DGLO am's shenanigans

[Randy Sharp]

In a recent tournament, we didn't get a full hour either and one guy was running late for the second round. He was listed last on the lead card. In order to strictly abide by the rules and still give the late guy a chance to make it, I talked the others on my card into taking his full 30 seconds to throw, but not throwing. We waited another few seconds (just to be sure) before giving him an Excessive Time warning (Rule 801.03), then he held off as long as possible on his "official" 30 seconds.

This scenerio gave the late player an extra three minutes to show up. He barely made it. We broke no rules and, in the spirit of sportsmanship, gave the fellow every opportunity to show up on time. Had he not made it on time, we certainly could have a clear conscience about his being penalized according to the rules.

 

[Randy Sharp]

Keep in mind, the 4-stroke penalty is not assessed until his name is called and 30 seconds has passed. We used the rulebook on ourselves to help delay the calling of his name. We were not under "his" rule because we were present, according to rule 804.02.

 

[StymieDidIt]

Ok, I lied, I'm back with more jibberish and useless wisdom.

I'm beating my head against the wall, because I just don't get it. I mean, I get the whole rule thingy about being late yada, yada, yada. Good rule. Now, I didn't write the rule, so it wouldn't be fair for me to suppose the essence of the rule, but somehow I don't think it was written into "law" as to punish the player that actually walks to the tee box as his group is exiting. I wager to surmise, that it may have something to do with players showing up "whenever", as was mentioned by some others regarding this topic. This is probably why the penalty is SO steep. To deter players from delaying and disrupting the tournament. Understand, these are only my opinions, and the rules clearly state what is appropriate action. If the the masses of disc-golfers are accepting of these decisions, then sobeit, I stand alone. As I said earlier, if given the option, I'd let them play penalty free. I'd rather beat someone with skills rather than techicality. Thanks for the spirited debate!

 

[Dave242]

Now, I didn't write the rule, so it wouldn't be fair for me to suppose the essence of the rule, but somehow I don't think it was written into "law" as to punish the player that actually walks to the tee box as his group is exiting.

I do not know the exact reason for the rule or for the harshness of it in comparison to other rules infractions. I am thinking that a lot of it may have to do with comparisons to disc golf's much better known cousin. There, missing your tee time is an automatic DQ. I think the PDGA might have been trying to eke out a little more legitimacy and respect for our game while preserving a little of our laid back culture.

 

[StymieDidIt]

Ok, I lied, I'm back with more jibberish and useless wisdom.

I'm beating my head against the wall, because I just don't get it. I mean, I get the whole rule thingy about being late yada, yada, yada. Good rule. Now, I didn't write the rule, so it wouldn't be fair for me to suppose the essence of the rule, but somehow I don't think it was written into "law" as to punish the player that actually walks to the tee box as his group is exiting. I wager to surmise, that it may have something to do with players showing up "whenever", as was mentioned by some others regarding this topic. This is probably why the penalty is SO steep. To deter players from delaying and disrupting the tournament. Understand, these are only my opinions, and the rules clearly state what is appropriate action. If the the masses of disc-golfers are accepting of these decisions, then sobeit, I stand alone. As I said earlier, if given the option, I'd let them play penalty free. I'd rather beat someone with skills rather than techicality. Thanks for the spirited debate!

 

[StymieDidIt]

Wow, what's with the double post? Sorry guys.

 

[craigg]

If I recall the history of this rule correctly, it use to be a much smaller penalty - maybe just par +2. The argument was then broached that technically - a player could show up late or miss a really hard hole (par 4 or 5) and get a lesser score by not playing the hole than those that played it - and just didn't play it well. I don't recall the exact set up of the rule in the past - but the extreme penalty was made for seemingly good reasons.
It was about the same time that the rule for a late score card was changed - which used to be a 6 stroke penalty. This one was reduced under the thought that normally it's just one person resonsible for taking off without turning in the card and it wasn't fair to punish the whole group.

So while we all agree that penalizing someone else - or being penalized sucks all the way around, it's part of having a self policing sport - and it's everyones responsibility to live up to rules enforcement if we are to have a level playing field. Selective rules enforcement is fair to no one. The day there are officials on every hole watching every throw, is the day players start calling themselves on rules infractions like you occasionally see in PGA events. If instead we want to continue to have our easy going atmosphere at our sanctioned events - we have to be responsible enough to suck it up and make the hard calls - even if it sucks.

I say its better to make a fair call and have a player learn a lesson and avoid future infractions then it is to vilify those that try to play by the rules.

 

[ERicJ]

Okay, I'm late to this party and I come down on the side of the debate that Craig & David are supporting. But I'll bring up a couple points that haven't been made yet (I think).

i was tied for 3rd place overall & top of the second card.

Top of the card means he was supposed to be the first to tee off.

... he had his 30 seconds and he showed up several seconds too late?

He wasn't "several seconds" too late. He was probably a "couple minutes" too late as he should have been first and everyone else had thrown and was walking off when he got there.

... because there was really no cheating or personal gain. There was no foot fault, no OB, no violation of any rule that compromised the integrity of the game or affected the round for others!

Not sure why you say there was no personal gain when you're arguing to give one player more break time than the others so he can eat his lunch and change his socks.

 

[ERicJ]

If I recall the history of this rule correctly, it use to be a much smaller penalty - maybe just par +2. The argument was then broached that technically - a player could show up late or miss a really hard hole (par 4 or 5) and get a lesser score by not playing the hole than those that played it - and just didn't play it well.

And that is exacerbated by lax TD's who list every hole as a Par 3. Take a tough hole that should be a Par 5, but the TD has called everything a Par 3, add in rainy & windy conditions and players could easily chose to show up "late" for their hole and take the 7 while players who play the hole could be carding 8's and 9's....

 

[StymieDidIt]

Okay, I'm late to this party and I come down on the side of the debate that Craig & David are supporting. But I'll bring up a couple points that haven't been made yet (I think).



Top of the card means he was supposed to be the first to tee off.




He wasn't "several seconds" too late. He was probably a "couple minutes" too late as he should have been first and everyone else had thrown and was walking off when he got there.




Not sure why you say there was no personal gain when you're arguing to give one player more break time than the others so he can eat his lunch and change his socks.

Well, if you need to argue that lunch, socks, and a couple minutes is a personal gain(even though the other players probably ate lunch and changed socks, as well. They just didn't get caught out in the parking lot), then maybe you need to reevaluated your competetive spirit. It seems a little petty to me. Wow, I 'd hate to have to use that as a crutch.

 

[craigg]

Just curious Stymie, but do you actually play in DG tournaments? And if so - for how long and in what division? Your profile is empty - so it's a little hard to understand where you're coming from. The only reference you give about event experience seems to be about some other sort of competition.

Not that that's all together a bad thing. I'm just not understanding how you equate "competitive spirit" with selective application of the rules.

I'm all about earning your spot on the leaderboard by posting the best score you can, and have that be the primary determining factor in how you place in the field. But the reality of tournament play is that there are sometimes other things that can affect your posted score - that have nothing to do with your thrown disc. Competitive spirit to me includes managing all of the above. Enforcing the rules shouldn't be looked at as a crutch for diminishing others, but as an important element of the games integrity.

 

[Cradical]

I think that it is far enough past the tournament that arguing for your score to the official would be pointless, therefore the best thing you can do now is just move on and learn never to be late again. I feel bad that all of those unlucky events took place, but I suppose that's just life.

I read something about alcohol on the courses during this thread. I know all of you "old" guys want to have some drinks while you're in the tournament, but then would you not allow players under 21 to play? Say you didn't know that someone on your card was under 21 and you gave him a beer for a hole in one, then you could both be charged.
I suppose I personally feel that no alcohol or any other illegal substance should be tollerated on the course, it just gives the sport a bad image.
Back to the point though, because he was first to throw, if he was even a minute late, he should get called. Because there is money involved, you have to call it by the book. If you don't like all the rules, you can play with friends who also don't like the rules.
To the guy that said he could take no pride in beating somebody if they had enforced this rule on that guy, I have to say I could take no pride if I won because nobody enforced a rule on me. You're a different kind of competitive if you have to cheat to win.

All in all, I feel bad that it happened and because it wasn't 100% your fault. I do not have all that much sympathy because you didn't do everything you could have to be early or on time. If you knew you were on a certain hole and knew how far away it was, you could have just watched your watch and made sure you got there by the 2 minute warning.

 

[biscoe]

Well, if you need to argue that lunch, socks, and a couple minutes is a personal gain(even though the other players probably ate lunch and changed socks, as well. They just didn't get caught out in the parking lot), then maybe you need to reevaluated your competetive spirit. It seems a little petty to me. Wow, I 'd hate to have to use that as a crutch.

as you say, the other players probably ate lunch and changed socks as well... they were all able to make it to the tee on time- where does personal accountability/culpability factor in?

 

[cc0049]

I'm someone who would much rather beat other players based on skill rather than on technicalities.

I agree. In one of the recent tournaments I played, one of the guys was running late to the first hole on the first round because of traffic and a miscommunication as to what hole he was supposed to start on. All of us on the card took our full 30 seconds on each shot to give him time to get there. He came running up just as we were about to putt out. We let him tee off and play the hole and we all holed out together. We did not asess him any stroke penalty and he went on to win the tournament in our division. I have no regrets about that. He beat us fair and square and I wouldn't want some rule book technicality to change that.

I'm more of a "spirit of the law" person as opposed to a "letter of the law" person. The rule is there to promote a timely flow of play. He was not trying to get away with anything. He did everything he could to get there on time. It should be up to the discretion of the players on the card.

If they want to enforce the rule, then they have every right to, but I personally would not be in favor of stroking someone over that. As long as players have to police themselves in disc golf tournaments, this is going to remain a dilemma...especially with the differing viewpoints on the issue.

 

[cc0049]

The day there are officials on every hole watching every throw, is the day players start calling themselves on rules infractions like you occasionally see in PGA events.

I agree. The honorable thing to do, would be to call the violation, whatever it may be, on yourself and not leave it up to your card to call you on it. A player should never expect to be given leniency and they shouldn't look down on those that play by the rules and enfore them.

 

[StymieDidIt]

Just curious Stymie, but do you actually play in DG tournaments? And if so - for how long and in what division? Your profile is empty - so it's a little hard to understand where you're coming from. The only reference you give about event experience seems to be about some other sort of competition.

No, actually I don't/haven't played in any DG tournaments at any level. I'm new to the sport, and to be honest, suck pretty bad. Does that somehow disqualify me from having an opinion on this topic? I've participated in many different sports at many different levels and each one seems to have it's own rule that's there for a reason, but left to subjectivity. Now, I'm not saying that this is a subjective thing, he WAS late. I'm saying that, if I'm an opposing player, if given the choice I'm not penalizing the player. To me, it would be wrong and a lack of sportsmanship on my part. I coudn't live with the fact that I took advantage of this legitimate rule, to impose a 4 stroke penalty on an opposing player that arrived at the tee as we were exiting. Did the violation affect the integrity of the game? Did it affect the players or the score? This is where I have a difference of opinion on the matter. I think, the infraction, as it's alleged to have happened, is something that could have easily been waived in the spirit of the game. The group hadn't finished the hole, they weren't putting out, and they weren't even on their second shots. They were literally just leaving the tee. Not to over simplify it, but this game is about thowing a disc into a basket in the least amount of shots, right? One last point. I'm not debating this on behalf of the player that shows up 10 - 15 minutes late or when the group is long gone. It's about this situation only.

If I want to post here anymore, do I need to change my screen name?
Have a great day everyone! Enjoy the weekend, hopefully throwing discs! It's been raining here for 2 freakin' weeks. Hopefully the weather is better wherever you are.

 

[craigg]

Just curious Stymie, but do you actually play in DG tournaments? And if so - for how long and in what division? Your profile is empty - so it's a little hard to understand where you're coming from. The only reference you give about event experience seems to be about some other sort of competition.

No, actually I don't/haven't played in any DG tournaments at any level. I'm new to the sport, and to be honest, suck pretty bad. Does that somehow disqualify me from having an opinion on this topic?

Certainly not - Your opinion is as legitimate as any other. Having played tournaments for over 20 years myself, I've learned that eventually you just have to make the call if you want to be "fair" to everybody. It's not always an easy thing to do - and yes - most times you don't "feel good about it", when issuing a penalty to another player.

But much like its wrong for someone to react negatively to someone making a call (calling them an a-hole or worse), it's just as wrong not to make the call at all.

When rules enforcement becomes emotional - the level playing field is sacrificed.

 

[Dave242]

No, actually I don't/haven't played in any DG tournaments at any level. I'm new to the sport, and to be honest, suck pretty bad. Does that somehow disqualify me from having an opinion on this topic? I've participated in many different sports at many different levels and each one seems to have it's own rule that's there for a reason, but left to subjectivity.
.......
To me, it would be wrong and a lack of sportsmanship on my part. I coudn't live with the fact that I took advantage of this legitimate rule, to impose a 4 stroke penalty on an opposing player that arrived at the tee as we were exiting.
.........
If I want to post here anymore, do I need to change my screen name?

You have no reason at all to feel bad or unwelcome here. Your whole approach fits in great with the spirit of the game and the spirit of disc sports.

Craig is a long time player (skilled at the highest levels), competitor, promotor and TD. He has a long reputation for being a purist when it comes to competition. Both of your voices and philosophies have a ton of merit and discussion about it (even spirited) is good. I would say a huge majority of players lean towards your approach.

Here is one thing that has not been talked about yet in this thread. That is the prestige level of events and how that plays into the subjectivity of rules. This is an unwritten thing, but a dynamic that almost everyone buys into.

On the low end of prestige is casual play. Then local weeklies, minis, PDGA C-tiers, B-Tiers, A-Tiers, National Tour events and finally Majors. The lower the prestige, the more subjectivity, the more the event is aimed at teaching new players, and the more the spirit of fun/enjoyment overshadows the spirit of competitiveness.

On the high end of prestige, competitiveness overshadows everything and the fun is found in that (some do not find that fun, but many do). Of course, good sportsmanship is still desired, but rules are called objectively and there are lots of officials around to make sure of this.

The event in this thread was a 1-day B-Tier....pretty much a middle of the road event in some areas of the country, but in other areas this is almost as prestigious an event as there will be for most players who do not travel far for competition. For this reason, I personally am fine with how things were called.....but am more miffed by the loosy-goosy nature the TD ran things (the more prestige, the tighter the ship should be run).

 

[craigg]

Good points Dave.
And thanks everybody for a civil discussion - nice to see on a message board - especially when there are differences of opinion.

 

[DavidSauls]

Good points Dave.
And thanks everybody for a civil discussion - nice to see on a message board - especially when there are differences of opinion.

ABSOLUTELY!

And yes, Stymie, your well-stated opinion is as valuable to this discussion as any other. I hope I never gave any impression otherwise.