to see one of your fellow competitors penalized? Of course not.
Do players unintentionally break the rules? All the time.
Allowing leniency, or group interpretation, that differs from that in the rule book has several negative effects. It gives people the expectation that they aren't "necessarily" going to be held to the letter of the rule book - that there are exceptions (this leads to the worst sort of "entitlement" attitude possible.). It leads to people believing in rules that aren't actually rules (show a new tournament player the wrong way to do something, and what will they do the next time?) It leads to attitudes such as those displayed on this thread - that those that DO enforce the rules, are in some way bad people, uncaring, or only out to screw the offender (and that just aint right).
Couple them all together and what you get is a whole group of people unwilling to call ANYTHING.
At what point do you stand up and say -sorry - you broke a rule, this is the penalty? I gotta say that point is when you plop down your entry fee. If you want to play by only some of the rules, or only the ones you think are worth a s&&t - don't enter tournaments.
Much of the leniency being displayed here reflects an attitude that implies; "unless there is a blatant attempt at cheating - I'm gonna cut the guy some slack - and not apply a penalty for fear of being labeled a dick or a rules nazi".
Is it ever pleasant to see one of your fellow competitors penalized? Of course not.
Do players unintentionally break the rules? All the time.
Allowing leniency, or group interpretation, that differs from that in the rule book has several negative effects. It gives people the expectation that they aren't "necessarily" going to be held to the letter of the rule book - that there are exceptions (this leads to the worst sort of "entitlement" attitude possible.). It leads to people believing in rules that aren't actually rules (show a new tournament player the wrong way to do something, and what will they do the next time?) It leads to attitudes such as those displayed on this thread - that those that DO enforce the rules, are in some way bad people, uncaring, or only out to screw the offender (and that just aint right).
Couple them all together and what you get is a whole group of people unwilling to call ANYTHING.
At what point do you stand up and say -sorry - you broke a rule, this is the penalty? I gotta say that point is when you plop down your entry fee. If you want to play by only some of the rules, or only the ones you think are worth a s&&t - don't enter tournaments.
Personally, as one of the other players in the group, I would have let him throw.
If I were TD and someone appealed to me, I'd uphold the ruling of the group.
With the possible exception, in this very particular case as described in the original post, if I felt as TD I was culpable due to a poor job of handling the lunch break. We have only the original poster's version of events, of course, but (1) if lunch was less than the customary hour, for no particular reason, (2) if no mention of a short lunch had been made at the player's meeting, and (3) if no proper notice was posted---almost everywhere I've played, a sign has been posted indicating the next tee time---then I'd use or abuse my power as TD to say it was partly my fault, no penalty.
If I were TD and someone appealed to me, I'd uphold the ruling of the group.
With the possible exception, in this very particular case as described in the original post, if I felt as TD I was culpable due to a poor job of handling the lunch break. We have only the original poster's version of events, of course, but (1) if lunch was less than the customary hour, for no particular reason, (2) if no mention of a short lunch had been made at the player's meeting, and (3) if no proper notice was posted---almost everywhere I've played, a sign has been posted indicating the next tee time---then I'd use or abuse my power as TD to say it was partly my fault, no penalty.
Craigg
Though I'm in general agreement and wish the culture of disc golf were stricter adherence to the rules, in most sports there are many rules in which discretion or judgement is used in the application of the rule.
Though I'm in general agreement and wish the culture of disc golf were stricter adherence to the rules, in most sports there are many rules in which discretion or judgement is used in the application of the rule.
Yes I understand that David - all I am saying is that we have been, and continue to develop a rules culture focused not on how to apply the rules - but whether or not to apply them.
In this case - the original poster should have made an appeal to the TD before turning in his scorecard - if there was any real question about the penalty. Stewing on it for days - and then seeking a sympathetic ear by placing blame on everybody but himself does nothing more than promote the idea that people who enforce the rules are the offenders. That's just not right.
In this case - the original poster should have made an appeal to the TD before turning in his scorecard - if there was any real question about the penalty. Stewing on it for days - and then seeking a sympathetic ear by placing blame on everybody but himself does nothing more than promote the idea that people who enforce the rules are the offenders. That's just not right.
StymieDidIt
Par Member
Craig-
One last point, and then we can, as they say, agree to disagree. Maybe the reason I'm being so pig headed about this, is because there was really no cheating or personal gain. There was no foot fault, no OB, no violation of any rule that compromised the integrity of the game or affected the round for others. We didn't have Judge Smails out on the course "improving his lie". Individuals that stretch the limits of the rules for their own betterment(word?) or break them all together, are scum bags, no doubt. Thanks for your opinion. Have a great day!
One last point, and then we can, as they say, agree to disagree. Maybe the reason I'm being so pig headed about this, is because there was really no cheating or personal gain. There was no foot fault, no OB, no violation of any rule that compromised the integrity of the game or affected the round for others. We didn't have Judge Smails out on the course "improving his lie". Individuals that stretch the limits of the rules for their own betterment(word?) or break them all together, are scum bags, no doubt. Thanks for your opinion. Have a great day!
Yes we can agree to disagree
Where I would love to give benefit of the doubt - and believe that as you put it there was "no personal gain", or "no violation of any rule that compromised the integrity of the game or affected the round for others," that is plainly not the case.
Dude missed his tee time. The rules say there's a penalty for that.
Not applying a penalty would affect standings for everyone within 4 strokes of his score. How does that not include personal gain, or not affect others?
Is every penalty in the rule book applicable to actions taken during play? Is every penalty a punishment for cheating? The unfortunate answer is no. I had to penalize someone last weekend for adding their scorecard wrong. They obviously didn't do it on purpose - but ultimately it was THEIR responsibility to make sure it was correct before handing it in. Responsibility is the key to this unfortunate set of events as well.
Truly - your opinion does make a difference - I am curious why you believe what you've stated.
To play Rules Advocate for a moment, some of the rules are for the quality of play, not fairness of competition.
Do you have a rule that players must be at the tee in time to start, or not?
If not, imagine players wandering up whenever they want to. What if 3 players had been late instead of 1, and only 1 player there at the start? Imagine players wandering in as the group is halfway through, or has finished the hole. If only 2 players show up on time, not knowing if the late players are just late or not coming at all, those 2 then must scramble to join another group (they shouldn't play as a twosome). Surely, the tardy players are affecting the timely ones.
So you need a rule saying people should be there at the start. In some sports, failure to do so is a forfeiture. Ours says the late player (1) does not play the hole and (2) takes a penalty which pretty much exceeds the worst score he's likely to get on the hole. We could have a rule with a separate, lesser penalty for players who show up late, but before their group has finished the hole (say, play the hole, +2). But we don't, and probably shouldn't.
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2009
- Messages
- 630
While I agree it is a sucky situation all around, what I would have done if I were the OP is put my lunch and my socks in my bag and run.
You can nibble lunch every few holes and you can sit down on the first bench you come to and change your socks, no? I mean, I haven't been in a real tourney, but no one seems to be moving all that fast in the minis I've been in and the tournament I watched. Heck, half the players were pulling out portable chairs to sit on while others on their card were driving. Surely there's time to change your socks in there somewhere.
You can nibble lunch every few holes and you can sit down on the first bench you come to and change your socks, no? I mean, I haven't been in a real tourney, but no one seems to be moving all that fast in the minis I've been in and the tournament I watched. Heck, half the players were pulling out portable chairs to sit on while others on their card were driving. Surely there's time to change your socks in there somewhere.
I agree that most of this is the OPs fault -- short lunch didn't affect everyone else, apparently. Yes, lunch was shorter than normal, but everyone else dealt with it. And -- even by the OPs admission -- it sounds like the problem was that players in a different division didn't get back to the car in time, so he couldn't get to his lunch when he wanted it. Had the OP had keys, he would have been fine. It's not the TD responsibility to make sure everyone has keys to get into the car they road in. It's not the TD responsibility to make sure everyone has access to lunch.
I'm not trying to be an a******, but I think situations outside of the TD control that affect one person don't dictate exceptions to a rule, or whining.
I've almost missed a tourney because of a flat tire. I almost missed day two of a different event because someone drinking too much borrowed my keys to get something out of my car and broke the key off in the lock by accident.
I've missed lunch before because I rode with friends and couldn't get into a vehicle, and just made do with the granola/fruit bars in my bag.
Lessons learned: always go prepared -- take some extra snacks to get you through the day. And if possible, have extra keys. I make sure to have extra keys anytime I give someone a ride so that we both have access to the car all day -- I encourage others to do the same when I ride with them. It just makes things easier. Often, an unfortunate situation is the best way to learn.
Not to be too hard on the OP: It does sound like the players on the card were following the rules with a fervor not usually found on the disc golf course. I've had people run up late or miss their tee-order on the first hole, and I don't think I've ever had a group that added penalty strokes to the latecomer if we were still playing the hole... If there is no way it will slow play to let the latecomer throw, I've always been in groups that let them throw -- and I think a group would be especially lenient at times with a short lunch. The players do sound like they were -- while within the letter of the rules -- still being less than helpful to the OP, and not acting in the manner most common to disc golfers.
I'm someone who would much rather beat other players based on skill rather than on technicalities. I'll happily bring extra granola bars and share water or other sustenance with other players who need it. If I have an extra towel and it's a muddy/rainy day, they are welcome to have it for the round. At a SuperClass event, I made a point of bringing extra Zephyrs and Superheros to loan out to local pros I was competing with who may not have had one -- I didn't want to win just because I was using better equipment.
I am all for competition -- but it should be skill. OBs and the 6-meter rule, I'm fine with -- avoiding OB is part of course management and is a skill set. However, arriving 45-seconds late to a round has nothing to do with disc golf skill. So I'd vote to be kind as a player on the card.
And I'd tell the OP to adopt the boyscout motto for his next tourney -- especially riding with other people: be prepared.
I'm not trying to be an a******, but I think situations outside of the TD control that affect one person don't dictate exceptions to a rule, or whining.
I've almost missed a tourney because of a flat tire. I almost missed day two of a different event because someone drinking too much borrowed my keys to get something out of my car and broke the key off in the lock by accident.
I've missed lunch before because I rode with friends and couldn't get into a vehicle, and just made do with the granola/fruit bars in my bag.
Lessons learned: always go prepared -- take some extra snacks to get you through the day. And if possible, have extra keys. I make sure to have extra keys anytime I give someone a ride so that we both have access to the car all day -- I encourage others to do the same when I ride with them. It just makes things easier. Often, an unfortunate situation is the best way to learn.
Not to be too hard on the OP: It does sound like the players on the card were following the rules with a fervor not usually found on the disc golf course. I've had people run up late or miss their tee-order on the first hole, and I don't think I've ever had a group that added penalty strokes to the latecomer if we were still playing the hole... If there is no way it will slow play to let the latecomer throw, I've always been in groups that let them throw -- and I think a group would be especially lenient at times with a short lunch. The players do sound like they were -- while within the letter of the rules -- still being less than helpful to the OP, and not acting in the manner most common to disc golfers.
I'm someone who would much rather beat other players based on skill rather than on technicalities. I'll happily bring extra granola bars and share water or other sustenance with other players who need it. If I have an extra towel and it's a muddy/rainy day, they are welcome to have it for the round. At a SuperClass event, I made a point of bringing extra Zephyrs and Superheros to loan out to local pros I was competing with who may not have had one -- I didn't want to win just because I was using better equipment.
I am all for competition -- but it should be skill. OBs and the 6-meter rule, I'm fine with -- avoiding OB is part of course management and is a skill set. However, arriving 45-seconds late to a round has nothing to do with disc golf skill. So I'd vote to be kind as a player on the card.
And I'd tell the OP to adopt the boyscout motto for his next tourney -- especially riding with other people: be prepared.
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